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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #23594282 - 08/30/16 04:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I don't know about that.  In my rather long tenure in the US Navy, after living in foreign countries for 12 years, and visiting another 22 countries, and dealing with people from all sections of the US serving in the Navy, I've come to a couple of inevitable conclusions:

There are a lot of dumb, evil mother fuckers existing on this planet.




I have to say that seems extremely perceptive.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineAlyssa
consecrated woman ✝️
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Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 1,517
Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23594306 - 08/30/16 04:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

starfire_xes said:
I don't know about that.  In my rather long tenure in the US Navy, after living in foreign countries for 12 years, and visiting another 22 countries, and dealing with people from all sections of the US serving in the Navy, I've come to a couple of inevitable conclusions:

There are a lot of dumb, evil mother fuckers existing on this planet.




I have to say that seems extremely perceptive.



So you guys are coming to the realization that I'm right?


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
OTD God-King
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Posts: 65,518
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa] * 2
    #23594313 - 08/30/16 04:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Not so much right as self-aware.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.

Ask an Attorney

Fuck the Amish


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OfflineMaroon
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Registered: 08/25/15
Posts: 1,897
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Maroon]
    #23594315 - 08/30/16 04:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
Sorry but the "brave" folks that often make our military are chosen and  brainwashed young. They have everything handed to them so when they get out they are not effective at thinking for themselves. And they certainly don't want thinkers in their as they cause dissent.

So believe me when I say when people aren't born into large disenfranchised positions they are just as bright and smart as the best anywhere.

But be born into an environment where you have no healthy shelter, foods, stability, and income and yes it's quite astonishing how these bright individuals can be manipulated.

Feed and treat them well from start and these same people destined for failure are the top thinkers and producers.

You ever see maslows hierarchy of needs? Or do you just blame everyone for circumstances out of their control and influence




--------------------
UNDENIABLE PROOF A MODERATOR (Enlil) USES FRAUDULENT POSTS TO SUPOORT HIS OPINIONS.  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23596771#23596771 ; anyone can verify my original post in its unedited format. This proves the length the disinfo whores will go to defend pseudo theories. What quack jobs. Time to get out of moms basement.

One must ask why they would be complicit in crimes against humanity? Is debt based money really worth whoring out your credibility for?


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OfflineAlyssa
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Registered: 11/25/14
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Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Maroon]
    #23594378 - 08/30/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Maroon said:
Sorry but the "brave" folks that often make our military are chosen and  brainwashed young. They have everything handed to them so when they get out they are not effective at thinking for themselves. And they certainly don't want thinkers in their as they cause dissent.

So believe me when I say when people aren't born into large disenfranchised positions they are just as bright and smart as the best anywhere.

But be born into an environment where you have no healthy shelter, foods, stability, and income and yes it's quite astonishing how these bright individuals can be manipulated.

Feed and treat them well from start and these same people destined for failure are the top thinkers and producers.

You ever see maslows hierarchy of needs? Or do you just blame everyone for circumstances out of their control and influence



Evil isn't justified by circumstances. You seem to be saying that everyone is entirely a product of their environment, all the way on the extreme end of the nature vs. nurture debate. I believe people are intrinsically good or evil, such that when the chips are up or down their basic nature doesn't change, only the veneer they place over it. Evil people who have their needs satisfied are far more capable of hiding the fact that they're evil. Good people who are impoverished struggle to be noticed for who they are, because the world really doesn't give a fuck about people, it just cares about what they have to offer materially.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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OfflineAlyssa
consecrated woman ✝️
Female
Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 1,517
Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23594379 - 08/30/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Not so much right as self-aware.



Oh, burn! I'm devastated.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23595067 - 08/30/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:
Evil isn't justified by circumstances. You seem to be saying that everyone is entirely a product of their environment, all the way on the extreme end of the nature vs. nurture debate. I believe people are intrinsically good or evil, such that when the chips are up or down their basic nature doesn't change, only the veneer they place over it. Evil people who have their needs satisfied are far more capable of hiding the fact that they're evil. Good people who are impoverished struggle, to be noticed for who they are, because the world really doesn't give a fuck about people, it just cares about what they have to offer materially.




So it is your contention that "evil", as we call it, is hereditary? There are studies which suggest such a correlation between genes and criminal behavior, and I can understand your point of view, but that is what the law is supposed to do: Protect individuals from violations of their rights to life, liberty, and property. If everyone was completely honest, loving, benevolent, and self-less, I suppose we wouldn't need laws or collective force at all. That's not the case, as you've argued, and the law has been perverted and is being used, as you've advocated, to infringe on these rights of individuals to life, liberty, and property. That is the main reason why you observe such "horrible injustice", not because society is failing at controlling the evil portion of the population.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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OfflineAlyssa
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Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 1,517
Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23595565 - 08/30/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
So it is your contention that "evil", as we call it, is hereditary? There are studies which suggest such a correlation between genes and criminal behavior, and I can understand your point of view,



Well, you don't understand it, because I never said genetic or hereditary, I said intrinsic. The DNA code miraculously gives us our bodies, but our consciousness goes beyond it. I believe humans have souls.

Quote:

amp244 said:
but that is what the law is supposed to do: Protect individuals from violations of their rights to life, liberty, and property. If everyone was completely honest, loving, benevolent, and self-less, I suppose we wouldn't need laws or collective force at all. That's not the case, as you've argued, and the law has been perverted and is being used, as you've advocated, to infringe on these rights of individuals to life, liberty, and property. That is the main reason why you observe such "horrible injustice", not because society is failing at controlling the evil portion of the population.



The injustice I observe is not perpetrated by law enforcement in general. Although in certain instances it is, these are in the small minority.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23595693 - 08/30/16 10:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Some people's souls make them inherently evil, and that's your justification for wanting the state to "control" the people?

And I'm not speaking of law enforcement, I'm speaking of the law itself. The law has been perverted by special interests to create the injustice you now see.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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OfflineAlyssa
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Registered: 11/25/14
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Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23595767 - 08/30/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
Some people's souls make them inherently evil, and that's your justification for wanting the state to "control" the people?



Yes, evildoers are a sizable fraction of the population. Justice needs to be enforced at a far more intrusive level than it currently is in order to be effective.

Quote:

amp244 said:
And I'm not speaking of law enforcement, I'm speaking of the law itself. The law has been perverted by special interests to create the injustice you now see.



Can you give me an example? The most severe injustices are illegal in most places.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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OfflineCrumist
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Registered: 11/02/13
Posts: 781
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23595811 - 08/30/16 10:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I would counter that human souls don't fall into a good/evil binary and that we have
the free will to choose good or evil actions. I believe we all have the opportunity to live
in paradise (or merge with the godhead or reach nirvana as you wish to call it).

I also believe our current justice system is anything but. Nor is our government or
our economy. People often choose to do bad things because the relationships
between them are rarely voluntary nor equitable. The King abuses the steward
abuses the shopkeep abuses the farmer abuses his wife abuses her children.
May we some day all be truly equal under God.

Or remove God from the equation, same result as far as I can tell


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23595911 - 08/30/16 11:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:
Quote:

amp244 said:
And I'm not speaking of law enforcement, I'm speaking of the law itself. The law has been perverted by special interests to create the injustice you now see.



Can you give me an example? The most severe injustices are illegal in most places.






Obamacare uses the coercive power of the state to violate my right to property, forcing me to purchase a health insurance plan, or pay a fine, or be a criminal. The special interests and chief beneficiaries are the health insurance companies, who have secured profits via law(force), leaching wealth from the general public. The productive middle class sees an increase in the cost of insurance and a concomitant reduction in remaining purchasing power. Those on welfare have access to healthcare for free, but that doesn't increase their wealth. There is no asset that they can sell or pass on to their children. They stay in poverty and are contented to do so. These socialist policies that purport to reduce the gap, actually exacerbate it.

If so many are reliant on the state for their subsistence and well being, what will happen if the government is incapable of providing the necessary amenities? Mass civil unrest. Violence. Many dead. The socialist policies need to be drastically reduced, not ramped up.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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OfflineAlyssa
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Posts: 1,517
Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Crumist]
    #23595934 - 08/30/16 11:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
I would counter that human souls don't fall into a good/evil binary



It's not a binary, it's a spectrum.

Quote:

Crumist said:
and that we have
the free will to choose good or evil actions.



Which move one up or down on the spectrum. Everything is taken into account on the celestial plane; the justice system should strive to do the same.

Quote:

Crumist said:
I believe we all have the opportunity to live
in paradise (or merge with the godhead or reach nirvana as you wish to call it).



Most people don't. I mean, I sort of do at times, but only in the comfort of my room or someone else's who shares enough of my values, and most people have to work and don't get satisfying sex.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23595936 - 08/30/16 11:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
Those on welfare have access to healthcare for free, but that doesn't increase their wealth. There is no asset that they can sell or pass on to their children.

The socialist policies need to be drastically reduced, not ramped up.



Let me get this straight...  if I save $5,000 by not paying for health insurance, I'm not $5,000 wealthier?!?!?  :flowstone:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23595961 - 08/30/16 11:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Oh my god falcon, you will never get it.

How about you try to look at it this way:
You make $10/hr working at a McDonalds. I give you an insurance plan valued at $20,000,000. You now have access to the best doctors in the world. You can fly for no money out of pocket to Dubai for brain surgery whenever you want. Are you now a wealthy multi millionaire? Can you afford to buy a million dollar home in a nice community? Can you afford to join the country club? Eat steak and lobster every night? Quit your job? Of course not! You do not own the plan, you only have claim to its use. Now if you could sell the $5,000 plan, or some portion thereof, then I would agree with you that a subsidized healthcare plan adds to a families wealth.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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OfflineAlyssa
consecrated woman ✝️
Female
Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 1,517
Last seen: 6 days, 2 hours
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23595962 - 08/30/16 11:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
Obamacare uses the coercive power of the state to violate my right to property, forcing me to purchase a health insurance plan, or pay a fine, or be a criminal. The special interests and chief beneficiaries are the health insurance companies, who have secured profits via law(force), leaching wealth from the general public. The productive middle class sees an increase in the cost of insurance and a concomitant reduction in remaining purchasing power. Those on welfare have access to healthcare for free, but that doesn't increase their wealth. There is no asset that they can sell or pass on to their children. They stay in poverty and are contented to do so. These socialist policies that purport to reduce the gap, actually exacerbate it.

If so many are reliant on the state for their subsistence and well being, what will happen if the government is incapable of providing the necessary amenities? Mass civil unrest. Violence. Many dead. The socialist policies need to be drastically reduced, not ramped up.



I totally disagree. You have to pay for Obamacare because it's essentially a tax. The government taxes the people to pay for shit, that's how it works.

The thing that makes welfare appealing (I'm on it) is not having to work. Class mobility requires getting a job, having your alarm wake you up to go to work, repressing many of your physiological necessities for hours on end while on the job, sacrificing your intellectual freedom to serve another's selfish desires, the list goes on and on. Work is psychopathic. I'm fucking grateful we have a welfare state, I would be absolutely miserable working the kind of job that your average welfare checkster like me is able to get, since we don't have the money to pay for education. The advantage of being in education is that you're paying them, not the other way around, so you get a shitload more freedom.


--------------------
I'm Alyssa.
I'm consecrated to the Immaculate Heart.
I don't want her to have to look at adultery to save my privileged living cells, so please keep it PG-13.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Last seen: 4 months, 22 days
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23595976 - 08/30/16 11:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
Oh my god falcon, you will never get it.

How about you try to look at it this way:
You make $10/hr working at a McDonalds. I give you an insurance plan valued at $20,000,000. You now have access to the best doctors in the world. You can fly for no money out of pocket to Dubai for brain surgery whenever you want. Are you now a wealthy multi millionaire? Can you afford to buy a million dollar home in a nice community? Can you afford to join the country club? Eat steak and lobster every night? Quit your job? Of course not! You do not own the plan, you only have claim to its use. Now if you could sell the $5,000 plan, or some portion thereof, then I would agree with you that a subsidized healthcare plan adds to a families wealth.



In your fairy tale example of being given a $20million insurance plan, then no, I would not become $20million wealthier.  My wealth would only increase by the amount of the insurance I would have paid for if I didn't get it free.  About $5,000/year for the average person.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCrumist
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I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 11/02/13
Posts: 781
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23596020 - 08/31/16 12:02 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

And then you and society benefits when you are a healthy, productive worker drone

eg.) actually go to the doctor after that questionable fall
and your leg heals correctly the first time vs grin and bear it until you
go to the ER and end up disabled and miserable to boot

EDIT:
Also, people fly to India to pay cash for cut rate surgeries as a cost saving measure
ie. because its too fucking expensive here in the US


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


Edited by Crumist (08/31/16 12:04 AM)


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Invisibleamp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Alyssa]
    #23596141 - 08/31/16 01:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Alyssa said:
Quote:

amp244 said:
Obamacare uses the coercive power of the state to violate my right to property, forcing me to purchase a health insurance plan, or pay a fine, or be a criminal. The special interests and chief beneficiaries are the health insurance companies, who have secured profits via law(force), leaching wealth from the general public. The productive middle class sees an increase in the cost of insurance and a concomitant reduction in remaining purchasing power. Those on welfare have access to healthcare for free, but that doesn't increase their wealth. There is no asset that they can sell or pass on to their children. They stay in poverty and are contented to do so. These socialist policies that purport to reduce the gap, actually exacerbate it.

If so many are reliant on the state for their subsistence and well being, what will happen if the government is incapable of providing the necessary amenities? Mass civil unrest. Violence. Many dead. The socialist policies need to be drastically reduced, not ramped up.



I totally disagree. You have to pay for Obamacare because it's essentially a tax. The government taxes the people to pay for shit, that's how it works.

The thing that makes welfare appealing (I'm on it) is not having to work. Class mobility requires getting a job, having your alarm wake you up to go to work, repressing many of your physiological necessities for hours on end while on the job, sacrificing your intellectual freedom to serve another's selfish desires, the list goes on and on. Work is psychopathic. I'm fucking grateful we have a welfare state, I would be absolutely miserable working the kind of job that your average welfare checkster like me is able to get, since we don't have the money to pay for education. The advantage of being in education is that you're paying them, not the other way around, so you get a shitload more freedom.





First off, the gov't taxes people to pay for shit that is supposed to help it do its prescribed functions. Mandating healthcare is not one its prescribed functions.

2nd off, industry and the free markets innovate, welfare states vegetate. If everyone thought as you did about productivity and government relief, we'd all be living in loin cloths under the stars getting in touch with the celestial plane. While this may be a fulfilling lifestyle for some, it may not be for others. In our present society, you are free to move to Alaska or other remote areas of the world, and live completely free form government intervention, off the grid, and with no 'miserable job' if you so choose.

Ironically, you wouldn't be able to enjoy your pampered lifestyle as you do today if everybody tried to be like you, subsisting completely off of the charity and labor of other people. The Alyssa Clone Society, or ACS as it will henceforth be referred, where nobody works (because fuck that shit, right?) would actually force people to work or die. If nobody is working and providing you with food, shelter, clothes, etc., then it would follow naturally that you would have to obtain these things yourself. And while food may indeed grow on trees, it takes labor to gather it. You would have to work, or die.

Where do you think the food that you buy with government stamps comes from? How do you think it gets to the grocery store? Do grocery stores live in the forest? When the cold air stops coming through those vents in your apartment, does the landlord say 'Abracadabra!' to fix it?

People have to work in order for you to live your lifestyle. The more people like you there are, the harder those people have to work to support themselves. I support a free society, with laws designed to provide all able bodied people with the ability to fully support themselves. Those with physical disabilities should be subsidized. Those who are simply not capable of becoming productive members of society will be subsidized to a much lesser extent and live a life that is in no way superfluous or comfortable. Able bodied people on welfare need an incentive to be productive, support themselves and stop this universal plunder.

Everything you get for "free" is taken by force(law) from someone else. This is a violation of property rights. If you take groceries out of my car while I'm inside at the gas station because I make more money than you, you have committed a crime. You have stolen my property. What then is the difference when this plunder is legalized via the various welfare programs? My property, is stolen from me in both cases, the only difference being that in the one instance you are physically stealing it, and in the other you are standing idle on sidelines. Can you see the injustice in this? Do you see how hypocritical it is to decry of injustice and advocate socialism?


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (08/31/16 01:40 AM)


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Invisibleamp244
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Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23596164 - 08/31/16 01:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

amp244 said:
Oh my god falcon, you will never get it.

How about you try to look at it this way:
You make $10/hr working at a McDonalds. I give you an insurance plan valued at $20,000,000. You now have access to the best doctors in the world. You can fly for no money out of pocket to Dubai for brain surgery whenever you want. Are you now a wealthy multi millionaire? Can you afford to buy a million dollar home in a nice community? Can you afford to join the country club? Eat steak and lobster every night? Quit your job? Of course not! You do not own the plan, you only have claim to its use. Now if you could sell the $5,000 plan, or some portion thereof, then I would agree with you that a subsidized healthcare plan adds to a families wealth.



In your fairy tale example of being given a $20million insurance plan, then no, I would not become $20million wealthier.  My wealth would only increase by the amount of the insurance I would have paid for if I didn't get it free.  About $5,000/year for the average person.



What the fuck if you didn't want it enough to have ever paid the $5000 to begin with falcon? Yes, if you were already paying $5,000 for a health plan, and you no longer have to, then abso-fucking-lutely, you'd be $5000 in the plus. If you are assuming the insurance to be a sunk cost indefinitely, then the subsidy value would be equivalent to the cost of replacing the plan. But just giving people access to shit without ownership rights isn't increasing wealth per say. Putting money back into the pocket (like when a family NO LONGER HAS TO PAY $5000 a year in insurance) increases wealth and purchasing power. Unfortunately for your argument the majority of the families getting full subsidies were already on Medicaid and/or weren't purchasing insurance so the subsidies didn't increase a god damn thing. Absolutely no money was freed up and no purchasing power was gained. How can you say that adds wealth? These people are staying poor no matter how much "free shit" you give them to dump down a drain.


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