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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23590393 - 08/29/16 03:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Even if he was, a preference isn't necessarily the same as wanting one to win.  If I'd prefer a broom in my ass to a chainsaw, that doesn't necessarily mean I want either.



Alright! I've said what I wanted to say about the statement; I concede this argument.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23590436 - 08/29/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
...is going to be a vote for more of the same -- the continued usurpation of the middle class and the concomitant growing inequality, as corporate profits continue to escalate out of control, while hardly any tax is paid on them.

Moreover, it's also going to be a vote for one of the most hawkish politicians on the scene today.  Massive saber-rattling across the globe, trillions spent on defense over several years, and more of the ethos that the U.S. is and should be the world's police.

I don't want Trump to win (at all), but I repeat: A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for the status quo, and the continued decline of American society.



Sorry for inadvertently hijacking this thread. My comment was meant to solicit a simple clarification. Bringing this back around to the topic, I think the first priority should be making sure everyone is safe in America. That means not going to war despite how fucked the world is, because then the evildoers retaliate and American civilians are killed or injured. To me, "defense" should mean defense. And yes, it's important enough to spend trillions of dollars on, but only if it's strictly for defensive purposes.

Is Trump planning to do something about the growing inequality? I can't imagine him taxing the rich either, considering how much he himself has benefited from the rich not being taxed, and wouldn't it be political suicide for a Republican to run on a proposal to do this? Wouldn't it be, like, socialism and all that evil stuff? But I don't know, I haven't been following the election that closely, has he said something to this effect?


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590438 - 08/29/16 03:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Your first priority is being safe?  That's really sad.


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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23590449 - 08/29/16 03:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Your first priority is being safe?  That's really sad.



Why?


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
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Offlineqman
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590472 - 08/29/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
...is going to be a vote for more of the same -- the continued usurpation of the middle class and the concomitant growing inequality, as corporate profits continue to escalate out of control, while hardly any tax is paid on them.

Moreover, it's also going to be a vote for one of the most hawkish politicians on the scene today.  Massive saber-rattling across the globe, trillions spent on defense over several years, and more of the ethos that the U.S. is and should be the world's police.

I don't want Trump to win (at all), but I repeat: A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote for the status quo, and the continued decline of American society.



Sorry for inadvertently hijacking this thread. My comment was meant to solicit a simple clarification. Bringing this back around to the topic, I think the first priority should be making sure everyone is safe in America. That means not going to war despite how fucked the world is, because then the evildoers retaliate and American civilians are killed or injured. To me, "defense" should mean defense. And yes, it's important enough to spend trillions of dollars on, but only if it's strictly for defensive purposes.

Is Trump planning to do something about the growing inequality? I can't imagine him taxing the rich either, considering how much he himself has benefited from the rich not being taxed, and wouldn't it be political suicide for a Republican to run on a proposal to do this? Wouldn't it be, like, socialism and all that evil stuff? But I don't know, I haven't been following the election that closely, has he said something to this effect?




What did Obama do with the growing inequality?  Made it the largest in over 80 years!!

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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: qman]
    #23590480 - 08/29/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Alyssa said:
Is Trump planning to do something about the growing inequality? I can't imagine him taxing the rich either, considering how much he himself has benefited from the rich not being taxed, and wouldn't it be political suicide for a Republican to run on a proposal to do this? Wouldn't it be, like, socialism and all that evil stuff? But I don't know, I haven't been following the election that closely, has he said something to this effect?




What did Obama do with the growing inequality?  Made it the largest in over 80 years!!



I acknowledge that; however, that's not the same as saying Trump would do something about it, that's just saying he wouldn't accelerate the growth of the inequality as fast as Obama. (To clarify, I'm a Trump supporter.)


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590481 - 08/29/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

First, government can't keep you safe.  That's a pipe dream.  In addition, anything the government does for the purpose of keeping you safe will inevitably make you somewhat less free. 

There are many things that government can do for us, but safety isn't one of them.  I want my government to build infrastructure and foster economic and personal growth.  I want it to set common rules and guidelines so that we can coexist peacefully.  I want it to repel invaders.

I don't want it to keep me safe.  I keep my dogs safe.  That means limiting their movement and their options.  Is that what you really want?


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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23590493 - 08/29/16 03:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
First, government can't keep you safe.  That's a pipe dream.  In addition, anything the government does for the purpose of keeping you safe will inevitably make you somewhat less free. 

There are many things that government can do for us, but safety isn't one of them.  I want my government to build infrastructure and foster economic and personal growth.  I want it to set common rules and guidelines so that we can coexist peacefully.  I want it to repel invaders.

I don't want it to keep me safe.  I keep my dogs safe.  That means limiting their movement and their options.  Is that what you really want?



Yes, it is. I'd rather be safe and less free than more free and unsafe. To me it's a no-brainer. Maybe the government can't do an adequate job given its current structure but it should still be the first priority.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590500 - 08/29/16 03:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:

Yes, it is. I'd rather be safe and less free than more free and unsafe.




So, you'd be okay with being locked in a metal box all day as long as you were safe in there?


Do you still not understand why I find your position to be sad?  Fear is an obsolete emotion in humans, but your life is ruled by it.


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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23590529 - 08/29/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Alyssa said:

Yes, it is. I'd rather be safe and less free than more free and unsafe.




So, you'd be okay with being locked in a metal box all day as long as you were safe in there?


Do you still not understand why I find your position to be sad?  Fear is an obsolete emotion in humans, but your life is ruled by it.



What? How is fear obsolete? And did I say "have no freedom"? No, I said "be less free". That means having the laws that keep us safe strictly enforced and intelligence gathered using any means available (within reason; obviously there's a balance that must be found), which means government needs to devote the necessary resources to this. Nice straw man.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590542 - 08/29/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The only way you'll ever be safe is by having zero freedom.  If you are free to have stairs in your house, you run the risk of dying on them.  If you have a television, you run the risk of eye damage.  If you have a choice of food you eat, you run the risk of food poisoning.


And fear is obsolete because we have a prefrontal cortex capable of rational thought.  We don't need to rely on fear to know that fire is dangerous and that we should avoid it.


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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23590597 - 08/29/16 04:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
The only way you'll ever be safe is by having zero freedom.  If you are free to have stairs in your house, you run the risk of dying on them.  If you have a television, you run the risk of eye damage.  If you have a choice of food you eat, you run the risk of food poisoning.



Alright, I see where you're going with this now. You seem to like interpreting things absolutely rigidly. It's obvious I didn't mean that, so all you've done is refuted an obviously incorrect interpretation of my statement. We can be reasonably safe and still have freedom, not like how it is now where our government basically leaves most of us to fend for ourselves and absolutely horrifying acts of violence are committed every day in this country.

Quote:

Enlil said:
And fear is obsolete because we have a prefrontal cortex capable of rational thought.  We don't need to rely on fear to know that fire is dangerous and that we should avoid it.



Rational thought tells me "I don't want my cells to be damaged", same as fear, but fear gets me moving faster.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590611 - 08/29/16 04:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

But you're far more likely to die by slipping on your stairs than by violence.  Wouldn't it be a more efficient use of governmental power to outlaw stairs?


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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23590670 - 08/29/16 04:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
But you're far more likely to die by slipping on your stairs than by violence.  Wouldn't it be a more efficient use of governmental power to outlaw stairs?



You think like a computer. Obviously not. I said reasonably safe; outlawing stairs isn't reasonable because we need them in order to traverse heights (when elevators or other means of transport aren't available and practical). I suppose it would be a good idea to install elevators in all new multi-story homes, but it's a question of cost, which affects people's lives. If that's a more important use of money than something else the government is paying for, they should fund it. Or maybe a better idea would be a PSA telling people to hold onto the railing, since I would imagine most deaths by falling down stairs involve not using it.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590693 - 08/29/16 04:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What is it you want the government to do to make you reasonably safe from violence?


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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23590780 - 08/29/16 04:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
What is it you want the government to do to make you reasonably safe from violence?



I didn't say just safe from violence, although that's the most important thing. I said safe in general, but in a reasonable manner.

For example I'm a big proponent of the government violating people's personal privacy. All phone calls should be recorded and transcribed by computers, for example. Obviously the police need more money because they're not able to do an effective job combating crime. Religious profiling needs to be used; the government needs to target Muslims for FGM, domestic violence and terrorism, but they can't because of the liberals. The military needs a big enough budget to effectively defend the country against inside as well as outside threats (the way I see it, the military should be the super-police). Homeless people need to be taken off the streets, fed and sheltered, because living without shelter and/or food is unsafe.

How long do I need to spend thinking of ways? Isn't it obvious how the government could be doing a lot more to keep us safe in reasonable ways? Maybe you disagree that they should, but debate my intended meaning, don't play semantics.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23590872 - 08/29/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:
Alright, I see where you're going with this now. You seem to like interpreting things absolutely rigidly. It's obvious I didn't mean that, so all you've done is refuted an obviously incorrect interpretation of my statement.



Welcome to Enlil country.  Most everyone else knew what you meant, and I suspect Enlil did too.

And Enlil, do you think the police are a complete waste of money?  Or do they make us more safe?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineAlyssa
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23590940 - 08/29/16 05:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Welcome to Enlil country.  Most everyone else knew what you meant, and I suspect Enlil did too.



OK, that's good. I do find it tiring to have what I'm saying picked apart like I'm programming a computer, but if that's his thing, more power to him I suppose.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa] * 1
    #23591304 - 08/29/16 07:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:
For example I'm a big proponent of the government violating people's personal privacy. All phone calls should be recorded and transcribed by computers, for example. Obviously the police need more money because they're not able to do an effective job combating crime. Religious profiling needs to be used; the government needs to target Muslims for FGM, domestic violence and terrorism, but they can't because of the liberals. The military needs a big enough budget to effectively defend the country against inside as well as outside threats (the way I see it, the military should be the super-police). Homeless people need to be taken off the streets, fed and sheltered, because living without shelter and/or food is unsafe.

How long do I need to spend thinking of ways? Isn't it obvious how the government could be doing a lot more to keep us safe in reasonable ways? Maybe you disagree that they should, but debate my intended meaning, don't play semantics.



If you think that's reasonable, there is no middle ground for a discussion.  What you're suggesting would require a constitutional amendment...one that I and most Americans would oppose.


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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23591309 - 08/29/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

And Enlil, do you think the police are a complete waste of money?  Or do they make us more safe?



Neither.  Police serve a purpose, but I wouldn't say that I'm any safer in the net analysis because of them.


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