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OfflinePhred
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reply to a tangent
    #2358466 - 02/20/04 10:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Rather than risk having mushmaster's thread titled "question for the socialists..." derailed, I opened this new thread to comment on Annapurna1's statements.

Annapurna1 writes:

in a more broader sense..a socialist is someone who does not draw an artificial distinction between "equality of opportunity" vs. "equality of results" and favours one over the other..but realizes that they are both one in the same..

How is equality of opportunity "one and the same" as equality of results? I have the same opportunity to invent a better mousetrap as anyone else. That doesn't mean I have the inclination or the ability to do so.

...and works to achieve this equality...

Indeed. The question here is -- by what method does the socialist "work" to achieve this equality of results? The answer is -- by forcefully seizing stuff from some and bestowing it upon others. If I lack the inclination or ability to make a better mousetrap, hey! no problem! The Socialists will confiscate one from someone who does and give it to me.

if you substitute the word "conservative" for "socialist" in the question..you will get an answer like "however many dollars you have in the bank"...

Unsupported allegation.

...many socialists actually agree with the conservatives on this point (being as it is..the "golden rule")..and as such assert that equality of rights can be achieved through the forcible redistribution of wealth...

You must mean "equality of results". Either all humans possess the same rights or some humans have less rights than others. In either case, forceful redistribution of goods is irrelevant. Giving people stuff is not equivalent to bestowing rights upon them.

...but this is not necessarily true...the degree of economic equality is a result more than it is a cause of the greater underlying egalitarianism or lack thereof...

Let's try to decipher this:

People have differing amounts of stuff due to the existence of an underlying egalitarianism? That can't be right, since the Oxford Dictionary of Current English defines egalitarian as "of or advocating equal rights for all". Let's move on.

People have different amounts of stuff because of a lack of underlying egalitarianism? Okay, this allegation (unlike the above) is not self-contradicting. Whether or not it is accurate is another thing entirely.

The reason people have differing amounts of stuff is not necessarily because some have more rights than others, it's because some have more abilities than others and/or are born into different circumstances than others and/or have more good luck than others and/or make better decisions than others.

...however in our current situation..equitable society cannot be achieved without aggressive action against the financial oligarchy...

Whether or not one buys this assertion depends on one's definition of "equitable society". And of course, using a secretly-acquired Socialist obfuscation decoder ring, we can translate "aggressive action against the financial oligarchy" into "violation of the rights of businessmen".

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2360454 - 02/20/04 07:25 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If she answers you I will be quite impressed. Where's Alex?


--------------------

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2360574 - 02/20/04 08:00 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

He's trying to find a non sequitur in his copy of Qadhafi's "The Green Book" which he can use to derail this thread.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Innvertigo]
    #2361428 - 02/21/04 12:04 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

wait!?

he's a she?


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: afoaf]
    #2361547 - 02/21/04 12:26 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Yup, with all the parts.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2361787 - 02/21/04 01:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How is equality of opportunity "one and the same" as equality of results? I have the same opportunity to invent a better mousetrap as anyone else. That doesn't mean I have the inclination or the ability to do so.




does the other guy own a machine shop??..if so..then then you can hardly claim to have the same opportunity to build a mousetrap..let alone a better one...

but to get back to the point..an equality of opportunity means that everyone starts from the same line...in order for that to be possible..there must be an equality of results...if both conditions are present..then both will follow naturally...if either is deficient..the result will be some form of neoconservatism..which might even call itself "socialism"...

Quote:

The reason people have differing amounts of stuff is not necessarily because some have more rights than others, it's because some have more abilities than others and/or are born into different circumstances than others




so does "equality of opportunity" exist in this case??...the answer would have to be a resounding no..for the above reasons...personally..i dont believe in the genetic inequality that you seem to be implying..it has not been proven nor disproven...and this debate prolly defines the difference between the "right" and the "left"...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2362093 - 02/21/04 02:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

but to get back to the point..an equality of opportunity means that everyone starts from the same line...

Which is of course impossible in the real world. Some people are short, some are tall. Some are more intelligent than others. Some are more ambitious than others. Some are born in benign environments where food grows on trees, others born in harsh ones where food is found under the ice.

..an equality of opportunity means that everyone starts from the same line...in order for that to be possible..there must be an equality of results...

You appear to have reversed cause and effect. Are you saying that in order for everyone to have the same opportunities they must achieve the same results? How does that follow?

...if both conditions are present..then both will follow naturally...

What on earth are you trying to say? That the conditions required for a given outcome depend on the outcome occurring? This is either a logical contradiction or a meaningless tautology. You refer to "equality of results". A result is not a condition. Your statement is meaningless.

...if either is deficient..the result will be some form of neoconservatism..which might even call itself "socialism"...

Let me make sure I understand what you are getting at here -- if some humans either lack the opportunity to accomplish something, or if they do indeed have that opportunity but what they do end up accomplishing turns out to be unequal with what other humans accomplish -- then the society in which they are operating is therefore a neoconservative one? And that this neoconservative society might well choose to call itself Socialist?

Sorry, but that is gibberish.

so does "equality of opportunity" exist in this case??

Opportunity to do what? The fact that Smith has the ability to lift three hundred pounds at a time and Jones has the ability to lift only two hundred pounds doesn't mean that Jones can't build a stone wall. All it means is that Smith's wall may end up being finished more rapidly. Economically speaking, then, Smith can acquire his wealth (i.e. the wall) more rapidly than Jones. While Jones is still working on his wall, Smith has gone on to start building his barn. In the same period of time -- due to his superior strength -- Smith has the ability to acquire more wealth than does Jones; hence the economic disparity between the two.

Similarly, the fact that Smith was born into an environment where mangoes grow on the trees in his back yard and Jones was born into an environment where seals breathe through holes in the ice doesn't mean that Jones cannot provide himself with the food he requires to further his existence. It just means that Smith needs to expend less effort (and time) acquiring his food than does Jones, therefore has more time and effort available to increase his wealth (economic standing) in ways other than stockpiling food.

...the answer would have to be a resounding no..for the above reasons...

Let's try this a different way. Put a blind human and a human with average vision in different areas of the same forest for an hour. The goal of each is to collect fallen branches to use as firewood. The blind human will not locate and collect as much firewood as the human with average vision. Each have the same opportunity to gather some firewood -- there are just as many fallen branches in the blind human's section of forest as there are in the section of forest in which the human with normal vision is working -- and both do gather some firewood; it's just that one is better at it than the other -- he ends up gathering more firewood in the same length of time. The only way to ensure "equality of results" in this case is to restrict in some way the ability of the human with average vision to gather firewood (analogous to government intervention in an economy through regulations and tariffs etc.), or to seize some of the firewood from him and hand it to the blind human (analogous to government intervention in the economy through various income redistribution schemes).

...personally..i dont believe in the genetic inequality that you seem to be implying..

Clearly you don't. But ignoring reality doesn't change it. "Wishing doesn't make it so".

...it has not been proven nor disproven...

Of course it has, and it can be verified through direct observation. Can every human on the planet lift a three hundred pound rock with his bare hands? Nope. Can some? Certainly. Can every human on the planet learn to speak fluently a foreign language in a few months? Nope. Can some? Certainly. I could go on for pages with various other examples.

..and this debate prolly defines the difference between the "right" and the "left"...

If by that you mean the "right" have a more complete grasp of the nature of reality than do the "left", then I won't disagree with you.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2362745 - 02/21/04 07:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2362748 - 02/21/04 07:20 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Opportunity to do what? The fact that Smith has the ability to lift three hundred pounds at a time and Jones has the ability to lift only two hundred pounds doesn't mean that Jones can't build a stone wall. All it means is that Smith's wall may end up being finished more rapidly. Economically speaking, then, Smith can acquire his wealth (i.e. the wall) more rapidly than Jones. While Jones is still working on his wall, Smith has gone on to start building his barn. In the same period of time -- due to his superior strength -- Smith has the ability to acquire more wealth than does Jones; hence the economic disparity between the two.



Cut off one of his arms or strap a 100 pound weight to his back. That'll fix him for having the audacity to be born stronger.  :lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2363660 - 02/21/04 02:23 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

your line of reasoning..aka neocon logic..can be conveniently summed up with a quote from david frum:

Quote:

Sometimes the right answer, when a person has a grievance against you, is to say: 'You're
completely mistaken; that grievance comes out of a completely wrong way of looking at the world and
you're just going to have to get over it'

"We're not going to change."




or put more simply.."its because we said so"...neocons can never be wrong..since they have conveniently ended the discussion before it began...

Quote:

Let's try this a different way. Put a blind human and a human with average vision in different areas of the same forest for an hour. The goal of each is to collect fallen branches to use as firewood. The blind human will not locate and collect as much firewood as the human with average vision. Each have the same opportunity to gather some firewood




they only have the same opportunity if you put a blindfold on the sighted person..or better yet..if you provide the blind person with a dog that can locate the firewood...

Quote:

...personally..i dont believe in the genetic inequality that you seem to be implying..

Clearly you don't. But ignoring reality doesn't change it. "Wishing doesn't make it so".

...it has not been proven nor disproven...

Of course it has, and it can be verified through direct observation. Can every human on the planet lift a three hundred pound rock with his bare hands? Nope. Can some? Certainly. Can every human on the planet learn to speak fluently a foreign language in a few months? Nope. Can some? Certainly. I could go on for pages with various other examples.




none of those examples constitutes proof...but lets just assume that your right for the sake of argument..and that biological inequality is a fact...then according to your logic..the powers that be are in place as a result of the biological superiority of the individuals holding it...and as such..their judgements should be beyond question..since by your own admission..their better than you...

activism
by definition challenges those judgements...if the neocon twits around here were to put their money where their mouths are..they would simply not post... :smirk:


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Evolving]
    #2363700 - 02/21/04 02:32 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

He's trying to find a non sequitur in his copy of Qadhafi's "The Green Book" which he can use to derail this thread.




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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Xlea321]
    #2363783 - 02/21/04 02:51 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

He's trying to find a non sequitur in his copy of Qadhafi's "The Green Book" which he can use to derail this thread.




--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Xlea321]
    #2364096 - 02/21/04 04:10 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

He's trying to find a non sequitur in his copy of Qadhafi's "The Green Book" which he can use to derail this thread.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2364100 - 02/21/04 04:13 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

your line of reasoning..aka neocon logic..can be conveniently summed up with a quote from david frum:

So you choose not to address any of my points, but instead insert yet another non sequitur from yet another Leftie blatherer? Why am I not surprised?

Look, logic is logic. There is neither "Jewish logic" nor "neocon logic" nor "Fundamentalist logic". Either what I say is logical or it is not. Why don't you demonstrate which part of my argument is illogical?

or put more simply.."its because we said so"...neocons can never be wrong..since they have conveniently ended the discussion before it began...

That's rich. Just who here has ended the discussion before it began? You are so predictable. Your standard mode of operation is to waltz in here, drop an ellipsis-filled mishmash of incoherent babble, then when challenged to defend (or even to clarify) your stream-of-consciousness meanderings you pout like a little girl and start railing about "neoconpoops" (how precious a phrase that is!) or "neocon twits".

Rather than resorting to weak ad hominem evasions, why not defend your "beliefs" (and I put scare quotes around the word because as of yet I have been unable to decipher your messages to the extent of deciding whether they are intended to represent beliefs or not) in clear speech? If you believe I'm wrong, don't quote David Frum. Indicate which of my assertions is incorrect, and show why.

they only have the same opportunity if you put a blindfold on the sighted person..or better yet..if you provide the blind person with a dog that can locate the firewood...

Again, you seem to be unable to grasp the difference between "opportunity" and "end result". The firewood is there. The blind man is there. He walks around, brushes against a piece of firewood, picks it up. Mission accomplished. Will he gather as much firewood with as little effort in the same amount of time as a sighted person? Unlikely. But that doesn't alter the fact that he not only has the opportunity to gather firewood, he does gather firewood.

none of those examples constitutes proof...

I'll give you one thing... you certainly don't lack chutzpah! You're not afraid to expose yourself to ridicule by stating (in essence) in a public forum that every single human on the planet has the same abilities as every single other human being on the planet.

But you can't possibly be serious. Can you slamdunk a basketball? There are people who can, you know. Can you extract cube roots of seven digit numbers in your head? There are people who can. Can you benchpress three hundred and fifty pounds? There are people who can. Can you write a best-selling novel? There are people who can. How can you possibly delude yourself into thinking there are no differences (physical or mental) between humans? How tightly must you shut your eyes (and mind) to deny the evidence of your own senses?

...but lets just assume that your right for the sake of argument..and that biological inequality is a fact...then according to your logic..the powers that be are in place as a result of the biological superiority of the individuals holding it...

My logic states no such thing. The "powers that be" -- by whom I presume you mean politicians -- are not necessarily in place because of their biologial superiority. Most are in place because of personal inclination.

...and as such..their judgements should be beyond question..since by your own admission..their better than you...

a) Where did you find in my statements anything indicating I believe their judgments shouldn't be questioned?

b) Where did you find in my statements anything indicating I believe they are better than me? Or for that matter, better than you?

All I said is that because people have differing abilities (language tip -- "different" is not equivalent to "superior") there will be differing levels of economic success among humans left free of interference.

activism by definition challenges those judgements...

Leaving aside for the amount your incorrect characterizations of my position, there are activists and there are activists. Not every activist advocates increasing the areas of state intrusion into the lives of individuals. A Libertarian running for political office is an activist.

This is yet another irritating trait of so many on the Loopy Left end of the political spectrum. They co-opt entire concepts. "A conservative activist? Impossible! That's a contradiction in terms!"

...if the neocon twits around here were to put their money where their mouths are..

The "neocon twits" around here at least state their cases coherently, and don't dodge questions. Would that more of the neocom twits were capable of the same .

...they would simply not post...

Ah. Standard Leftie double standard. Gee, it sure would be nice for the Leftie monoculture if those pesky Righties would just stop cluttering up the discussion with facts and logic, wouldn't it?

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2364112 - 02/21/04 04:18 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Bravo!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2364158 - 02/21/04 04:38 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

...if the neocon twits around here were to put their money where their mouths are..

The "neocon twits" around here at least state their cases coherently, and don't dodge questions. Would that more of the neocom twits were capable of the same .





This has to be my favorite part. You have a knack for having patience (hence your long replies). I wish I had your patience.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2364236 - 02/21/04 05:11 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

your line of reasoning..aka neocon logic..can be conveniently summed up with a quote from david frum:

So you choose not to address any of my points, but instead insert yet another non sequitur from yet another Leftie blatherer? Why am I not surprised?




:lol:david frum is a leftie blatherer :lol: and i suppose your response to this post..if any..will be to call frum's co-blatherer richard perle a marxist-leninist :lol: shows how much neoconpoops really know :lol:

Quote:

But you can't possibly be serious. Can you slamdunk a basketball? There are people who can, you know. Can you extract cube roots of seven digit numbers in your head? There are people who can. Can you benchpress three hundred and fifty pounds? There are people who can. Can you write a best-selling novel? There are people who can. How can you possibly delude yourself into thinking there are no differences (physical or mental) between humans? How tightly must you shut your eyes (and mind) to deny the evidence of your own senses?




i dont deny that some ppl can do one or more the above and others cant...but none of that is genetic..which you seem to be implying that they are...for example..maybe you cant bench press 350# now..but with enough practice..you prolly could...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2364521 - 02/21/04 06:09 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Practice and maybe some anabolic steroids.

Some people are genetically capable of building more muscle than others. Some people are genetically more capable of higher math than others.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2366827 - 02/22/04 04:38 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

I dont deny that some ppl can do one or more the above and others cant...but none of that is genetic..which you seem to be implying that they are...

Most people who can slamdunk a basketball are over six feet tall. Someone five foot four inches tall whose parents were both five foot three inches tall owes his/her stature to genetics.

..for example..maybe you cant bench press 350# now..but with enough practice..you prolly could...

Maybe I am blessed with the genetics which might allow me to someday bench 350. But are you? I'll bet you could lift weights for the next thirty years and never get close to the 350 pound mark, because your body's limitations (determined by your genetics) won't allow it. And I can guaran-damn-tee you that no one with a height of four foot eleven inches will ever be able to slamdunk a basketball, even if they spend their entire life practicing.

And if you still deny the existence of (for example) people born blind through an inherited condition, there's absolutely no hope for you. I suppose such a person could one day see if they only practiced long enough?

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: reply to a tangent [Re: Phred]
    #2367602 - 02/22/04 01:40 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I'll bet you could lift weights for the next thirty years and never get close to the 350 pound mark, because your body's limitations (determined by your genetics) won't allow it.




and the source of that information is??...

Quote:

Most people who can slamdunk a basketball are over six feet tall. Someone five foot four inches tall whose parents were both five foot three inches tall owes his/her stature to genetics




again..theres still no proof...but assuming thats true..heigth is hardly a basis on which to justify imposing power...OTOH..more important traits..such as intelligence..muscle mass..etc..etc..can all be acquired...and there is no evidence of a genetic ability to acquire them either...

Quote:

And if you still deny the existence of (for example) people born blind through an inherited condition, there's absolutely no hope for you. I suppose such a person could one day see if they only practiced long enough?




granted..genetic diseases do exist..but they are sufficiently rare as to make the right-wing premise of genetic determinism worthless...but if you choose to accept it anyway (and without proof..no less)..then racism and other forms of discrimination follow logically (non-neocon logically..of course)..in which case you have basis on which to defend yourself..should you ever become the victim of such discrimination...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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