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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582223 - 08/27/16 12:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Jesus preaches charity and sharing, not envy, jealousy, covetousness, or theft.




Precisely, so he was in fact, anti-capitalist in ideology. Worshipping and acquiring worthless materials such as iPhones and Porsches, wanting a better house because your neighbor built a better house, hoarding all your wealth while billions of people are suffering and poor... these are not the followings of Jesus.




Naw, you still don't get it. You went off the tracks to scrounge up that half-baked conclusion.




What about Jesus tells you he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society?


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Invisibleohcrapitsnico
The Other One
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Posts: 2,720
Loc: Houston
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582229 - 08/27/16 12:21 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Jesus understood that humanity was full of diversity in capability and the society they made had become fundamentally unequal. He preached repeatedly about looking out for the poor, the weak, the vulnerable, and the dispossessed and a sense of societal responsibility to right these wrongs.

In a pure free market capitalist system it is every man for himself. A lot of failed states in Africa and the Middle East are perfect modern examples of this system where there is no government. Perhaps you would like an example from our own past from the nineteenth century when our own government gave free reign to the market and a handful of people came to dominate the wealth and resources of this country and rule over the peons with brutality.

There will always be people that are trampled by the powerful and rich and that is a fact of life. In pure capitalism there is zero hope for these people and jesus railed against that.

I hope you enjoy paying for your services when the free market merges into a monopoly dominated market and you have zero power over what you pay for and how much. Now that is theft.


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: ohcrapitsnico]
    #23582248 - 08/27/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ohcrapitsnico said:
I hope you enjoy paying for your services when the free market merges into a monopoly dominated market and you have zero power over what you pay for and how much. Now that is theft.




It's already happening, if you want medical care (which is something everybody needs) you will have to pay for it, and you basically have no say in how much you will pay for these services. Surgeons recently have doubled and even tripled their price for surgeries--now $15K for a procedure that only cost $6K a couple years ago.

Same with gasoline. You need your car to drive to work, yet soon gasoline may be $15 a gallon not too far in the future.


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Registered: 05/05/03
Posts: 19,797
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Crystal G]
    #23582263 - 08/27/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Jesus preaches charity and sharing, not envy, jealousy, covetousness, or theft.




Precisely, so he was in fact, anti-capitalist in ideology. Worshipping and acquiring worthless materials such as iPhones and Porsches, wanting a better house because your neighbor built a better house, hoarding all your wealth while billions of people are suffering and poor... these are not the followings of Jesus.




Naw, you still don't get it. You went off the tracks to scrounge up that half-baked conclusion.




What about Jesus tells you he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society?




That's a straw man argument if there ever was one, but I'll right the ship for you. I never said "he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society". Love the sinner, hate the sin. Greed is going to exist in Capitalism the same as it does in Communism. But with Communism you lose your freedom. God is freedom.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582270 - 08/27/16 12:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
That's a straw man argument if there ever was one, but I'll right the ship for you. I never said "he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society". Love the sinner, hate the sin. Greed is going to exist in Capitalism the same as it does in Communism. But with Communism you lose your freedom. God is freedom.




Theoretically not all communism is state-sanctioned, have you never heard of anarcho-communism (also known as libertarian communism)? Chomsky is a big proponent of this.


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
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Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Crystal G]
    #23582280 - 08/27/16 12:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

This is the best thread I've ever made.


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
Free sVs!
Female


Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
Loc: Center of the Universe
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Crystal G]
    #23582283 - 08/27/16 12:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
That's a straw man argument if there ever was one, but I'll right the ship for you. I never said "he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society". Love the sinner, hate the sin. Greed is going to exist in Capitalism the same as it does in Communism. But with Communism you lose your freedom. God is freedom.




Theoretically not all communism is state-sanctioned, have you never heard of anarcho-communism (also known as libertarian communism)? Chomsky is a big proponent of this.




Libertarian communism is best communism. I wish people would realize that you can, in fact, have your cake and eat it too. Instead they side with the fascists.

The above comment is not sarcastic... with the level of automation available to us as a society, we could abolish work, if the political will existed. I think we should abolish work. We need a basic income. A big one.


Edited by Sophistic Radiance (08/27/16 12:54 AM)


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OfflinePartoftheSource
NAUT GUILTY
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Registered: 05/27/15
Posts: 3,023
Loc: MIDWEST
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #23582292 - 08/27/16 12:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Whats all this shit about Trump wanting to register religion so he can put it on I.D.'s? He's using muslims and terrorist's as a distraction for fucking with our freedom of religion.

Didn't some people try this once? I seem to remember them using a star to identify all the Jews.


--------------------
Shroomery Stickers!


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Posts: 19,797
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: ohcrapitsnico]
    #23582293 - 08/27/16 12:59 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ohcrapitsnico said:
I hope you enjoy paying for your services when the free market merges into a monopoly dominated market and you have zero power over what you pay for and how much. Now that is theft.




When I have zero power over what I pay for and for how much? That's called Communism, Comrade. I'm not arguing that Capitalism can't be usurped by the very same kinds of forces and human desires that would otherwise bring us into Communism. In fact, it is and it has been. That's what the corporate monopoly is all about and that's what Globalism has in store for us. But this debate is getting off track again. I asked if you could prove that Jesus was a Communist and so far you've been unable to do so. Jesus was not a communist and we are just going to keep going around and around until you're able to swallow your pride and admit that I'm right. Or until you get fed and leave after erroneously deciding that all I've done is just used some sort of logical argumentative loophole to smack your premise down.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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InvisibleModestMouse
IM WALKIN ON SUNSHINE
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Registered: 05/06/13
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582294 - 08/27/16 01:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Y'all definitely get off on this
In a weird sexual way
I know it


--------------------
Anyone got a lowpass filter in this biiiiash?


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Crystal G]
    #23582295 - 08/27/16 01:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
That's a straw man argument if there ever was one, but I'll right the ship for you. I never said "he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society". Love the sinner, hate the sin. Greed is going to exist in Capitalism the same as it does in Communism. But with Communism you lose your freedom. God is freedom.




Theoretically not all communism is state-sanctioned, have you never heard of anarcho-communism (also known as libertarian communism)? Chomsky is a big proponent of this.




Only works in tribes and small communities.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582296 - 08/27/16 01:01 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
That's a straw man argument if there ever was one, but I'll right the ship for you. I never said "he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society". Love the sinner, hate the sin. Greed is going to exist in Capitalism the same as it does in Communism. But with Communism you lose your freedom. God is freedom.




Theoretically not all communism is state-sanctioned, have you never heard of anarcho-communism (also known as libertarian communism)? Chomsky is a big proponent of this.




Only works in tribes and small communities.




That's not the point. You said that all communism is theft, which is simply not true. Plenty of small communities and tribes have sustained communism within their communities.


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #23582301 - 08/27/16 01:05 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sophistic Radiance said:
with the level of automation available to us as a society, we could abolish work, if the political will existed. I think we should abolish work. We need a basic income. A big one.




Who's going to build it, program it, maintain it, repair it? You? Or someone else? Enjoy your fantasy pipe dream, but it ain't happening without moral boundaries being crossed. Jesus doesn't preach immorality, he preaches morality.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #23582302 - 08/27/16 01:05 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sophistic Radiance said:
Libertarian communism is best communism. I wish people would realize that you can, in fact, have your cake and eat it too. Instead they side with the fascists.

The above comment is not sarcastic... with the level of automation available to us as a society, we could abolish work, if the political will existed. I think we should abolish work. We need a basic income. A big one.




All work won't be automated until decades from now at least. For now only 40% of work is able to be automated by robots. There is still the need for movie editors, hair stylists, veterinarians, sports athletes, engineers, etc.

Peyote Zen is right though, anarchy communism could really only work in a small community. Not in a population of 300 million. 

But anyway, if everybody stops working, then where does the basic income come from?


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Crystal G]
    #23582314 - 08/27/16 01:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
That's a straw man argument if there ever was one, but I'll right the ship for you. I never said "he would love greedy, pro-corporate, capitalist society". Love the sinner, hate the sin. Greed is going to exist in Capitalism the same as it does in Communism. But with Communism you lose your freedom. God is freedom.




Theoretically not all communism is state-sanctioned, have you never heard of anarcho-communism (also known as libertarian communism)? Chomsky is a big proponent of this.




Only works in tribes and small communities.




That's not the point. You said that all communism is theft, which is simply not true. Plenty of small communities and tribes have sustained communism within their communities.




So long as it all happens voluntarily, then it's not theft. And tribes can banish into the wilderness anyone who doesn't put in (ie: leave them to die on their own). It's not technically murder and it creates an incentive to participate (or a deterrent against non-participation, depending on how you look at it). Intriguing. Still doesn't make Jesus a Communist, though.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582316 - 08/27/16 01:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Also keep in mind that Jesus didn't live in a hunter gatherer tribe. He lived in a civilization. Communism would work the same then as it would now (ie: failure and human misery).


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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InvisibleSophistic Radiance
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Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 43,135
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582317 - 08/27/16 01:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Dude, is this a schtick or are you literally a missionary? What's going on here? WTF is your purpose on this forum?


--------------------
Enlil said:
You really are the worst kind of person.



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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 8 months, 6 days
Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Great Scott]
    #23582318 - 08/27/16 01:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:

So long as it all happens voluntarily, then it's not theft. And tribes can banish into the wilderness anyone who doesn't put in (ie: leave them to die on their own). It's not technically murder and it creates an incentive to participate (or a deterrent against non-participation, depending on how you look at it). Intriguing. Still doesn't make Jesus a Communist, though.




You could argue that capitalism is not voluntary. After all, if you've been unemployed for some time and are struggling to make ends meet, you will have to take the first job you can find, regardless of whether you think it's a fair wage or not. For every job somebody is willing to refuse out of principle, there are 3 others willing to replace you.

And if we don't partake in capitalism, we have the choice to starve and become homeless. Is that truly voluntary?

Then there is the fact about having to pay outrageous prices for services that you may need, such as medicine or gasoline. Is that not theft? When the medical markets and OPEC start conspiring to collude against the commoner to all start charging more at the same time so you have no choice but to pay, is that not theft?

Lots of people end up looking for sex work or dealing drugs just to make ends meet, do you truly think in some of these cases if they had the choice this is what they would do with their lives?


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Sophistic Radiance]
    #23582324 - 08/27/16 01:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Sophistic Radiance said:
Dude, is this a schtick or are you literally a missionary? What's going on here? WTF is your purpose on this forum?




Nico randomly popped in and made the claim that Jesus was a commie. He stated it emphatically as though it were fact even though it's not. I didn't initiate any of this.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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OfflineGreat Scott
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Re: fuck the alt-right [Re: Crystal G]
    #23582331 - 08/27/16 01:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

PeyoteZen said:

So long as it all happens voluntarily, then it's not theft. And tribes can banish into the wilderness anyone who doesn't put in (ie: leave them to die on their own). It's not technically murder and it creates an incentive to participate (or a deterrent against non-participation, depending on how you look at it). Intriguing. Still doesn't make Jesus a Communist, though.




You could argue that capitalism is not voluntary. After all, if you've been unemployed for some time and are struggling to make ends meet, you will have to take the first job you can find, regardless of whether you think it's a fair wage or not. For every job somebody is willing to refuse out of principle, there are 3 others willing to replace you.

And if we don't partake in capitalism, we have the choice to starve and become homeless. Is that truly voluntary?

Then there is the fact about having to pay outrageous prices for services that you may need, such as medicine or gasoline. Is that not theft? When the medical markets and OPEC start conspiring to collude against the commoner to all start charging more at the same time so you have no choice but to pay, is that not theft?

Lots of people end up looking for sex work or dealing drugs just to make ends meet, do you truly think in some of these cases if they had the choice this is what they would do with their lives?




Jesus would never prefer a system that inevitably results in failure and human misery 100% of the time, versus a system that at least has a chance not to, while simultaneously preserving our God-given rights.


--------------------
:thumbup: :thumbdown:


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