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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
#23659133 - 09/19/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Teddy Roosevelt is one of my favorite presidents, because he was one of the first American men who decided that the Constitution is more about what the feds CANT do, more than its about what they CAN.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
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I'm asking why you believe what you believe. Do you have any source material to cite? Enlil?
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil] 1
#23660413 - 09/20/16 12:21 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: I have question for you: What makes you think that the federal government lacks the power to require citizens to buy insurance?
What do you think Enlil; is there a compelling government interest involved in preventing the many deaths that result from being uninsured or in preventing the cost of administering healthcare to the uninsured from being paid by the government?
it sounds compelling.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
#23660820 - 09/20/16 06:43 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: I'm asking why you believe what you believe. Do you have any source material to cite? Enlil?
So, is that a no?
As to your question, what is it you think I believe?
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Enlil
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: ballsalsa]
#23660830 - 09/20/16 06:49 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said: is there a compelling government interest involved in preventing the many deaths that result from being uninsured or in preventing the cost of administering healthcare to the uninsured from being paid by the government?
Why does there have to be a compelling government interest? If healthcare falls under the interstate commerce clause, then the federal government has the power to regulate it. That power includes all necessary powers incident to that regulation. A compelling government interest is only necessary when a regulation impacts a fundamental right. That isn't the case here. As a result, the regulation only needs to be rationally related to an important government interest.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
#23661035 - 09/20/16 09:04 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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yes, yes, i said the same thing a few pages ago.
Quote:
ballsalsa said: is healthcare a commodity? Does one retain access to healthcare when one crosses state lines? boom, interstate commerce, baby. Who has purview over laws regarding interstate commerce again? i can't quite remember...if only i had a link to the Constitution, Article 1, Section 8...
Quote:
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
lets see, what else?
Quote:
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
Quote:
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.
I only asked about compelling interest because amp keeps crying about due process etc.
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Enlil
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: ballsalsa]
#23661066 - 09/20/16 09:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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He's confused about that. He keeps talking about being presumed, "guilty" which is, of course, not even applicable here since it isn't a criminal statute.
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amp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
#23661665 - 09/20/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh so if I don't pay the fine, they'll just forget about it? Cool.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
#23661693 - 09/20/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That doesnt mean its criminal if you get penalized. I can get penalized for speeding but that doesnt mean I'll get charged with a crime.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] 1
#23661841 - 09/20/16 01:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said: Oh so if I don't pay the fine, they'll just forget about it? Cool.
I can see that you have a hard time being logical.
Not getting insurance isn't a crime. It's not even illegal. Not paying your taxes is illegal and often a crime.
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amp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
#23662355 - 09/20/16 04:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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You have a hard time understanding shit I've already explained. Like when you ask:
Quote:
Enlil said: I have question for you: What makes you think that the federal government lacks the power to require citizens to buy insurance?
After I've already posted a quote directly from the opinion of the SCOTUS opinion you keep citing and hiding behind.
Remember when I posted:
Quote:
The Federal Government does not have the power to order people to buy health insurance. Section 5000A [of the Internal Revenue Code] would therefore be unconstitutional if read as a command.
That is Justics Roberts himself in the official National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius opinion. The one you've been referring to this whole time. I posted this on the same page before you asked the question.
Also a side note to Ballsista who keeps chiming in from the peanut gallery and co-signing to all of your B.S.: Why do you think Roberts says Section 5000A would be unconstitutional if read as a command? Because that would be an infringement on one's life, liberty, and property, which are protected by what? The due process clause of the 5th amendment. You see, through due process, the government can fine you, search you, imprison you, confiscate your property, take your children from you, murder you, and a lot more. That's why U.S. citizens are afforded due process, to confront their accusers and to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. That's why they have traffic court. Because people have a right to confront their accusers in court. The police officer has to show up and testify against you, you make your case, and the judge decides if the facts are sufficient to find you guilty, as you are presumed innocent.
Ok, back to Enlil, I ask you to cite why YOU think otherwise, why you think the Federal Government DOES have the power to require citizens to buy insurance (or anything), and you sidestep, deflect, and reiterate. Cool. I get that the SCOTUS rendered an opinion. The law has officially been interpreted as being a tax, when clearly its a mandate that is designed to penalize. I made the point that the reason the SCOTUS opinion (5 to 4 by the way) is such is because of a preconceived judgement to save the ACA, for political reasons, as indicated in the Scalia quote I posted above about the very law. You ignored that and reiterated your point that "It is constitutional because of the opinion". I understand that point. The opinion is wrong, and its for political reasons.
I don't get why you think the SCOTUS opinion prevents opponents and proponents from engaging in open debate, or somehow is an argument in and of itself. Like when I and others post links to the law itself describing the mandate as a "penalty" and other links of its main political supporters denying that it is a tax, those are valid points that should be addressed by the opposition. If all the opposition can say is, 'this was decided in a court case already, so it shall never be challenged, or argued, again', the opposition has made virtually no argument whatsoever. Give yourself a pat on the back, you've made no original thoughts for the last 4 or 5 pages. You've contributed nothing to this thread.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
Edited by amp244 (09/20/16 04:49 PM)
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Enlil
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] 1
#23662383 - 09/20/16 04:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's what I suspected. So, you are relying on the SCOTUS opinion for your belief that the federal government lacks the power to order people to purchase insurance, but rejecting that exact same opinion insofar as you disagree with it.
Setting aside the fact that you're relying on dicta and rejecting the holding (the only part of the opinion that is actually binding law), do you not see the hypocrisy in this?
And I'm not saying that we can't debate. What I'm saying is that the debate as to whether the law is Constitutional or not is over. It's been decided. We can debate whether that decision was the right one or not, but I think we probably both agree that it was not. That really only leaves us with debating whether the law should be repealed. Am I missing something?
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Crumist
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
#23662388 - 09/20/16 04:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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The congress (and the US public that ultimately voted in key congressmen to pass the ama) and then the SCOTUS (Uber superstar trained constitutional scholars) then debated it, and your side lost out.
Amp, what is your position on required auto or home insurance?
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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Enlil
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Crumist]
#23662390 - 09/20/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Amp, what is your position on required auto or home insurance?
You're kinda muddying the waters here. I'm pretty sure Amp isn't saying that government lacks the power...just that the FEDERAL government lacks the power. I think we all agree that state governments can make everyone wear green if they want.
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amp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
#23662477 - 09/20/16 05:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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You guys are both missing the point. I am not citing the SCOTUS opinion as the official authority. I am citing the constitution, which lacks the powers you say it has. Roberts concurs with my opinion, I quoted him because you continue to use the opinion that very quote came from as the basis of your argument. I was using your very material to answer your question for you. The Feds don't have powers not specifically given to them, so if they have the power to force me to buy insurance, please direct me to where I can find that information. It shouldn't be hard, the constitution is much more brief than the ACA that you claim to have read.
And I'm glad someone brought up Auto and Home insurance. I was waiting patiently for that. Nobody has to buy auto insurance or home insurance. I am free to sit at my apartment, not drive, and not have auto insurance or home insurance. I don't get penalized for that. I can avoid that. I have freedom here. The gov't is dangling a privilege over me like a carrot, but I still have the option of jumping off the wheel.
Not so with Obamacare. I have no choice but to buy insurance or pay a fine. No questions. No freedom to avoid and no chance to argue my guilt or innocence in relation to the penalty. That is the whole fucking issue that everyone is taking with the law. I don't understand why that hasn't become apparent at this point. The law forces citizens to take money out of their pockets and put it into the pockets of private corporations, or face the coercive power of the state.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Enlil
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Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] 1
#23662483 - 09/20/16 05:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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By your logic, you do have a choice. If you don't have income above the filing threshold, you don't need to buy insurance or pay the tax.
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil] 1
#23662506 - 09/20/16 05:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said:
And I'm not saying that we can't debate. What I'm saying is that the debate as to whether the law is Constitutional or not is over. It's been decided. We can debate whether that decision was the right one or not, but I think we probably both agree that it was not. That really only leaves us with debating whether the law should be repealed. Am I missing something?
And you can't help yourself. You just keep making this same circular argument. I know they made an opinion. That DOES NOT mean that the debate of constitutionality is over. I have already posted about the Erie Railroad case that overturned nearly 100 years of previous SCOTUS decisions. The debate on constitutionality is never over. I am asking you for your opinion and now I FINALLY get something out of you: "We can debate whether that decision was the right one or not, but I think we probably both agree that it was not." Thank you. This is what I was arguing. I appreciate you making the process this painstaking. The decision was wrong, and under strict interpretation, the law is unconstitutional. Thanks bra. We just had a breakthrough.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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amp244
Sporocarp Stretching


Registered: 08/05/08
Posts: 1,336
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
#23662519 - 09/20/16 05:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enlil said: By your logic, you do have a choice. If you don't have income above the filing threshold, you don't need to buy insurance or pay the tax.
Yes but trying to obtain a high income is consistent with my natural right to the pursuit of life, liberty, and property homie. Thats why cops can't take your license without due process homie. Cause your ability to drive effects your ability to obtain gainful employment which is a natural right of yours based on your rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is the distinction, brah. You can't fuck with my LLP without due motha fucking process brah.
And plenty of people drive on the streets without licenses or insurance, and they get out of their tickets by arguing just what I've argued. That they are not conducting commerce, and that they have a god given right to use the roads to drive themselves to work. You can look all that up on your own.
-------------------- How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer "Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] 1
#23662544 - 09/20/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
amp244 said:
And plenty of people drive on the streets without licenses or insurance, and they get out of their tickets by arguing just what I've argued. That they are not conducting commerce, and that they have a god given right to use the roads to drive themselves to work. You can look all that up on your own.
Nope. This is sovereign citizen bullshit. It doesn't actually work in court, broseph.
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starfire_xes
I Am 'They'



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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
#23662599 - 09/20/16 06:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well, if a state has strict insurance laws that state that insurance can't be bought or sold outside of state lines for use inside the state, how does the commerce clause apply?
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