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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #23645330 - 09/14/16 05:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Scotus basically is right until they decide they were wrong, and then make themselves right again.




At no point does that guarantee they are right. What it does is demonstrate they have the last word.




:thumbup:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23645343 - 09/14/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Obama was only the President when the ACA passed.  The President doesn't make law.  Why would you take his word on what the intent is?





With that noted, how can the President then change the law, so the clearly stated timelines/penalties change?  How can HE change it without congress?

If he changes it, he is making law.


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23645609 - 09/14/16 07:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Obama was only the President when the ACA passed.  The President doesn't make law.  Why would you take his word on what the intent is?



Because he took it upon himself to sell it to the economically and constitutionally ignorant. He's the one who made all the promises. He's the one that sold the lie. I hate when lawyers lie and play dumb.

These SCOTUS opinions aren't about making a correct interpretation they are about making the ACA constitutional, as noted by Scalia in other opinions regarding the Act. It was about re-writing the law. The dissenting opinion really puts it well. You do know there are 4 of these holy justices that say the law is unconstitutional, right? I'm not sure Falcon does...

How about we listen to the court's official opinion:
Quote:

The Federal Government does not have the power to order people to buy health insurance. Section 5000A [of the Internal Revenue Code] would therefore be unconstitutional if read as a command.



-Roberts himself.

So it all boils down to the interpretation.

I'll first direct you to ยง 5000A itself. And point out that the law refers to the Shared Responsibility as a "penalty" 18 times.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5000A

What do you think Enlil? Lets assume you are a supreme court justice with a similar case before you.

Is the individual mandate a penalty or a tax, and why?
Does the gov't have the authority to tax something that is non-tangible and exists because of inactivity?
Are people who don't smoke still getting invisible tax breaks?


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] * 1
    #23645619 - 09/14/16 07:32 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:

Is the individual mandate a penalty or a tax, and why?


Neither.  The tax assessment for not getting insurance is a tax, though.
Quote:


Does the gov't have the authority to tax something that is non-tangible and exists because of inactivity?


Yes.  The federal government has the power to tax whatever they want without regard to apportionment.
Quote:


Are people who don't smoke still getting invisible tax breaks?


Yes.


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23645655 - 09/14/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

amp244 said:

Is the individual mandate a penalty or a tax, and why?


Neither.  The tax assessment for not getting insurance is a tax, though.





Well here, read the law.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/5000A
When they refer to the shared responsibility 18 times as a "penalty", you think they mean something else? What do they mean?


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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23645675 - 09/14/16 07:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I thought I already answered this.  More importantly, the SCOTUS has answered this. My opinion, like yours, is irrelevant at this point.


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23645697 - 09/14/16 08:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You haven't made any strong arguments whatsoever. You just keep pointing out that 4 out of 9 Supreme Court justices agree with my opinion, and 5 officially hold your absurd opinion.

Quote:

Under all the usual rules of interpretation, in short, the Government should lose this case. But normal rules of interpretation seem always to yield to the overriding principle of the present Court: The Affordable Care Act must be saved.


-Scalia
Me and Scalia think that politics have skewed the SCOTUS decisions.

I'm not asking you to tell me that the Supreme court made a decision. I'm asking you to explain to me why you think that its the right decision. Don't just write that there was a decision and no more explanation is necessary. I want to see if you understand your argument enough to explain it.


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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (09/14/16 08:18 PM)


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #23645705 - 09/14/16 08:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Obama was only the President when the ACA passed.  The President doesn't make law.  Why would you take his word on what the intent is?





With that noted, how can the President then change the law, so the clearly stated timelines/penalties change?  How can HE change it without congress?

If he changes it, he is making law.



^^^ And what about this?^^^^ How can Obama change a law unilaterally?


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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] * 1
    #23645777 - 09/14/16 08:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
I want to see if you understand your argument enough to explain it.



My argument is that this is already a settled question.  The law is constitutional because the Supremes say it is. 

And Obama didn't change the law.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23652980 - 09/17/16 12:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Scotus basically is right until they decide they were wrong, and then make themselves right again.



At no point does that guarantee they are right. What it does is demonstrate they have the last word.



Once again, what does "right" mean?  It ONLY means that you disagree with their opinion.

By definition, The Ecstatic is exactly right.




You just can't help yourself.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23652986 - 09/17/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I thought I already answered this.




Yup. Incorrectly.

It's disappointing to see you unable to back down.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: luvdemshrooms] * 1
    #23658235 - 09/19/16 09:28 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Back down from what?  My claim is, and has been throughout the entirety of this discussion, that the law is Constitutional.  If you think that's incorrect, cite some legal authority to back up that claim.  I'm relying solely on a decision of the highest court in this land.  If you have something more persuasive, let's see it.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23658260 - 09/19/16 09:36 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The Supreme Court has been wrong in the past therefore theyre wrong now. :cookiemonster:


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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23658400 - 09/19/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Right...wrong...I don't see what difference it really makes.  They were wrong in Griswold v. Connecticut, but that doesn't stop it and Roe v. Wade from being current law.  I don't see how them being wrong here means the ACA is unconstitutional.


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23658613 - 09/19/16 12:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Clearly the SCOTUS has molded its interpretation to allow people like Enlil to hide behind its decision. I quoted Scalia before where he says the same thing. They were out to save the ACA, not render sound judgement. Its political. The law conflicts with the constitution and no Supreme Court decision can change that fact without changing the Constitution.

This reminds me of the Erie Railroad vs Thompkins case. Remember in Swift vs Tyson of 1842, an opinion was delivered declaring that the federal gov't had the authority to apply substantive rules of common law to cases which lacked state statutes under code section 34 of the Judiciary Act of 1789. In other words, the Supreme Court gave itself the authority to use its own interpretation of what the common law ought to be, so that they can achieve uniformity when dealing with a diversity of citizenship/jurisdiction in a federal case. This is despite the fact that section 34 clearly delineates that the Federal Gov't must adopt the law of the state in cases where common law would apply. This was to achieve uniformity within each state.

Quote:

The laws of the several States, except where the Constitution, treaties, or statutes of the United States otherwise require or provide, shall be regarded as rules of decision in trials at common law, in the courts of the United States, in cases where they apply.



Seems pretty clear cut to me, I wonder why they interpreted it to mean otherwise?

In 1938, however, Erie vs Thomkins reversed nearly 100 years of case law declaring that section 34 does not allow the Supreme court to adopt and implement its interpretation of common law.

Justice Brandeis puts it nicely:
Quote:

But, notwithstanding the great names which may be cited in favor of the doctrine, and notwithstanding the frequency with which the doctrine has been reiterated, there stands, as a perpetual protest against its repetition, the Constitution of the United States, which recognizes and preserves the autonomy and independence of the States -- independence in their legislative and independence [p79]  in their judicial departments.




I could so steal that quote and apply it to Obamacare. Regardless of the SCOTUS decisions now cited, and the position of the radical left regarding the ACA, there stands as a perpetual protest against its legitimacy, the Constitution of the United States, which recognizes and preserves the natural rights of life, liberty, and property, against infringement without due process.


--------------------
How to Convert a Normal 24-hour Light Timer into a Short Cycle Repeating Timer


"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (09/19/16 12:24 PM)


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] * 1
    #23658656 - 09/19/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amp244 said:
I could so steal that quote and apply it to Obamacare. Regardless of the SCOTUS decisions now cited, and the position of the radical left regarding the ACA, there stands as a perpetual protest against its legitimacy, the Constitution of the United States, which recognizes and preserves the natural rights of life, liberty, and property, against infringement without due process.




what does "due process" mean to you?


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23658888 - 09/19/16 01:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Ultimately, it means the right to confront your accusers. Your accusers have to make a case to prove your guilt before they can punish you.

I am presumed to be guilty of not spending my money privately so therefore I am punished, without due process. I have no say whatsoever. I must spend my money privately, or pay a fine, a fine specifically designed to penalize the uninsured and force universal healthcare. That is clearly a mandate for healthcare. Nobody denied that the intent was to mandate and establish universal healthcare when it was being proposed.

Enlil says that 5 out of 9 SCOTUS justices officially interpreted the law as a tax and not a mandate, which is astonishingly true, and exemplifies the fact that even our Supreme Court is compromised.


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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244] * 1
    #23658930 - 09/19/16 02:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I have question for you:  What makes you think that the federal government lacks the power to require citizens to buy insurance?


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: Enlil]
    #23658951 - 09/19/16 02:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The federal government lacks the power to require citizens to buy anything off of the open market. Please cite your legal authority permitting the Federal Government to force someone to buy something off of the open market simply for being alive.


--------------------
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"Monopoly, besides, is a great enemy to good management, which can never be universally established but in consequence of that free and universal competition which forces everybody to have recourse in it for the sake of self-defense." -Adam Smith


Edited by amp244 (09/19/16 02:17 PM)


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: A vote for Hillary... [Re: amp244]
    #23658954 - 09/19/16 02:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'm asking you why you believe this.  Do you have any source or authority to cite?


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