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OfflineChk
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Advices needed for commercial grow
    #23582868 - 08/27/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So the story is i'll soon move into a new house with insane space available.
For a long time i want to grow edibles (i grow some edibles for me actually at a small scale)

i'll have enough space to have a dedicated lab, and fruiting room.
Lab(30m²)
Old stables (50m²)
storage space (150m²)
and another building which side the house , a shed with 2 open walls which is 200m².

Considering all the post done here about it, i know i should not start big.

How many bags should i try to do each week to have a sustainable production
(let's say for 1 minute i'll do oysters)

How much can i expect to loose to contamination is everything is done right?

Any thread in here that would explain the usual quircks when growing edibles and slowly scaling up the production?


Thanks for you time :wink:


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23583233 - 08/27/16 11:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

What is your current equipment and experience level?

Do you plan on starting with straw logs? If so then your contamination rate should be low as long as you catch any contams in the spawn. If you can find a cheap reliable spawn producer it would get you off the ground a lot quicker and with no lab cost on startup, you can always add the spawn production and lab in after. I highly recommend using hot water bath pasteurization for starters. A bale of straw a week should put you around 30-50 lbs of mushrooms per week. I found mixing fuel pellets in about 20-30% really helps with maximizing pasteurizer space and making the logs more nutritionally dense with no added risk of contamination. 

The other route would be your pick of sterilized sawdust/soybean hulls/rice hulls/wheat bran. Get yourself a AA941 and do batches of 9 bags until you get everything down then build a 55 gal drum sterilizer or larger for 40+ bag batches. Expect 1 lb per 5 lb bag low side, closer to 2 lbs once you dial everything in.


Edited by Gr0wer (08/27/16 11:31 AM)


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23583560 - 08/27/16 01:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well i'm ok with cubensis, pans and stones,
also done some oyster, shiitake and reishi (in tiny amounts)

I guess my spawn is not perfect, but i rarely got contams now.
Quote:



If you can find a cheap reliable spawn producer it would get you off the ground a lot quicker and with no lab cost on startup



In france it's not even debatable, taxes are so high, if you can do something yourself, you do it yourself, otherwise prices tend to explode.
(and i have enough money to build a good lfh and buy basic lab equipments(+ what i already have))
(and yes Socialism is a cancer)

For substrate i found big bales of straw, 200€ per ton
and some compressed hardwood (mostly oak) 400€ per ton

Quote:

Get yourself a AA941 and do batches of 9 bags



Yes i was planning to get one of the big AA to replace my presto(sad thing is the shipping price is horribly expensive, but that's probably my only option anyway, regulation prevent selling non professional sterilizer to individuals here)

Quote:


until you get everything down then build a 55 gal drum sterilizer or larger for 40+ bag batches



I had big trouble sourcing some big drum over here, maybe i didn't look at the right place...
Quote:



Expect 1 lb per 5 lb bag low side, closer to 2 lbs once you dial everything in.



Useful info thanks.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23584459 - 08/27/16 05:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The biggest mushroom spawn factory in the world is in verome France.  I'd suggest giving them a call.  It's either sylvan, amycel, or somycel.  Can't remember.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89]
    #23584718 - 08/27/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Amycel Vendôme France..

http://www.mushroombusiness.com/news/expansion-amycel-france

3015 is a popular oyster strain with good shelf life..
20 pounds for 23.00 dollars in the USA..
One bag should do 80-5 pound bags. (1/4 lbs. per bag)
Make up a few slant tubes for preserving the culture for a long time..
http://www.amycel.eu/welcome/strains

http://www.amycel.pl/welcome/strains/pleurotus-strains

http://www.amycel.pl/application/files/9214/5865/1725/3015__Technical_Presentation.pdf


Edited by micelio (08/27/16 08:09 PM)


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89]
    #23585621 - 08/28/16 12:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Didn't know that !


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: micelio]
    #23585633 - 08/28/16 12:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

3015 is a popular oyster strain with good shelf life..
20 pounds for 23.00 dollars in the USA..




i have to admit that's really a good price,
i'll try to check the prices here, i could be surprised ofc but i doubt it will be that low.


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Edited by Chk (08/28/16 12:20 AM)


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23586172 - 08/28/16 08:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

check mycelia.be, better quality.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: frog48]
    #23586305 - 08/28/16 09:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23588521 - 08/28/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:threadmonitor:


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Indoor Greenhouse Build 
          Mid Size Mushroom Farm


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23588916 - 08/29/16 12:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Should i plan something regarding light / air exchange / temperature in the closed building?

Maybe some guidelines like  X watt per m², i can imagine the number is pretty low, but maybe the light currently installed won't be enough (i was planning to use the stable first which has 4 100w neon bulb)

And i guess some way to bring fresh air in, if needed (if the amount of fresh air with door open is insufficient)


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Invisiblemicelio
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23589560 - 08/29/16 10:28 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

chk..

Your going to need to exchange your air at least four times an hour to removing co2 buildup in the grow room.

Check out GrOwer You-tube channel.

Also check out Mushroom Adventure Epidsode..

81 videos:


Try opening this url in a new browser window..
Click on the You-Tube logo lower right hand corner..


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Edited by micelio (08/29/16 10:33 AM)


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OfflineRosen_Rot
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: micelio]
    #23590471 - 08/29/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you so much :inlove3:

I'm more of a visual learner and I am very grateful there is a step by step process of how to run a small scale mushroom farm. I've been wanting to get into edibles for a very long time


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23741688 - 10/16/16 08:28 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

I found a big autoclave which seems in good shape
Memmert B50 , 240L
for 1000 euro
i don't know if i should jump on it or not
was unable to find specs on the net

what do you think ?


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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23741892 - 10/16/16 09:50 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Pics? Size? Condition? Running?


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23742004 - 10/16/16 10:26 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

80cm * 60cm * 50cm
Year 1998
I was said it's running.

But i would really like to know the specs before buying that, ofc
And since the seller very probably never used one, i can't get more info from him



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Edited by Chk (10/16/16 10:27 AM)


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23742024 - 10/16/16 10:33 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

That appears to be be a dry sterilizer? If it doesn't use moisture then of no use.


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Quadman]
    #23742036 - 10/16/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Well i didn't find any info on it, that's why i'm asking here :wink:


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23742069 - 10/16/16 10:49 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Just read the manual. It refers to it as an oven with natural ventilation.It is also listed as 3 phase. I think you are looking for an autoclave. Something that can be pressurized with steam.


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Quadman]
    #23742306 - 10/16/16 12:00 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

It was listed as an autoclave, that's why i believed it was one !

Btw were did you find the manual ?


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23742410 - 10/16/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Just Google the name and model and there is a PDF file for it. Yeah the do use dry heat for metal instruments and such. Sorry can't copy a link.


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Edited by Quadman (10/16/16 12:52 PM)


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Quadman]
    #23742464 - 10/16/16 12:54 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Ok found it, it's weird i didn't see it the first time i searched....

Anyway, i go back searching a cheap big autoclave !


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23742552 - 10/16/16 01:23 PM (7 years, 3 months ago)

Glad you didn't shell out for that one.:smile:


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Quadman]
    #23744654 - 10/17/16 06:58 AM (7 years, 3 months ago)

No worries, i'm not the type to go buy second hand hardware without knowing the specs.
Btw i don't like to buy second hand stuff, but in that case when i saw the price of brand new big autoclave, well ...


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23815893 - 11/09/16 10:59 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So, after some time working the numbers (theoretically of course)
my main concern is the time spent waiting that stuff are steriziling, preparation of all the shit, etc

was still searching a big autoclave as i want to be able to sterilize spawn and substrate without doing a run everyday, and found that (which is in the affordable price range for me) :

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/280L-150L-200L-400L-Pressure-Steam_60141528957.html?spm=a2700.7724838.0.0.7gCa5I

what do you think about that, i know it's Chinese stuff, but well, it's somewhat just a metal drum with big heater elements, and is so much cheaper that the brand new ones i found here, that's ridiculous.

Also considering the probably high price of shipping something that big (i expect 1k-2k here), i'll probably take the 400L one.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23815994 - 11/09/16 11:39 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I've read that you have to be careful of Automated autoclaves at the end of a run some of them dump all the pressure at once. For instruments and such it s not a problem, but for bags they will expand and explode. Something to check out .


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Quadman]
    #23816004 - 11/09/16 11:46 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Good advice, i'll ask about it.


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23816160 - 11/09/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I built a shed thats 3x4m for less than I paid for 2x400L stainless barrels that held pressure.  Holds more and it's less work rolling stuff in on racks.  Just before you buy some Chinese thing, might want to look into atmospheric steam.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89]
    #23816225 - 11/09/16 01:20 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Well i gave it some thoughts, i admit i'm guilty of some laziness here,
but i have some money left, and that could prove a handy piece of equipment.

Btw, i have plenty of space already(pretty soon to be exact),
so that's a non issue (the new house got 800+m² of buildings/sheds/hangars, not counting the living space itself)

I'm trying to ease the process of growing in a semi lazy way, knowing that i have a bit of money to throw at it.

But thanks for the advice, you made sense btw.

i guess i could have a better use for that money, that's granted, but i don't feel like building stuff from scratch now.

I think you will also agree that's it useful to sterilize stuff fast.


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Edited by Chk (11/09/16 01:21 PM)


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89] * 1
    #23821378 - 11/10/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

drake89 said:
I built a shed thats 3x4m for less than I paid for 2x400L stainless barrels that held pressure.  Holds more and it's less work rolling stuff in on racks.  Just before you buy some Chinese thing, might want to look into atmospheric steam.




Amen, get a few (like 3) cheap Chinese sauna steamers and a 1/4 size shipping container; or better yet an old insulated cube van box and you'll be laughing. Low pressure sterilization is cheap and safe, if you live in north america.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: moonlightmushrooms]
    #23821666 - 11/11/16 12:52 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

How much time is needed to sterilize with such a system ? 24 hours?
also, how much water consumed for a run and power?


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23822133 - 11/11/16 07:09 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Chk said:
How much time is needed to sterilize with such a system ? 24 hours?
also, how much water consumed for a run and power?



I run 4x6kw steamers for 24hrs.  That's about $50 in electric to cook 400 bags.  I could do 800 at a time but I'd need to buy new rolling shelves.  Water, I don't know since I have a well its free.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89]
    #23822150 - 11/11/16 07:15 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

576 kw/h of power would be more like 90€ here, but still interesting considering the number of bag you can sterilize.

i'll think about it.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23823231 - 11/11/16 02:42 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Yea i use atmospheric steam too, its easy and reliable. I use a 1500w element to heat 220 lbs of sub for 24 hrs, costs me around $5 in electricity. I'm building a 85 gal one that will hopefully do around 300lbs of sub but using a 2kw element for the same 24 hrs.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23823596 - 11/11/16 05:09 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, atmospheric sterilization is the way to go for small/medium scale growers. 
I use an insulated 140 gallon stock tank that holds 84x 5 lb. bags.  Uses a 6kw sauna steamer.

-FF


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23824652 - 11/12/16 12:46 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Do any of you also use that same method to sterilize spawn?
seems to me it could ne a bit unreliable for grain ?


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23824703 - 11/12/16 01:17 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I haven't myself yet but i hear of many trusted growers here do. I plan to throw grain in once i upgrade to my larger steamer. The basic sterilization math from what I've gathered is lethality is X temp + X time = 100% lethality regardless of substrate nutrition. (clearly not an actual formula lol) The lower the temp the longer the time and vice versa.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23824829 - 11/12/16 02:59 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

i found a 33 cubic meter container(6 meters long) for about 1.5k + 600 shipping
i guess i can expect to get the steamers pretty cheap.

it's appealing to be able to heat treat as much substrate/grain as you want in one go.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23825192 - 11/12/16 08:23 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

You can only do your final grain transfer at 100c, whether it's g2 or g5.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89]
    #23827829 - 11/13/16 02:51 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

What's the logic behind it ?
no matter what, some endospores will survive 100c an indefinite time?


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23828405 - 11/13/16 09:33 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Endospores are more vulnerable to heat treatment after a soak, although even then it may take a long time with atmospheric steam.  You can use pressure to heat your core up to 121C for 2 hours or you can do a lesser heat for a longer period (i.e. 100C at 12 hours).  Sterilization is a spectrum, but the bare minimum temperature you need is around 90C if I remember correctly from GGMM.  Regardless of theory, there are respected cultivators on here use fractional sterilization with high degrees of success.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: shroombasa]
    #23828450 - 11/13/16 09:49 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I agree, and I am beginning to think DIY spawn would be the next logical step.

I can add whole grain flour to water, it is then much easier to clean.
So I sterilize my slurry, needing less time, and add it to body.

Any body will do, but paper pellets are a good start.


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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Ferather]
    #23828704 - 11/13/16 11:10 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

So drake, your saying i cant do multiple generations of G2G with steam sterilization?


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23829051 - 11/13/16 12:41 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Normally, real sterilization is achieved in 24h at 121c, 
i guess he meant that 24h at 100c leave too many endospores alive to make decent master jars.


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Edited by Chk (11/13/16 12:47 PM)


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: shroombasa]
    #23829061 - 11/13/16 12:43 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Sterilization is a spectrum, but the bare minimum temperature you need is around 90C




That's the number i wanted to know;)


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23829137 - 11/13/16 01:02 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Gr0wer said:
So drake, your saying i cant do multiple generations of G2G with steam sterilization?



Not unless you like throwing out a lot of spawn...steam is not sufficient to treat grain spawn without a much higher contamination rate than pressure treatment.


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Offlineshroombasa
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89]
    #23830263 - 11/13/16 07:36 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

I could've sworn Solarity does his grain spawn with fractional sterilization.  Maybe he will chime in!  (Please!)


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: shroombasa]
    #23830339 - 11/13/16 08:01 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

shroombasa said:
I could've sworn Solarity does his grain spawn with fractional sterilization.  Maybe he will chime in!  (Please!)



like i said before you can expand your last generation on steam treated grain, but doing your masters without pressure cooking is asking for trouble.  unless you're doing tyndalization, which isn't exactly practical for most people since it ties up your vessel for at least 4 or 5 days.


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Offlineshroombasa
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: drake89]
    #23830631 - 11/13/16 09:34 PM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Makes sense and I agree completely.  I was more curious what people see as far as a success/contam rate.


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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: Chk]
    #23831109 - 11/14/16 03:44 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Too risky IME to do several generations. G1 and G2 PC and G3 in my wood fired steam sterilizer.


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Offlinefrog48
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: frog48]
    #23831198 - 11/14/16 05:01 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

This is if you make your own spawn. I'm doing mainly shiitake, so may be with oysters you can get away with it because the myc is far more agressive than shiitake. Certainly if you buy your G1 spawn at a good spawn producer, if I'm not mistaken that's what Solarity does.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: frog48]
    #23831435 - 11/14/16 07:58 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

:takingnotes:


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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OfflineChk
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Re: Advices needed for commercial grow [Re: frog48]
    #23831508 - 11/14/16 08:37 AM (7 years, 2 months ago)

Not making my own spawn would take out a good part of the fun ^^


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