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OfflineTameMe
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8665521 - 07/21/08 10:33 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

procreation

it is natural for us to protect our young. men and women compete for their survival where as children are dependent. 

children are cherished more (generally speaking). it's that simple. yet true.

we put time and money into our childrens lives...where as an adult is supposed to look after their own well being.

it's not hard for me to see why killing a child would seem worse of a crime.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: TameMe]
    #8665715 - 07/21/08 11:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

But, how does emotion factor in a measure for a logically equal "one for one" equation....?
It kind of goes against the "all men are created equal" thing - it doesn't make exceptions for the conditions of the men....!?

By your reasoning/examples, the murder of the father of a child is a little "more wrong" than the murder of a childless man....?
Because it would be the murder of that which the child is dependent - if I am correct in my extrapolation of your thoughts....
Which in my mind is less of a difference in degree of seeming "more wrong-ness" than my opening example....
........but it still **seems** like one is "more wrong" than the other....


I brought up an example in nature that goes with the protection of young when chatting with my buddy - to demonstrate that it is not just a human trait....
I said that if you were found by a mother bear to be "a threat" to it's cubs, it would try to kill you to protect them, but it wouldn't protect it's mate in the same way....
To which he responded, that a different bear wouldn't protect another bear's cubs if they were threatened....
We were both right, and bears aren't human....    :lol:
I think I need some sleep, my thoughts are getting jumbled....    :tongue:

Empathy is an interesting thing, rare, but some other animals do also share this "trait" - but in different ways....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineLion
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #8665828 - 07/21/08 11:27 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BUT all lives are unimportant actually...


This is a mere unfounded ideology IMO.  On what basis can you make that claim? 

Quote:

we just decide to assign them importance.


Of course we make that "decision".  We have no point of reference outside of our experience.  One could say that life is of supreme importance because it is all there is for us, right here and now.  There may be nothing after it, or the manner in which it's lived may determine what comes after.

Contact with highly evolved aliens, or God, or death, might tell us how important we really are in the scheme of things, but otherwise we are making blind guesses.

So if I say that life is important, can you provide evidence to the contrary?


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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OfflineMHbound
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: Cameron]
    #8666098 - 07/22/08 12:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Its true about them beating the shit out of child molesters, and so on. Unfortunately, I chose to goto jail rather than quit smoking pot. There was a rapist in the cell across, and he got the shit beat out of him numerous times. They had to put him in solitary.

Jail sucks. Proving a point by going isn't worth it. Don't do it.


--------------------

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OfflineAll We Perceive
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8666175 - 07/22/08 01:00 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Seems pretty simple to me.  Economically, as one lives their life, the value of said life decreases with each day.  This is often seen in risk assessment when valuing a person's life at 40 years old versus, say, 30 years old.  Thus, it seems only natural that a person would get more punishment for murdering a child rather than an adult.

One could obviously respond with the question: what about someone convicted of murdering someone aged 30 versus someone aged 90, who has cancer, and is about to die?  In response to this, I simply don't agree and would argue that how one is punished should be comparable to the age of the victim.


--------------------


"plus they atually think jambands are good or sumthing, so they clearly know absolutely nothing about music, clearly lol" -Bassfreak

Edited by All We Perceive (07/22/08 01:05 AM)

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Offlinedill705
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: All We Perceive]
    #8666560 - 07/22/08 04:18 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck that logic rules on this one. A life is a life and we should all get over the little ones who never knew what they were missing, a rotten existence filled with hate, hurt, and death.

I :heart: little kids though.


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Invisiblehamandcheese
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: dill705]
    #8666599 - 07/22/08 05:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It depends on the curcimstance..... i always say that judgement MUST be suspended until more infromation is available.

bear with on this, yes its an extreme exageration but i think i should prove my point.

Imagine your set in a chair with two triggers. and someoneone says to you i will present you with two people you MUST decide to kill one. If you do not decide to chose all three of you will be killed.

The two subjects are shown to you.
On your left is a young boy, somewhere between the age of 5 and 8
On the right is a man, who appears to be in his late 40s- early 50s

sure seems easy to pick the man, hes had a good forty+ years to live. he seems healthy he could live another 20 30 40 even 50 years. and  he could still  produce many children. the boy is so much younger, he should have a chance to live, and to do the things the man has had a chance to do already.

so you chose to take out the man.


before you pull the trigger sending him to his demise you are aloud to ask one and only one question about each of the subjects at hand.

I propose one of the best questions to the man might be, "what can and have you contributed to humanity as a whole."
And since the boy hasn't a clue what he will do perhap it would be wise to ask him if theyre are any conditions which might prevent him from living a full life.

chances are the answers would normally no very little to sway your decision but suppose the information u receive was rather extreme.

of the man you are told he is an researcher who has made many breakthoughs in the curing/treatment of many diseases and cancer.

and of the boy you learn he suffers from both AIDS and a severe case of cancer.

Now it is MUCH more wrong to take the life of the man for he could help so many people like the boy in this case, and it would be incredible short sighted to allow the boy to live only to die a horible death shortly after.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8666798 - 07/22/08 07:49 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
So, I have a conversation with a buddy of mine this past weekend and we meandered thru a lot of different subjects....
And on the subject of crime punishment, he said to the effect that he didn't understand why killing a child vs killing an adult would be viewed differently....
"Both are taking a life".....

But I found myself in an internal struggle with trying to make the act of killing of a child to be on the same level as the killing of an adult.....
What he had said ("both are taking a life") was right, but.....
Someone taking the life of a child just **seems** "more wrong" - a lot more wrong....

Just wondered what ya'll thought.....    :grin:


>^;;^<




They are the same as viewing different cultures ideas on this will attest.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #8667228 - 07/22/08 10:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
But, how does emotion factor in a measure for a logically equal "one for one" equation....?



It's not a one for one equation. The murder is hurting more than just the child (as does murder with anyone). It's how we gauge the "evil-ness" or his/her capability/willingness to inflict harm on society.
Quote:


It kind of goes against the "all men are created equal" thing - it doesn't make exceptions for the conditions of the men....!?




A grown man has lived a life already (although maybe short compared to others). Where as a child is still innocent,helpless, and doesn't know the evils of the world. The child hasn't had the same oppurtunity to live. By killing a child...the murderer is seen as someone that will go to any lengths, with disregard to anyones wellbeing, to get what he desires. This is not a desirable quality with in a society.

Quote:


By your reasoning/examples, the murder of the father of a child is a little "more wrong" than the murder of a childless man....?
Because it would be the murder of that which the child is dependent - if I am correct in my extrapolation of your thoughts....
Which in my mind is less of a difference in degree of seeming "more wrong-ness" than my opening example....
........but it still **seems** like one is "more wrong" than the other....




this isn't what i was saying. the child will still be taken care of by the other members in it's community.

I was talking about your original example. We put more effort into the survival/wellbeing of a child, than we sometimes do of our own lives. A child's life is cherished more than an average joe's life, in this society. Probably has something to do with procreation. 

Quote:


I brought up an example in nature that goes with the protection of young when chatting with my buddy - to demonstrate that it is not just a human trait....
I said that if you were found by a mother bear to be "a threat" to it's cubs, it would try to kill you to protect them, but it wouldn't protect it's mate in the same way....
To which he responded, that a different bear wouldn't protect another bear's cubs if they were threatened....
We were both right, and bears aren't human....    :lol:
I think I need some sleep, my thoughts are getting jumbled....    :tongue:

Empathy is an interesting thing, rare, but some other animals do also share this "trait" - but in different ways....


>^;;^<




a bear might not help another bear's cubs....
but humans differ in this. I would help protect my neighbors young.

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OfflineTameMe
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: dill705]
    #8667240 - 07/22/08 11:03 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

dill705 said:
Fuck that logic rules on this one. A life is a life and we should all get over the little ones who never knew what they were missing, a rotten existence filled with hate, hurt, and death.

I :heart: little kids though.




upon reading this my emotions feel a wrongness. How come they can't be missing a fruitful existence filled with love, kindness, and beauty?

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Offlinedill705
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: TameMe]
    #8667961 - 07/22/08 02:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Because life ends with death and suffering is all around us.

Think of the story of Siddhartha Gautama. :wink:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #23587604 - 08/28/16 04:58 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

The average American male lives to be 76, thus if you kill an 89 year old man, he owes you 13 years, but if you kill a 6 year old boy, you owe him 70 years.

Basic accounting. :shrug:


--------------------

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Invisibleiiilil
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Re: On Killing - Which is more Wrong..... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #23587617 - 08/28/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
The average American male lives to be 76, thus if you kill an 89 year old man, he owes you 13 years, but if you kill a 6 year old boy, you owe him 70 years.

Basic accounting. :shrug:




:lol: dam that's some cold shit Orgone...

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