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 DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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 Preaching democracy without practicing it 
#23577886 - 08/25/16 10:14 PM (8 years, 21 days ago) |
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The United States purports to enshrine democracy and freedom, while at the same time curtailing if not destroying it in its dealings with the rest of the world, especially the third world. The U.S. has repeatedly destroyed the prospects for self-determination, order, peace and prosperity in its quest to retain strategic geopolitical dominance. Examples are legion. Take Cuba. How insane has our policy toward that little island nation in our neighborhood been? The U.S. has repeatedly tried to eliminate Castro and violently topple the government -- obviously without success. The U.S. has deliberately and intentionally worked to destroy the economy of this small nation -- successfully. How in hell can anyone make sense of this except as imperialist lunacy? And how can one not see it as the blatant hypocrisy of a nation that claims to be a purveyor of liberty? Liberty for the American elite only, perhaps. (The U.S. population isn't that well represented, either).
For a nation that is so self-congratulatory about its democratic principles, it should seem odd -- if not outrageous -- to those of its citizens who are paying attention that the U.S. deliberately destroys the possibility for liberty in other nations to further its expedient interests.
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sudly
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Registered: 01/05/15
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 Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23578044 - 08/25/16 11:01 PM (8 years, 21 days ago) |
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Don't forget General Petraeus giving Al Qaeda weapons.
David Petraeus' bright idea: give terrorists weapons to beat terrorists
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/02/david-petraeus-bright-idea-give-terrorists-weapons-to-beat-isis
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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 tump
ban the undead
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: sudly] 1
#23578286 - 08/26/16 01:03 AM (8 years, 21 days ago) |
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The nations woes are the peoples fault themselves. Politics like cults is all about three things. Giving people what they want, making them feel safe, distract people with shiny.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: tump]
#23578684 - 08/26/16 06:19 AM (8 years, 21 days ago) |
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Politics nowadays is about one thing, 'pay to play'.
If you don't get that you're one with the flock.
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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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quinn
some kinda love
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: sudly]
#23578743 - 08/26/16 07:00 AM (8 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mohammad Mosaddegh was an Iranian politician. He was the democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 until 1953... his administration introduced a range of progressive social and political reforms such as social security, rent control, and land reforms. His government's most notable policy, however, was the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry, which had been under British control since 1913..
Many Iranians regard Mosaddegh as the leading champion of secular democracy and resistance to foreign domination in Iran's modern history. Mosaddegh was removed from power in a 1953 coup d'état in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza orchestrated by the United Kingdom and the United States.
from Wiki
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quinn
some kinda love
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: quinn]
#23578754 - 08/26/16 07:06 AM (8 years, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
The 1954 Guatemalan coup d'état was a covert operation carried out by the United States Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) that deposed the democratically elected Guatemalan President Jacobo Árbenz and ended the Guatemalan Revolution. Code-named Operation PBSUCCESS, it installed the military dictatorship of Carlos Castillo Armas, the first in a series of U.S.-backed dictators who ruled Guatemala.
wiki
they did this because the progressive elected President was introducing socialist land reform which affected the United Fruit Company, whose hugely profitable business had been affected by the end to brutal labor practices.
the subsequent dictatorship led to genocide in Guatemala for many years to come
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: quinn]
#23579063 - 08/26/16 09:12 AM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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Yes, those are two precise examples of what I was talking about. Nice contributions by everyone.
The developments in Iran and Guatemala were nothing short of tragic. The U.S. top brass thought they could do whatever they wanted with no consequences throughout the 20th century. Well I guess this is turning out to be the century of consequences.
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quinn
some kinda love
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23580664 - 08/26/16 04:02 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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yeah it's really shocking..
sounds like you've been reading Chomsky?..
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Hippocampus
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23580707 - 08/26/16 04:12 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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Personally I don't feel that democracy is a very good way to do most things. Not unless that group share similar enough ideals. I am all for cutting out the worst of humanity from the decision making process of the governing bodies. I am glad that America is not a democracy.
I agree with you about preaching democracy without practicing it though. It's all a rather abstract almost meaningless concept to me to "build democracy" across the world when it's not really democracy we're talking about. People just mean that they think the way we do it in our country is the best way, and that if it were applied to everywhere else then the world would be a better place somehow.
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quinn
some kinda love
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: Hippocampus]
#23580782 - 08/26/16 04:33 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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and how do you propose to determine who is to be cut out and who isn't?
america is a democracy? (that is ruled by dollars)..
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iiilil
Stranger
Registered: 01/08/16
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23580900 - 08/26/16 05:16 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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The concept of a democracy is a framework for which people develop checkboxes/limits for how much of a say/blame they have for a matter/matters beyond their control. Not everyone should have a say as not everyone has the best intentions or understanding from which to make a decision. So, under this premise, the people elect representatives who are supposed to magically transcend the human nature that plagues everyone else who do make decisions with the best intentions and understanding.
However, given our nature, people then vote for representatives that are not necessarily best for everyone overall but whom best represent themselves and their interest many times to the detriment of others. So, the others elect a representative that fight for their beliefs and then we got a good ol' fashion fight between the representatives and further along power structures.
Of course, over time, the representatives feel they aren't paid for their great sacrifice. So, there are legal ways for them to line their pockets and lend their policy to the highest bidder. Money is still coming in and out, people just suffer a bit. However, since all of the blame is offloaded onto this complex system known as democracy, everyone deals with it and accepts it.
There are other countries/etc completely outside of a particular instance of democracy who the people care even less about and thus are willing to subjugate even further for the good of their system/democracy. So, the core function of democracy as you see just spirals more outward and outward to the detriment of those further and further away from the center of power/control.
The only reason this is held as a wildly successful system is because it conforms to the avg. instance of human nature.
So yeah... In general, people tend to preach a lot about what they don't practice. Thus why democracy is such a successful system. It creates a framework that perfectly suits the average person, allows them to put away this ugly truth, and get to business. It is a system 'of the people' for a reason.
Edited by iiilil (08/26/16 05:23 PM)
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: quinn]
#23580927 - 08/26/16 05:24 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said:
yeah it's really shocking..
sounds like you've been reading Chomsky?..
I've read Chomsky but Morris Berman is my favorite. His trilogy on American culture is unrivaled on the subject, imo.
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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: Hippocampus] 1
#23580950 - 08/26/16 05:33 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Hippocampus said:
Personally I don't feel that democracy is a very good way to do most things. Not unless that group share similar enough ideals. I am all for cutting out the worst of humanity from the decision making process of the governing bodies. I am glad that America is not a democracy.
America may not be a properly functioning democracy, and that could be a good thing, but do you really support the hegemonic plutocratic oligopoly we have going instead?
And as quinn asks, who decides who gets cut out? If you create that institutional level, you introduce a new system which will probably quickly become corrupt and controlled itself. I agree with you that a lot of people who know nothing about the issues are unfit to vote, but there's really no way around it if one allows a popular vote to take place. Perhaps we should do it as they do in China, and have committees made up of the brightest, smartest people to cast votes on matters of policy.
Quote:
I agree with you about preaching democracy without practicing it though. It's all a rather abstract almost meaningless concept to me to "build democracy" across the world when it's not really democracy we're talking about. People just mean that they think the way we do it in our country is the best way, and that if it were applied to everywhere else then the world would be a better place somehow.
Well the whole thing is bullshit. We had Dubya's "Operation Enduring Freedom" in Iraq in 2004 -- which was ludicrous. Firstly, a parliamentary democracy is not possible in the sectarian Iraq. Secondly, it's disingenuous, sanctimonious and hypocritical to pretend we really are trying to institute a society like ours in a country so totally alien to us, especially when all we really wanted was the strategic oil reserves.
Worse than that, we'll go into countries with liberal, secular systems which are flourishing and destroy them for political gain. Guatemala, Chile, Cuba, Iran, etc.
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akira_akuma
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23581380 - 08/26/16 07:18 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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preaching democracy without practicing it. sounds familiar.
sounds like having despots who coordinate with rebels.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23581420 - 08/26/16 07:26 PM (8 years, 20 days ago) |
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You should realize it's a UN agenda, we are but a spoke in that wheel. The Agenda 21 or 2030 or both is in fact far underway, and when the US DOJ signs off on it like they already have it's official. Don't take my word for it, Google it lol. Loretta meeting with Bill C. to talk about their grandkids already signed the doc.
Now, I predict and I think I'm on to something with wife Hillary already ready to be elected, that Bill will become Secretary General of the UN.
I'll bet you a dollar.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
Edited by LunarEclipse (08/26/16 07:29 PM)
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Hippocampus
Registered: 04/01/15
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23585522 - 08/27/16 11:22 PM (8 years, 19 days ago) |
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Hippocampus said:
Personally I don't feel that democracy is a very good way to do most things. Not unless that group share similar enough ideals. I am all for cutting out the worst of humanity from the decision making process of the governing bodies. I am glad that America is not a democracy.
America may not be a properly functioning democracy, and that could be a good thing, but do you really support the hegemonic plutocratic oligopoly we have going instead?
In principle? No. In practice? Yes. I am a citizen of the US and participate on that minute level to support whatever our country is doing. I'm not about to leave the country. Are you?
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
Hippocampus said:
I agree with you about preaching democracy without practicing it though. It's all a rather abstract almost meaningless concept to me to "build democracy" across the world when it's not really democracy we're talking about. People just mean that they think the way we do it in our country is the best way, and that if it were applied to everywhere else then the world would be a better place somehow.
Well the whole thing is bullshit. We had Dubya's "Operation Enduring Freedom" in Iraq in 2004 -- which was ludicrous. Firstly, a parliamentary democracy is not possible in the sectarian Iraq. Secondly, it's disingenuous, sanctimonious and hypocritical to pretend we really are trying to institute a society like ours in a country so totally alien to us, especially when all we really wanted was the strategic oil reserves.
Worse than that, we'll go into countries with liberal, secular systems which are flourishing and destroy them for political gain. Guatemala, Chile, Cuba, Iran, etc.
I guess some people are manipulated by narratives of altruism. I certainly was in 2003. I supported the Iraq invasion then. I believed all the hype about WMDs and evil Saddam. I think a lot of other people were disillusioned by the way it all played out. I think if the country could retroactively have the 2000 or 2004 presidential election over again, Bush would get a very small fraction of the vote. But hindsight is 20/20. Then again, human memory is a lot shorter than elves. We are so short sighted. Today I hear many people proclaim that we need to go into Iraq again full bore and take out those evil evil ISIS fuckers.  Makes me feel a little cynical about the capability of humanity to simply not destroy itself. It seems we're bent on it.
Maybe some day humanity will unite and the Vulcans will visit us and we'll realize that space aliens are much better enemies than ourselves.
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DividedQuantum
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: Hippocampus]
#23586307 - 08/28/16 09:31 AM (8 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
Quote:
America may not be a properly functioning democracy, and that could be a good thing, but do you really support the hegemonic plutocratic oligopoly we have going instead?
In principle? No. In practice? Yes. I am a citizen of the US and participate on that minute level to support whatever our country is doing. I'm not about to leave the country. Are you?
No, but as a citizen I can harbor and voice my dissent. The reason this is not a problem is that it is not a threat to anyone. The authorities assume correctly that a person like me will not become violent. And so it goes.
Quote:
I guess some people are manipulated by narratives of altruism. I certainly was in 2003. I supported the Iraq invasion then. I believed all the hype about WMDs and evil Saddam.
I didn't because I was well informed. It was known to anyone who care to know that Iraq did not have WMD's, nor would have have used them on anyone if they did. Saddam had a very complicated relationship with the U.S., but that doesn't change the fact that we betrayed him completely and caused the deaths of millions of Iraqis. Our actions there are unforgivable.
Quote:
I think a lot of other people were disillusioned by the way it all played out. I think if the country could retroactively have the 2000 or 2004 presidential election over again, Bush would get a very small fraction of the vote. But hindsight is 20/20. Then again, human memory is a lot shorter than elves. We are so short sighted. Today I hear many people proclaim that we need to go into Iraq again full bore and take out those evil evil ISIS fuckers. Makes me feel a little cynical about the capability of humanity to simply not destroy itself. It seems we're bent on it.
One thing we do is never to learn from the past. And GWB was quite possibly the worst president we've had.
Quote:
Maybe some day humanity will unite and the Vulcans will visit us and we'll realize that space aliens are much better enemies than ourselves.
I wouldn't count on it. And self-respecting alien race would probably just leave us to our own devices.
Edited by DividedQuantum (08/29/16 07:59 AM)
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quinn
some kinda love
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23588546 - 08/28/16 09:43 PM (8 years, 18 days ago) |
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this is an interesting conversation that u r having with yourself 
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head
Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,966
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: quinn]
#23588569 - 08/28/16 09:52 PM (8 years, 18 days ago) |
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Not sure what you mean...
My post was a reply to Hippocampus.
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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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quinn
some kinda love
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 6,799
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Re: Preaching democracy without practicing it [Re: DividedQuantum]
#23588897 - 08/29/16 12:31 AM (8 years, 18 days ago) |
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look at who you quoted
WHEN YOU SEE IT
Edited by quinn (08/29/16 12:38 AM)
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