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Offlineniteman
Registered: 06/29/11
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The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems.
    #23575012 - 08/25/16 04:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Particularly the religion Marcionism or something like that believes that we were created by a mean and malevelont god for the purpose of enslavement in flesh and that Jesus came as something other than a man to reveal the truth of th true benevolent and generous god of a higher plane of existence.
    I personally have no proof of or need for religion but I find the idea of Christians viewing the gods of th old and new testament as seperate and opposing entitites comparable to the god/devil relationship. The main dfference is in this faith our creator god is our enemy and enslaver not a jealous but fair god.
  It actually makes more sense in theory that the completely opposing and contradictory nature and actions of the two support the idea.

In my opinion there are two possible truths

1. There is an evil or selfish creator god who imprisons
His creations in flesh and physical anguish as well as the existence of a more powerful and benevolent loving god who sent Jesus not as a man but as a being and he never died on a cross but returned to that gods realm after revealing the truth of the good god.
We can then conclude that this is hell realized and only through death can we hope to escape. Therefore an afterlife would likely include hitler, dahmer, and many others of indesireable company. In that case God is inept and useless and should also be abandoned for hisflawed version of an afterlife

2 The fli-side is maybe there is only the one god and he changed drastically so therefore was not perfect and was depicted as a cruel dictator of humanity
Please share your opinion and I dont mean to offend anyone.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: niteman]
    #23575404 - 08/25/16 09:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

your taking mythology literally. Actually it is the religions like christianity which want you to take their myth not only literally but historically.
However the Greeks also with their 'gods' of Olympus also insisted in their actual superhuman reality

These tales are really spun by an elite to control you. If they can make you fear your body, and nature and the natural world you are easier to control because you are unstable. You are in fear, and bewilderment, and therefore the author-ity spinning these absurd tales can have the gullible believer clinging to their sht for dear life. They of course hold out promises like a 'promised land' (AFTER you die o'course, while they rob you of land and possessions and money etc when your alive... hmmm:strokebeard:), heaven, nirvana etc

These control freaks have known since at least 'In the 18th century B.C., the Babylonian King Hammurabi fashioned a compendium of 282 laws that set standards of conduct and justice for his empire in ancient Mesopotamia' that if they can claim 'gods' are in contact with them and THEY tell you to do this and that that this emphasizes their authority. This is why the Bible is called the 'Word of God'. For how dare you disobey 'God', right, and first tale is how Adam and Eve did just that and caused trouble for everyone that was to come, even nature itself.

So please see through this BS.

But also explore, because you will discover that which undermines their mind control

For example, going to the core of where they got this idea of 'saviours' coming from 'above' to save the 'sinners' etc we have to understand the significance of psychedelic mushrooms . To this day these amazing fungi are VERY significant, and they always have been, but difference is that then they had no technology that told them about microscopic spores and so the dualistic mindset believed they came from above after thunderstorms, miraculously and were gods! John Allegro in The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross claims that they believed 'they' were their 'son of God made flesh'

So now we have to compare that interpretation with the one that wasn't dualistic and did not see nature and the body as traps but rather sacred. This is the religion of the Great Mother. In this mythos the Earth is the very body of the Goddess, so even though they too would not have had the means to know of spores, seed or not they grew from her Body and were known as the sons and lovers of the Goddess, and eating them took the celebrant deeper into the mysteries of nature. Do you see the radical difference of interpretation and thus set and setting?
In this lunar-based myth (the others are solar-based) there is no silly idea of some evil creator of nature. All of that induces paranoia, and seeking escape from one's very being. We are nature. We grow out of nature like leaves grow out of trees.


Edited by zzripz (08/25/16 09:12 AM)


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Offlineniteman
Registered: 06/29/11
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: zzripz]
    #23577191 - 08/25/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I definitely dont believe this lol. I thought it was unusual for Christianity to have such an unusual offshoot but I definitely do not believd in an "afterlife", "soul", or "god". I cannot have faith in anything that cannot be proved or demonstrated for me to observe.

I personally do not believe in anything even the definite existence of reality. I consider myself an optimistic nihlist of sorts. I do not hope to find meaning or satisfaction in existence and awareness.
I believe only in free will, pleasure and using willpower to change my reality for the better. Life itself is instinctual and preservation focused with the will to live stronger than any other. Humans are unlucky enough to know their own mortality and so we shape our beliefs and surroundings to alter our reality.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: zzripz]
    #23577312 - 08/25/16 07:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
your taking mythology literally. Actually it is the religions like christianity which want you to take their myth not only literally but historically.
However the Greeks also with their 'gods' of Olympus also insisted in their actual superhuman reality

These tales are really spun by an elite to control you. If they can make you fear your body, and nature and the natural world you are easier to control because you are unstable. You are in fear, and bewilderment, and therefore the author-ity spinning these absurd tales can have the gullible believer clinging to their sht for dear life. They of course hold out promises like a 'promised land' (AFTER you die o'course, while they rob you of land and possessions and money etc when your alive... hmmm:strokebeard:), heaven, nirvana etc

These control freaks have known since at least 'In the 18th century B.C., the Babylonian King Hammurabi fashioned a compendium of 282 laws that set standards of conduct and justice for his empire in ancient Mesopotamia' that if they can claim 'gods' are in contact with them and THEY tell you to do this and that that this emphasizes their authority. This is why the Bible is called the 'Word of God'. For how dare you disobey 'God', right, and first tale is how Adam and Eve did just that and caused trouble for everyone that was to come, even nature itself.

So please see through this BS.

But also explore, because you will discover that which undermines their mind control

For example, going to the core of where they got this idea of 'saviours' coming from 'above' to save the 'sinners' etc we have to understand the significance of psychedelic mushrooms . To this day these amazing fungi are VERY significant, and they always have been, but difference is that then they had no technology that told them about microscopic spores and so the dualistic mindset believed they came from above after thunderstorms, miraculously and were gods! John Allegro in The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross claims that they believed 'they' were their 'son of God made flesh'

So now we have to compare that interpretation with the one that wasn't dualistic and did not see nature and the body as traps but rather sacred. This is the religion of the Great Mother. In this mythos the Earth is the very body of the Goddess, so even though they too would not have had the means to know of spores, seed or not they grew from her Body and were known as the sons and lovers of the Goddess, and eating them took the celebrant deeper into the mysteries of nature. Do you see the radical difference of interpretation and thus set and setting?
In this lunar-based myth (the others are solar-based) there is no silly idea of some evil creator of nature. All of that induces paranoia, and seeking escape from one's very being. We are nature. We grow out of nature like leaves grow out of trees.





So what is the explanation for why there is so much pain, suffering, and evil in the world according to this latter myth?

Quote:


So now we have to compare that interpretation with the one that wasn't dualistic and did not see nature and the body as traps but rather sacred.




Christianity sees the body and nature as sacred. The Bible equates the body with a temple.

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

Ideas like fallen nature and the demiurge came from people asking why if creation is good, why do we have to suffer so much? Why is there is disease, sickness, every day aches and pains, death, decay. Why do animals eat each other to survive? Why is there evil?

What's your answer?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


Edited by Peyote Road (08/26/16 01:33 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23578653 - 08/26/16 05:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

So what is the explanation for why there is so much pain, suffering, and evil in the world according to this latter myth?

Ideas like fallen nature and the demiurge came from people asking why if creation is good, why do we have to suffer so much? Why is there is disease, sickness, every day aches and pains, death, decay. Why do animals eat each other to survive? Why is there evil?

What's your answer?




You are assuming that all peoples in all types of belief systems worried about this. Ie wondering why there has to be suffering and death, but I do not think that is so. To really understand your question you have to really get to grips with polar relational thinking and feeling:


IF there were no pain, how would you even know pleasure?

would it be possible to have only-pleasure? HOW would you know it was pleasure without a complimentary experience? How can you know light without dark and vice verse?

Can you not see that pain&pleasure are a dynamic, and it is only abstract analytical reasoning/thinking which detects/experiences states of being it terms 'suffering' and 'pleasure' and THEN itemizes it/cuts it (one part of the whole dynamic) away from a dynamic and from there conceptualizes it as an independent entity and then will argue you can only have eg 'pleasure'

Look, I am full of energy, and am in-the-zone and running around.....THEN, I become sleepy, and/or down, and am in repose. See how this whole affair is a dynamic

If you don't then you start imposing absurd dualistic beliefs on people(and nature) which mindfk them and cause all forms of evil. IE you may start claiming they are possessed by 'evil' spirits!


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: zzripz]
    #23579988 - 08/26/16 01:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I never said all people in all belief systems worried this nor did I say the proper alternative is a world of only pleasure, you are making these assumptions.

I see how the opposites re-enforce each other but are you saying this is the best possible world that can exist? If pleasure and pain need each other, do they need each other 100%? I mean it is a zero sum game where for every little bit of enjoyment you experience you must pay for it with an equal amount of suffering? If so, I think you can see why the gnostics sought to escape this realm.

And why do some people seem to have vastly more amounts of pain and suffering in their lives than pleasure?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Onlinedeff
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: Peyote Road] * 2
    #23580014 - 08/26/16 01:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think it's the conceptual mind that works with dualities (at least most people's conceptual minds) - so to "know" something conceptually you have to contrast it to some extent to something it isn't, an apparent opposite. But on the level of felt and sensed reality, I don't think we need apparent dualities in order to have a certain experience. I think we can feel for instance positive energy and moods all the time (though of course most don't) without that in any way diminishing the feeling or enjoyment of the moment to moment experience. Without an apparent opposite though, the conceptual mind in its current way of operating would find it more difficult to think about the felt experience and assign conceptual value to it (as the conceptual mind, in its current way of functioning, uses contrast to assign value). That's my way of thinking of it at least :smile:


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: zzripz]
    #23582019 - 08/26/16 10:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

something about ambiguity.
Quote:

deff said:
I think it's the conceptual mind that works with dualities (at least most people's conceptual minds) - so to "know" something conceptually you have to contrast it to some extent to something it isn't, an apparent opposite. But on the level of felt and sensed reality, I don't think we need apparent dualities in order to have a certain experience. I think we can feel for instance positive energy and moods all the time (though of course most don't) without that in any way diminishing the feeling or enjoyment of the moment to moment experience. Without an apparent opposite though, the conceptual mind in its current way of operating would find it more difficult to think about the felt experience and assign conceptual value to it (as the conceptual mind, in its current way of functioning, uses contrast to assign value). That's my way of thinking of it at least :smile:



that is a good explanation. like zzripz.

but zzripz, seems to want to put all human religion and mythology into the same power paradigm, forgetting his words about leaving room for ambiguity.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The idea dual goda in early Christian religon systems. [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23582511 - 08/27/16 04:56 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
I never said all people in all belief systems worried this nor did I say the proper alternative is a world of only pleasure, you are making these assumptions.

I see how the opposites re-enforce each other but are you saying this is the best possible world that can exist? If pleasure and pain need each other, do they need each other 100%? I mean it is a zero sum game where for every little bit of enjoyment you experience you must pay for it with an equal amount of suffering? If so, I think you can see why the gnostics sought to escape this realm.

And why do some people seem to have vastly more amounts of pain and suffering in their lives than pleasure?




'opposites' only 're-inforce' each other when it is not understood that they are complementaries within a wholistic dynamic system of potentiality. IF I demand I am 'good' and 'pure' then i will usually re-inforce 'evil' and 'impurity' because I will begin seeing 'it' everywhere, and want to eradicate it because i fear it in myself, and/or 'getting me'. I, in other words, project outwardly what I fear within. This process is what happened in the 'Burning Times' centuries ago when Christians began persecuting, torturing and mass murdering others they believed were possessed by the 'Devil' and 'his' 'demons', eg 'evil! I do not say this is the best possible world, because it is based on utter ignore-ance fueled by dualistic thinking.

It is not that pleasure and pain 'need' each other. That is clumsy description. It is more that there can be no actual reality conceivable where you can have pleasure without pain nor the reverse. it is a dynamic whole. You may as well argue you can have a 'front' without a 'back'. It makes no sense whatsoever, because how can you tell a front without a back and vice verse. We have experiences, diverse, we call 'pleasure' amd likewise those we call 'pain'. Conceptualiizing these states, abstracting' them as terms, denies the complexity of the utterly complex dynamic.

you claim that for an amount of pleasure we must pay for it with equal amount of suffering, and this is why eg Gnostics dreamed of escaping what was seen as a trap?

Again you, despite seeming to pretend otherwise (to me anyhow) seem to envisage a state, place where it can be all-pleasure, far away from nature, which the Orphics, and Gnostics saw as a trap.
I am not even saying there might not be dimension s of experience where you could have a taste of that. Some pagans had myths about Summerland, etc where there was no pain, death etc. Some people have had OBEs and NDEs where they claim to visit places like that. BUT they usually return here, and we have no clue what actually happens after actual physical death. But these dimensions of experience could be part OF the dynamic I am talking about, rather than actual static states of being Gnostics and others, the Christians with their Heaven, and City of God, dream about. Real ecstasy, as many of us know from psychedelic experience is going beyond static dualistic ideas

Of course it is true that terrible things can happen to us, and even babies, etc. Awful births where the baby is terribly deformed, children in horrific accidents, getting terrible diseases, in war zone and so on. This is true.


Edited by zzripz (08/27/16 05:00 AM)


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