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InvisibleSclorch
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Authors of Holy Books
    #2357434 - 02/20/04 02:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ever notice how most of the "holy" books weren't written by those responsible for the messages contained within them?

The Quran - not written by Allah or Muhammed
The Bible - not written by God or Jesus
Any Buddhist text - not written by Siddhartha Gautama

And while we're at it... Socrates never wrote a book and Lao Tzu might not have written some (or all) of the Tao Te Ching.

hmmm....


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: Sclorch]
    #2358195 - 02/20/04 08:05 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Since it is highly doubtful that Lao Tzu ever existed - your quite right but you are missing the point.
The point of the first two religions quoted is that their should be faith despite the lack of physical evidence - the original hebrew old testament and Torah is the same - and the original was quite different to the one we see today.
In fact the original words were translated 'and [the] god[s] created...' There was originally a male and female deity in ancient hebrew religion. This is documented fact.
As for Lao Tzu - the Tao Te Ching is assumed to have been written by about 30+ scholars three hundred years after it is assumed Lao Tzu lived - if ofcourse he isnt a fictional character designed to add credence to their work. Which by the way i think is the most profound pieces of philosophica work ever written.
Maybe also the prophets were all to busy conducting miracles, changes to society to bother.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: Sclorch]
    #2358702 - 02/20/04 11:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

And despite the occasional reference to "The Book of Sclorch", sclorch has never written a holy book, which is pretty amazing.  :stoned:


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2359119 - 02/20/04 01:33 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

bm: your quite right but you are missing the point.
I think you missed MY point. hehe

My point is that if the originators of those ideas (assuming they existed - Buddha probably did exist) wanted their ideas to be written in a book, they would have done it themselves (well, God/Allah wouldn't have). This leads me to think that it might be possible that these thinkers/teachers/prophets did NOT want their words to be written down. Maybe they knew the dangers of misinterpretation.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: Sclorch]
    #2361853 - 02/21/04 01:17 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Or - if these people went and simply wrote their own books and spent less time doing the many actual things that may have givenmerit to their stories, they would have been far less relevant. I think the fact of the matter is that because these people may have had such an impact on other people's lives and insisted on various teachings and beliefs they would have expected some sort of written record. But by not doing it themselves it opens the door for human interpretations which often change things completely.


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Offlinenemesis
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #2367006 - 02/22/04 06:52 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Muhammad was an illeterate man, he taught the Qur'an by reciting it, which is what the word Qur'an actually means, recite/learn .. In the early days the book was known of by heart by most kids by the age of 14, in Ottamon times the Hadiths (sayings of Muhammad[peace be upon him]) were known off by heart aswell.

It was written down to learn from and to pass on but not before his companions and followers knew it off by heart to perfection. So he wanted his message to be passed on and learnt/recited (Qur'an) .. as it was traditionally learn't word for word by mouth in the time of the Prophet. When the battle of Yamaamah where the people who knew it by heart were in danger, it was written down. The man in charge considered this harder then to move a mountain for it was something that the Messenger(pbuh) himself had not done and the man in charge of this great task was the one who wrote down fragments before on thin white stones, who collected and it was recieved by Abu Bakr, most trusted companion of Muhammad(pbuh). When the first Caliph was appointed it was written down but the teachings were still by word for word recitation.


As for the other books, you can see curroption in the message.. We don't know if Jesus(pbuh) wrote the Gospel but we do know that some time later inspiration came to the four disciples to write it down. Which have many contradictions between each other and have been translated to nth degree and mutated. Maybe Jesus(pbuh) knew, 'my message is not being recieved, I will not write it down due to misinterpretation.' by the "lost sheep of Israel" (Jews).
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" and also said: "It is not right to take the children?s bread and toss it to their dogs", Matthew 15:21-28.
I will not get into the Crucifiction and how the real message of Jesus (pbuh) was lost.


The Buddha's message is one which is a clear example of how a message can be misinterpreted, Buddha never claimed divinity he claimed to be nothing but a 'preacher':
According to the Dhammapada, Sacred Books of East volume 10 pg., 67: "The Jathagatas (Buddhas) are only Preachers."

The teachings of the Buddha has had alot of innovations that are contradictory to the teachings of the Buddha.
'Tri Pitaka? composed of three books, written in Pali. These are the books of the Hinayana or Theravada sect of Buddhism, which claims to be more orthodox than the other sect, Mahayana. Mahayanist use Mahavastu and Lalitavastu as their sacred books written in Sanskrit. These books of the Hinayana sect and the following are the collections in this division of Buddhism.

I) ?Sutta Pitaka? collection of sermons and discourses of Buddha. Supposed to be the most important of the Pitakas as a source book of Buddhist doctrine. It consists of five divisions known as ?Nikayas?.

1. Deega Nikaya
2. Majjima Nikaya
3. Sanyukta Nikaya
4. Anguttara Nikaya and
5. Kuddaka Nikaya.

II) ?Vinaya Pitaka? composed of rules of conduct, particularly of monks.
III) ?Abhidhamma Pitaka? analysis of doctrine.

In any of these texts we do not find any evidence or statement approving or promoting of idol worship by Buddha. On the contrary, Buddha has opposed making of idols, when Ananda, a close relative, the most devoted attendant and a leading monk sought permission to make an idol of Buddha. The practice of idol worship in present day Buddhism is an innovation, defying the teachings of Buddha.

The direct personal teaching of the great men was for the understanding of the followers, the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) would recite and teach verses then explain with sayings(hadiths) in more clarity. The message of the Quran was at first preserved in the hearts of the followers and when the expansion of Islam grew at immense rate after the Prophet(pbuh) it was required to write it down for the non-Arabs to understand.

Buddha, Jesus and Lao Tsu(peace be upon them) probably knew the value of teaching as to not raise misinterpretations(as the Prophet[pbuh] knew) and where they failed was the preservation of their teachings while Daodejing is fairly well preserved alot of the translations are weak and the history of its origins is vague and the Daoist superstitious beliefs of luck charms and idol worship in some sects had no bases on the teachings of Lao Tsu(or whoever :P ) ..

I leave you here, may your search for the Truth be clear and fruitful.


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May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: nemesis]
    #2367013 - 02/22/04 07:02 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

nemesis said:
When the first Caliph was appointed it was written down but the teachings were still by word for word recitation.




So the exception for Islam's teachings to be written down exactly as they were originally CAN be made while every other religion's teachings were severely fucked up? And you know this how?

And I never remember hearing anything about worshipping an idol when Buddhism has been described to me... hhhm.....
Peace.


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: nemesis]
    #2367392 - 02/22/04 12:05 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Muhammad was an illeterate man
I ditest illeterisy!

As for the other books, you can see curroption in the message..
I looked, but could find no curroption.

I will not get into the Crucifiction and how the real message of Jesus (pbuh) was lost.
Hey, that is very clever play on words; the "Cruci-fiction". Are you saying it never happened? :shiftyeyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: Swami]
    #2368053 - 02/22/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Muhammad was an illeterate man
I ditest illeterisy!




I see what you did there :lol:


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Offlinenemesis
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2368492 - 02/22/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

You learn't it better then most :smile: because they are practises contrary to the teachings of Buddha. I learn't Buddhist teachings without idol worship aswell but many, many, around the world pray to statues, idols and celebrate days of worship of the Buddha. Go figure :P

Lol, yeah didn't know how to spell that, illiterate :S .. You can believe that Islamic teachings were curropted if you like but you can try to find it if you like. While some of the spiritual teachings have remained somewhat intact, including Buddhist, the misinterpretation of man happens, even in Islam.
The curroption of the Gospels for example is clear because man is fallible.


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May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.


Edited by nemesis (02/23/04 02:19 AM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: nemesis]
    #2370806 - 02/23/04 06:31 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Great info - much appreciated.
From many of the modern texts regarding Lao Tzu, the existence of this man as a real and natural individual us doubted - and if he did live, the Tao Te Ching was written atleast 300 years after he was reputed to have lived, putting into doubt how much of his teachings had been or had not been altered. When analysed, there appears to be different writing styles within the book, suggesting it had atleast two authors. Also there is still hot debate about the order of the verses as published in western/eastern material today.
I thought id re-iterate the fact that both islam and the new testament use the old hebrew testament as their sort of basis of ideas. Which causes difficulty when we can see that there were originally two gods - a male and female god - and that the female was deleted for unknown reasons - the word used in much of this text has an original and literal translation of 'gods' rather than god.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: Swami]
    #2371196 - 02/23/04 11:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"crucifiction"
~
lazarus long had a time corps mission mounted to examine the career of the carpenter rabbi...
in spite of having full temporal flexibility, the agents involved in the operation were unable to locate said individual (plenty of would-be messiahs, and plenty of crucixions); eventually concluded that there was no such person & the entire new terstament canon was the invention of a particlarly gifter 3rd century fabulist... (& thus labeling the alleged events of the passio story as "the crucifiction"...)
(of course, lazarus long himself is a fictional character, which may make his musings suspect...)
:wink:
~
(however,  in the initial posting, it is possible that "crucifiction" is a mis-spelling, rather than a (rather perjorative) purposeful substituion, no?)
~


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old enough to know better
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Offlinenemesis
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Re: Authors of Holy Books [Re: gnrm23]
    #2372164 - 02/23/04 03:36 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No mis-spelling, intentional.


Interesting, could you link some references to that bluemeanie.
In Islam we do not base any belief on the Old Testament it has fallen to curroption by the lost sheep of Israel.
It is interesting to note that the original scripts of any book of the
Apocrypha and the Jewish scriptues do not exist but only in the Greek translation.

That is the reason Prophet Jesus(pbuh) came as said in Matthew 15:21-28.

While I do not know much of these original translations and whatnot and await your enlightening :smile: .. words can be used as plural as a construct of respect which exists in Hebrew and Arabic but they are usually very clear.


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May Peace and fellicity smile on those who seek it.


Edited by nemesis (02/26/04 01:16 AM)


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