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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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War and Politics
#23572496 - 08/24/16 10:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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War and Politics are seemingly inseparable. Indeed, war may very well simply be an extension of politics. I've heard that "there is nothing new under the sun" and that "the more things change, the more they stay the same", and it is in this spirit that this thread will examine the wars and political intrigues of history to see what, if any, insights can be gained into current wars and political intrigues.
I'll start.
Some people fear Russian expansion in Eastern Europe. I don't think there's anything much for Americans to worry about in that regard, because I don't think such expansion would play out to the benefit of Russia in the long term, and i think that the reasons are obvious enough that Putin and anyone else with any power in Russia must be able to see them as well. Therefore, Russia will not engage in any further designs on Eastern Europe in the near future. As evidence i cite every insurgency and the corresponding inability for traditional armies to come to grips with such foes for the last couple hundred years going back to the U.S. revolution.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23572607 - 08/24/16 11:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] 4
#23572658 - 08/24/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Russia is being crapped on because they refuse to bend over for the US! Unlike the EU Canada Australia who gave up there soverenity to the US in exchange for empty promises, Russia/China will not do that, the US would be ok w/ this except for the fact that the worlds resources are no longer looked at as endless, The logical way to view this would be to let capitalism set the market and he who is willing to pay more will get the resources offered. The US believes they are the ONLY one who should decide what its worth and get 1st dibbs, Russia/China wont agree to that logic and that causes friction. That is the sole reason they are a THREAT to NATIONAL SECURITY, not in a violence/war way the way the US describes it, its resources demand issue. Sadly the US wants everyone to think Russian economy is in the toilet and if that were true they wouldn't be a threat in any way, the truth is Russia has basically zero national debt, they have a negative balance but whats overlooked is the money the US owes them, and the money that was frozen when they were sanctioned as well as the 35 billion(17 billion actual money due now)Ukraine is in debted to them, If Russia collected that balance they would be in better financial shape than any country in the world. They are not living on credit like the EU/US. These are not really political issues because our elected officials are only mouthpieces for our corporate elite,to sell it to the public which now are Global corporate elite since these businesses are owned by multiple countries and listed as US companies aside from the shareholders (like citi bank owned by Saudi Arabia 60% of stock). Which country has 900 military bases throughout the world? hint its not Russia/China...Who is the real threat...These elites OWN the NSA control the CIA and NATO and they are used as weopens to control everyone that doesnt relent to there wishes,politicians worldwide are spied on for dirt to be used against them later, companies are spied on for financial gain, countries are spied on for resource inventory and Nato is used in criminal ways to take these resources usually under the false narrative of a countries leader who is not democratic, mistreats his citizens, this is elite code for "he wont give us what we want! 1st they try to bribe them (misleading loans-IMF worldbank yadda yadda yadda) then they use the dirt from NSA then finally if all else fails NATO... The politics isnt the issue, its the monsters (elite)that have decided who we vote for based on the dirt and bribes they control them with, so who is deciding the worlds fate, the richest .01% of US EU AUS CAN SA ISRAEL blah blah they own everything including the news you watch/read to sell the citizens the BS
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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ballsalsa
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I agree with many of your points, however, i don't agree with this conclusion:
Quote:
These are not really political issues because our elected officials are only mouthpieces for our corporate elite,to sell it to the public which now are Global corporate elite since these businesses are owned by multiple countries and listed as US companies aside from the shareholders (like citi bank owned by Saudi Arabia 60% of stock).
just because these things are largely controlled by the wealthy elite, doesn't mean that they are not political issues. Indeed, politics has historically been the arena of the wealthy elite, while the "unwashed masses" have almost always had very little say in such matters.
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23572960 - 08/24/16 02:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would agree with that view but I just see political issues are issues that have multiple sides and outcomes as well as input from the citizens but these issues are decided well in advance and there is no changing the plan, just slowing it or delaying it, but i guess there is more to a political side/view of it.
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DividedQuantum
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I agree that public opinion and policy usually diverge radically. However, there are numerous instances in which the government is forced to be democratic. But with what's going on behind the scenes, not at all.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: there are numerous instances in which the government is forced to be democratic.
The issues that Government is "democratic" about are only those that don't impact the pocketbooks of the big corporations/wealthy. You want gay rights? Sure, if the majority agree. You want stricter border controls? Sure, if the majority agree. You want to cut military spending by ending overseas wars? Ain't gonna happen.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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DividedQuantum
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That's a really good point.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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The Ecstatic
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: there are numerous instances in which the government is forced to be democratic.
The issues that Government is "democratic" about are only those that don't impact the pocketbooks of the big corporations/wealthy. You want gay rights? Sure, if the majority agree. You want stricter border controls? Sure, if the majority agree. You want to cut military spending by ending overseas wars? Ain't gonna happen.
Even the border issue has lots of money involved (border patrol, deportation/detention complex, organized crime smuggling, cheap ag labor, to name a few).
To add to what fal said, they usually give us the social causes. But even so, they fight us on that ever so subtly. A divided public is easier to control, and once everyone truly has equal rights and opportunity, theyll turn towards the REAL problems.
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ballsalsa
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So the following exchange happened here: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23598023 and I thought that it embodied perfectly the overlap between war and politics.
Quote:
Bigbadwooof said: I don't care if it is functional. Our government has way too much power, and it has become addicted (and they call me a 'kratom addict'! lmao!). People like Clinton go around the world murdering people. People like the DEA go around banning benign substances in order to satiate big-pharma's desire for market control. The NSA spies on its own people, etc etc. No knock-raids...
I think to fix our government we must first burn it down. When they are rigging elections, there is no recourse within the system.
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DividedQuantum said: You're right. Any suggestions for a strategy? They have all the best weapons; we are owned in multiple respects.
Quote:
ballsalsa said:
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: You're right. Any suggestions for a strategy? They have all the best weapons; we are owned in multiple respects.
excerpted from Sir Basil Hart's "Strategy, Second Revised Edition"
Quote:
Meantime, in the desert to the east and south, a curious campaign was not only helping weaken the fighting strength of Turkey, but shdding some new light on strategy-and, in particular, on the indirect approach. This campaign was the Arab Revolt, with Lawrence as its guiding brain. While it come into the catagory of guerilla warfare, which is by its very nature indirect, its strategy had such a scientifically calculated basis that we should not miss its reflection on normal warfare. Admittedly an extreme form of the indirec t approach, it was most economically effective within the limits of the instrument. The Arabs were both more mobile and less able to bear casualties than orthodox armies. The Turks were almost insusceptable to loss of men, but not to loss of material-of which they suffered a scarcity. Superb in sitting tight in a trench, firing at a directly oncoming target, they were neither adaptable to, nor able to endure the strain of, fluid operations. They were trying to hold down an vast area of country with a quantity of men which was not large enough to spread itself into a network of posts over the area. Also, they depended on a long and frail line of communications. From these premises was evolved a strategy which was the antithesis if orthodox doctrine. whereas normal armies seek to preserve contact, the Arabs sought to avoid it. Whereas normal armies seek to destroy the opposing forces, the Arabs sought purely to destroy material-and to seek it at points where there was no force. But Lawrence's strategy went further/ Instead of trying to drive the enemy away by cutting off their supplies, he aimed to keep them there, by allowing short rations to reach them, so that the longer they stayed the weaker and more depressed they became. Blows might induce them to concentrate, and simplify both their supply ans security problems. Pin-pricks kept them spread out. Yet for all its unconventionality this strategy merely carried to its logical conclusion that of following the line of least resistance. As its author has said: "The Arab army never tried to maintain or improve an advantage, but to move off and strike again somewhere else. It used the smallest force in the quickest time at the farthest place. To continue the action till the enemy had changed his dispositions to resist it, would have been to break the fundamental rule of denying him targets." What was this but the strategy evolved in 1918 on the Western Front? Fundamentally the same, but carried to a further degree. Its application to the problem of normal warfare is condidtioned by factors of time, space, and force. While it is a quickened and active form of blockade it is inherently slower to take effect that a strategy of dislocation. Hence, if national conditions make a quick issue imperative the latter approach is preferable. But unless the end is sought by an indirect approach, the "short-cut" is likely to prove slower, more costly, and more dangerous than the "Lawrence" strategy. Lack of room and density of force are also handicaps, if rarely insuperable. A reasoned verdict is that in normal warfare the choice should fall on the form of indirect approach which aims at a quick decision, by "trapping" the opponent-if there is a good prospect of its success. Otherwise, or after it has failed, the choice should fall on that form of indirect approach which aims at an eventual decision by sapping the opponent's strength and will. Anything is preferable to the direct approach.
Quote:
The ratio of space to forces is a key factor in guerrilla war. This was vividly expressed in Lawrence's mathematical calculation about the Arab Revolt- that to hold it in check, the Turks would "have need of a fortified post every four square miles, and a post could not be less than twenty men", so the requirement would be 600,000 men for the area they were trying to control, whereas they had only 100,000 available. "Our success was certain, to be proved by pencil and paper as soon as the proportion of space and number had been learned". Such a calculation, though oversimplified, embodies a general truth. The ratio of space to forces is a basic factor, but the product varies with the type of country and the relative mobility of the two sides, as well as their relative morales.
Quote:
"The concentrated essence of Strategy and Tactics" Positive: 1) Adjust your end to your means. In determining your object, clear sight and cool calculation should prevail. It is folly "to bite off more than you can chew" and the beginning of military wisdom is a sense of what is possible
2) Keep your object always in mind, while adapting your plan to circumstances. Realize that there are more ways than one of gaining an object, but take heed that every objective should bear on the object.
3) Choose the line (or course) of least expectation. Try to put yourself in the enemies' shoes.
4) Exploit the line of least resistance-so long as it can lead you to any objective which would contribute to your underlying object. 5) Take a line of operation which offers alternative objectives. For you will thus put your opponent on the horns of a dilemma, which goes far to assure the chance of gaining one objective at least-whichever he guards least-and may enable you to gain one after the other
6) Ensure that both plan and disposistions are flexible-adaptable to circumstances. Your polan should forsee and provide for a next step in case of success or failure, or partial success-which is the most common case i war.
Negative:
7) Do not throw your weight into a stroke whilst your opponent is on guard
8) Do not renew an attack along the same line (or in the same form) after it has once failed. A mere reinforcement of weight is not sufficient change, for it is probable that the enemy also will have strengthened himself in the interval.
Yeah, i just typed that shit out manually because i could find a good source to copy-paste from. so what?
questions? comments? complaints?
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perikleous
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Sad but I dont want to say anything negative about gay rights, however the gov didnt have a choice, it was only a matter of time before a homosexual or gay person that may have personal/financial issues stepped away from the "community" calling it a disability from birth and demanding gov help, wanting psychological counciling,for years of abuse as a school age child, wanting the financial benefits of a disability (down syndrome/autism) as a birth defect and saying they have not had opportunities that a straight person has including marraige/family-household tax benefits.. Orlando gay club shooter "needed counciling on his sexuality" blah blah, in the end the courts would have forced gov to pay, so legalizing all cleared the path and any chance of future costs, especially seeing the BOOM in recent comming outs since its been legalized...
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Tipote
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some great points on this thread, thanks
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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength
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Douglas Howard
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Tipote]
#23621123 - 09/07/16 08:14 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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CIA’s final report: No WMD found in Iraq http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7634313/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/cias-final-report-no-wmd-found-iraq/#.V9Adnk0rLIU
The Democratic presidential nominee is leading Republican rival Donald Trump by a ratio of 2-to-1 in campaign donations from employees working for defense giants like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/defense-industry-hillary-clinton-227336#ixzz4JZxFS1uH Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook
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truthfull
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The east vs west paradigm is a complete facade!
One glance and the interconnectedness of the global money policies is all one needs.
If there were true grievances and rivalries then Russia would expose the federal reserves lawless rape of the financial system but t seems the globalist leaders all play their role in the large facade.
Trace the lawless money and inflation practices and it's clear they are sleeping in the same bed
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truthfull
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Re: War and Politics [Re: truthfull]
#23621353 - 09/07/16 09:58 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Perkleous you get it!
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Crumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23622528 - 09/07/16 04:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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There have been hundreds of insurgencies that have failed. (the Basques, FARC, Chinese boxers to name a few) I'll grant that warfare favors moreso insurgents now than it did in the past, but just because you have home field advantage or hang out in the jungle doesn't make you invincible.
Taking your example of Russian expansion. Just because it might not work out for Russia in the long term doesn't mean the international community can sit idly by as Russia invades itty bitty Lithuania and starts shelling civilians or some other crap. I'd hope the rest of the word would write strongly worded letters, and then sanctions, and accommodate talks, and eventually, if the humanitarian situation was bad enough I would hope there would be an intervention
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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ballsalsa
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23622568 - 09/07/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Taking your example of Russian expansion. Just because it might not work out for Russia in the long term doesn't mean the international community can sit idly by as Russia invades itty bitty Lithuania and starts shelling civilians or some other crap. I'd hope the rest of the word would write strongly worded letters, and then sanctions, and accommodate talks, and eventually, if the humanitarian situation was bad enough I would hope there would be an intervention
and yet, if one were to believe that the greater good would be served by the weakening and eventual downfall of Russia and her removal from power in the region, then perhaps the most moral thing would be to allow or even prod Russia to "bite off more than it can chew" in eastern europe, despite any arising humanitarian crisis. (as admittedly distasteful as that sounds)
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Crumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23622610 - 09/07/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
ballsalsa said:and yet, if one were to believe that the greater good would be served by the weakening and eventual downfall of Russia and her removal from power in the region
I don't believe this.
Quote:
perhaps the most moral thing would be to allow or even prod Russia to "bite off more than it can chew" in eastern europe, despite any arising humanitarian crisis. (as admittedly distasteful as that sounds)
This would be a case of the ends not justifying the means, whatsoever.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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ballsalsa
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23622680 - 09/07/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said:
Quote:
ballsalsa said:and yet, if one were to believe that the greater good would be served by the weakening and eventual downfall of Russia and her removal from power in the region
I don't believe this.
Quote:
perhaps the most moral thing would be to allow or even prod Russia to "bite off more than it can chew" in eastern europe, despite any arising humanitarian crisis. (as admittedly distasteful as that sounds)
This would be a case of the ends not justifying the means, whatsoever.
i tend to agree with you
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Crumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23622721 - 09/07/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Whoops, I was ambiguous and now Im confused. Do you agree
We allow Nation Y to commit genocide if we think it might lead to Nation Y collapsing sooner than if we intervened, which we believe is good or We should intervene to prevent Nation Y from committing genocide
Im for option 2
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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ballsalsa
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23622768 - 09/07/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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i agree that it is probably best to prevent an assured atrocity if possible than to allow it in hopes of a hypothetical greater good. In general.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23622830 - 09/07/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Taking your example of Russian expansion. Just because it might not work out for Russia in the long term doesn't mean the international community can sit idly by as Russia invades itty bitty Lithuania and starts shelling civilians or some other crap. I'd hope the rest of the word would write strongly worded letters, and then sanctions, and accommodate talks, and eventually, if the humanitarian situation was bad enough I would hope there would be an intervention
More "hey everyone, let's all be scared of Russia because it might help a war hawk win the election!" The Democratic party ain't the party of Carter anymore, just like the Republican party ain't the party of Lincoln.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Crumist
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In that thread on Russia I feel I got driven to a more hawkish position than I actually have. Im not voting for Hillary primarily because she is a hawk. My issue with Trump's stance on NATO is he proposes taking protection money with no talk of withdrawing. I strongly doubt he will be any kind of dove in the S. China Sea either. Neither is Putin any kind of dove.
I'm not scared of Russia. Here in America I have 0.00001% risk of bodily harm because of Russia, or N. Korea, or Iran, or terrorists, or Mexicans.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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DividedQuantum
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23623040 - 09/07/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That's one one hundred thousandth of a percent, people.
Wakey wakey.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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ballsalsa
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23623058 - 09/07/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Politico-military facts of the world as we know it:
The U.S. enjoys absolute Naval superiority worldwide.
By extension, the U.S. enjoys absolute air superiority worldwide.
The U.S. will not allow Russia or China to threaten its monopoly on control of the world's oceans in the S. China Sea or anywhere else.
As long as their actions don't interfere with the previously mentioned monopoly, and all of the implied trade advantages etc. for the ruling elite of the west, Russia and China will be allowed to do as they please within their prescribed spheres of influence.
thats pretty much it. if Jinping decides to interfere with U.S. naval operations, it will not go well for China. By contrast, if China massacres all of its ethnic Uyghurs, the U.S. won't do shit. Same with Russia. If Putin decides to interfere with U.S. Naval operations in or around Syria, it will not go well for Russia. By contrast, if Putin decides to invade Lithuania, the U.S. won't do shit.
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23625641 - 09/08/16 12:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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You see a point? they are the same, TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN! If you vote Hitlery you get TTP TTIP War w/ Russia and or China, If you vote Trump you get stricter Police state, more spying, less freedom/rights and either way, no new jobs/Us corporations returning, but maybe less immigrants taking away your minimum wage job, wow thats a winner, I get to work at 7/11 instead of Al Amed, white Americans carrying back pack grass blowers for minimum wage instead of Chico, I get to be the janitor instead of Pablo but regardless no real work!!!Yet more police violence because thats the Republican way-Stop and Frisk is a good thing!!!!! Wake up voters they are both all the negatives and none of the positives for this country, two sides of the same coin, they are technically one in the same, would you rather suffer through less rights or die by nuclear war? you lose either way!!! I will vote Indepedent to make the statement that they both suck regardless!
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perikleous
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you will never see the people unite/agree because they are being divided by this same Gov policy! BLM and all this crap is created to keep us divided, The .01% know a movement of the people is the biggest threat! They know by making you think the police/gov issue is a Black/white issue its ok, WE know its a rich/poor issue the have yachts and have nots! There is no hiding the fact that the police violence isnt a black/minority issue, its a poor-low wage working class issue, and when they are eliminated the police will be sent to attack the next class of people and so on, no one is safe but the .01% and possibly the 1% for a while! Working class minorities have much more in common with working class white people than working class people of any type have in common with the wealthy! You will see and spend more time around Jamal and Pablo at work then you will ever spend with the Donald Trumps/Bill Gates of society, do You think they have a clue about what your day to day struggles are? Pablo and Jamal do!!!
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Crumist
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I don't agree BLM is a .01% plot to divide us. BLM is a child of Occupy Wall Street and there is nothing preventing you from supporting their cause. Labor and racial causes are intertwined since the creation of the proletariat. Have an issue with their tactics? Sorry, but Ghandi and MLK and Chavez didn't get anything done by following the rules of the powers that be
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23626527 - 09/08/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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racial and labor issues have been intertwined ever since it was discovered that people within the same wealth class could be set against each other based on race. Social justice issues are absolutely a distraction from the underlying class division issues which are in turn the root cause of most social justice issues.
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Crumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23626551 - 09/08/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Social justice issues are class issues are social justice issues. We can sit here and argue about how each other's goals are derivative or we can unite against a common foe and actually get those bastards.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist] 1
#23627578 - 09/08/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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indeed. However, racism is really, really, really, a thing still, and it seems impossible to get the hillbilly poor onto their own team (class-wise). Personally, i think that the racism will sort itself out if we can just get everyone on board with the class warfare thing.
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23627628 - 09/08/16 11:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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YOUR back and forth with each other is exactly what I am saying! We are debating whether its race or class and they are laughing, all the way to the bank! Im not saying BLM is a creation of the 1%, Im saying by stressing the black/white issue we are all losing, at some point the enemy of my enemy is my friend! all the working class (HAVE NOTS)being minority or majority have to get on the same page to fix this and stop the HAVE YACHTS from keeping any/all of us down. Yes I agree the BLM movement is a reality because the police violence is clearly disproportionate when you consider the black population is 13% yet they are shot by cops like 3x more often, however,if you take the middle and upper class whites/minorities out of the equasion and the neighborhoods they live in and compare the rest you will see a completely different figure, the amount of whites that get raided/swatted/shot is huge but nobody is talking about it when that happens, a quick headline and over, when/if they reach the point its BROKE LIVES MATTER (lowest income families) meaning BLM we will get somewhere and until then we are divided!
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


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Ooh-kRry-ina (Ukraine)
New frontline for the new Cold War?
I certianly think so. Both sides have bolsted their forces on the NATO/Russian border.
I think it's pretty sad that such a beautiful country is gonna get face fucked, even more than it already is, in the coming years. Russia fucked up big time by annexing Ukraine and trying to control their politics. The US fucked up big time by expanding into Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and ex Yugoslavia.
The poor Ukrainians are caught in the middle.
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23639117 - 09/12/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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we snatched some former soviet states into our sphere of influence, and now Putin wants them back. if he insists, we'll let him have them and the inevitable multiple decade insurgencies that will come along with them.
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23639131 - 09/12/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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It is viewed as aggresive expansion. Crimea is viewed as aggressive expansion by Americans 
The former soviet states hopped out of one abusive relationship right into another, they will realize it with time.
Russia's justifications are true. The areas are largely Russian speaking, and view Moscow as their capital rather than kyiv
The problem is Russia signed a treaty promising not to do what they did, in exchange for all of Ukraine's nukes.
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ballsalsa
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23639160 - 09/12/16 05:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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why did everyone think that they wanted those nukes back?
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elax420
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23639193 - 09/12/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't get the question? Ukraine had like all the best ports of the USSR and some major military bases too (the one the Russians took in Crimea)
When the USSR disolved part of the agreement between Russia and Ukraine was to switch the nukes since the nukes were Russian and obviously the most important tool in international diplomacy.
Russia agreed to respect their territorial integrity in exchange.
Russians dominated ukrianian politics until euromaidan. The Ukrainians say Russian invaded because of that. Russia says popular referendum/insurgents not linked to Moscow. Obviously the truth lies in the middle.
USA got involved because we always get involved in literally everything.
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ballsalsa
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23639330 - 09/12/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said: part of the agreement between Russia and Ukraine was to switch the nukes since the nukes were Russian and obviously the most important tool in international diplomacy.
Russia agreed to respect their territorial integrity in exchange.
Russians dominated ukrianian politics until euromaidan.
Russia was able to renege on the deal and annex territory precisely because they got the nukes back. They got the nukes back in order to facilitate this very action should it become necessary because of some political shift in ukraine.
--------------------
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elax420
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23639432 - 09/12/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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dude Ukraine is the size of Texas. Russia spans 11 time zones. Ukraine was forced to give back the nukes for 2 reasons
1) Russia would and still can very easily skull fuck them 2) they weren't Ukrainian to begin with, refusing to turn them over would almost certainly be an act of war. 3) Russia and Ukraine had great relations until the orange revolution (2005)
Plus they have considerable cultural, linguistic, and historical ties. It's not like France giving Germany their weapons.
Theres more to it then that too.
In the 50s Russian SSR gave the Ukrainian SSR Crimea in exchange for some eastern regions. It didn't matter back then because it was the same federal unit. It would be like Florida giving the panhandle to Bama.
But Crimea is of massive strategic importance, especially with the murricans breathing down Russia's neck, so they took it back. I have a Ukrainian friend from Donetsk and one from Crimea and neither speak ukrianian but rather russian.
I also have another buddy from Donetsk who is hardcore nationalistic about Ukraine. It's really not as simple as 1 and 0
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demiu5
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] 1
#23641169 - 09/13/16 10:31 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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this whole thread
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


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Re: War and Politics [Re: demiu5] 2
#23641377 - 09/13/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I missed it earlier so
"We can't sit around while Russia shells Lithuania"
The world sat around while USA shelled Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Serbia, Vietnam, and finally Korea
1) 25% of Lithuanians are Russian speakers and citizens. 2) Russia wouldn't have to shell shit, Lithuania is like the size of Maryland maybe... 3) it is overwhelmingly clear the Americans are the aggressors in Europe and the world. If not why did they not disband but rather expand NATO (who's stated mission was to oppose the soviet bloc) into former soviet states. 4)NATO listed Russia not Isis as the biggest threat to global security (maybe this has something to do with america sponsoring Isis and "Islamic extremism" around the globe) it's just their new contras. Remember when the tried to act like Chechnya should en independent, then Chechens bombed Boston?)
USA can't even win conventional wars, and always represent the most oppressive regimes on thebplanet. It would be the end of the world no doubt but Russia can hold its own and some against us. The last foreign conquest of Russia was made by genghis khan.
This isn't saying Russia isn't a bully but god damn America is the biggest and most ineffective bully on the planet. I love it when they get a taste of their own medicine. US foreign policy is a joke and downright deplorable.
Clinton (bubba) named a Rwandan rebel leader to a humanitarian prize, after ignoring a genocide that resulted in 2 million dead. Our great ally Saudi Arabia was named chief of the human rights comittee in the UN. This is a country that executes (publicly of course) apostates, homosexuals, blasphemers, and dissidents. Oh and they are using banned (American and British made) cluster bombs on civilian areas in Yemen, right now.
When you hear people say America is the largest exporter of conflict and terrorism, they aren't exactly wrong
LOLZ
Edited by elax420 (09/13/16 12:10 PM)
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420] 1
#23641544 - 09/13/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Russia didnt take Crimea, they were renting it and had there military base there forever! When the US EU coup happened, Russia was in the process of washing 11 billion of the Ukraine Debt by a new lease agreement for 10yrs. Sadly a big part of the coup was to take posession of the Black sea base (Crimea)forcing Russia to leave Ukraine.. Putin not being the pushover that the US hoped he was, offered Crimeans a chance to join Russia by voting on the land they live/work/own, they were smart enough to vote to join Russia! As for the rebel held areas, russia has no interest in them, they are only involved to protect the families of Russian citizens who live there! Ukraine(West) figured they coud get out of there 33 billion debt with Russia by aligning with EU/US and Nato, basically cuting a deal with the devil forever(aligning with LUCIFER) to avoid a short term debt to a country that has supported them forever! The deal with the EU/US would have cost Ukraine 180 Billion for 17 Billion now!!! Russia not being stupid offered a better deal, 10 yr lease on base and a increase in your fuel costs to REPAY the balance since the fuel Ukraine was getting from Russia was not getting paid for! The Former elected president of Ukraine realised the deal w/ Russia was better than what EU/US offered and agreed, so the EU/US panicked due to money invested trying to woo Ukraine in, so they caused a fake civil war (coup) something they have done in the middle east/Libya and elsewhere when they dont get there way! This was all done because Russia blocked the US attempt to invade Syria and also granted Snowden Asylum. They the US/EU were attempting to isolate Russia and stop fuel sales to Ukraine/EU and it backfired, Ukraine is a 3rd world country w/o Russia business and the US/EU ran like Usain Bolt when they realised there was no profits coming there way!!! If you think Im wrong, do the real research and you will see differently!
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23641581 - 09/13/16 01:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sadly NATO and NSA are tools of CIA who do not answer to the whitehouse, they answer to the shadow GOV that runs the US, you know the names, they are involved with every president since Reagan was elected, they are not elected they are civilian yet regardless of party in W.H. they are involved, They are the money that owns GLOBAL CORPORATIONS that dictate policy, the head of it is Cheney Bush former VP from Haliburton he was elected and 9/11 happended and if you watch him in his office, video live feed, he is watching the planes hit towers and he is GRINNING is scary this sick F-CK was in power! The Elected officials are the face on the package, they have no power! Its like getting a bad burger at McDonalds and blaming Ronald McDonald for it! You do not decide who is the president, the shadow Gov does, Like walking in a shoe store and seeing a hundred sneakers to choose from, your wife picks 2 or 3 sneakers and asks which do you want? Did you choose, because she gave you the options she was ok with... SHE CHOSE YOUR SHOES! Our elections are run the same way!
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
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Dude they took Crimea. This is unquestionable
Откуда вы?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642021 - 09/13/16 03:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That depends on what you mean by "took".
If you mean they accepted the Crimean people's referendum to rejoin Russia, then I guess you're correct.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642035 - 09/13/16 04:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if the entire state of texas voted and 97% said they choose to be part of Mexico AGAIN would Mexico be wrong for honoring there elected decision? The US took Texas and an election by the people would /should decide there decisions! Crimea is no different accept the fact that Crimea was a part of Russia for a very long time, and it was granted when the Russians who wanted out (after stealing everything when Soviet union collapsed) chose to create Ukraine( to avoid paying for there theft), they were given that land, yet leased it to Russia until the US/EU wanted to isolate Russia by evicting them from the base, which meant Nato would occupy that base as they do in 170 countries throughout the world! which would have been a direct threat to Russian sovereinty. If Russia cut a deal in Mexico to build a military base bordering Texas, what would the US do? Oh we know that answer because the deal Russia made to weopenize Cuba freaked the US out... Accept Crimea/Ukraine are nowhere near US and US has no business being involved with Ukraine policy so why get involved unless you have criminal intentions? They were attempting to cut Russia out from the EU trade deals/oil and put a threat on Russian borders, not even taking into account that the GMO takeover that would have occured would have poisoned all Russian land for organic farming and the seas would have been stripped of all resources/poisoned aside from the military threat. Im not touching the subject of GMO foods from there exported to Russia or the fact that Russias oil by contract goes through Ukraine, would have been stopped, all this is a direct threat to Russian national security, so I ask how can you blame them for offering Ukrainians a way to save themselves? Russia had no issues with Ukraine paying on there debt and joining EU as long as Nato was out and the GMO farming was out, but US/EU deal was contingent on Crimea/ GMOs so who was wrong here? The US went one step further by trying to convince Greece to sign a deal to run a pipeline from Qatar through syria to turkey into Greece for the EU, to bypass the Russian deal which was being screwed through Ukraine to EU and the Southstream pipeline that was supposed to bypass Ukraine was halted because US sanctions. The US was prepared 4 years ago to split up syria into sections so Qatar could run its pipeline through Syria, this is clearly the main US objective, fuck Ukraine and Syria for financial gain and isolate Russia at the same time, well how did that work out so far? Russia is the demon because they won't let the US Fu_k them anymore without foreplay first! The US even forced Turkey to take out a Russian jet, why, to ruin a deal that would enable Russian fuel through Turkey into EU... When the Soviet Union disolved, the US pushed the replacement into office BORIS YELTSIN a drunk who would sell his mother for a shot! The US bled Russia through sleazy deals and watched the people who ran Gov owned companies take everything as S.U. fell,then allowed these thieves to get US citizenship and remember to bring the stolen loot to the US, granting them asylum...In the process bankrupting Russia and turning there people to poverty, Russia never forgot that, and to watch the US flip out because a US citizen took asylum in Russia for helping the people of the US(Snowden), Russia is the bad guy!!! Maybe it was Russia stopping the US invasion of Syria by vetoing the Chemical weopens BS.... hypocracy at its worst!!!
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Crumist
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Maybe we can keep the commies and the Mexicans out with that wall ^^
The western parts of Ukraine suffered mightily at the hands of the USSR, and the western part of the country is nearly as strongly anti-Russia as the East is pro-Russia. I refuse to believe the argument that the Maidan revolution was entirely a Western/NATO plot but Russia was within its right to foster the violent crackdown then session of E. Ukraine. Ukraine shouldn't be Russia or United States "turf." They deserve to figure their shit out without foreign shenanigans.
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23642139 - 09/13/16 04:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: The western parts of Ukraine suffered mightily at the hands of the USSR
And they're suffering even more since they broke ties with Russia. 
Quote:
Crumist said: Ukraine shouldn't be Russia or United States "turf." They deserve to figure their shit out without foreign shenanigans.
I think we'll both agree with that. Crimea figured out what it wanted to do...
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


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Falcon eastern Ukraine suffered heavily at the hands of western Ukraine.
This is the problem with American foreign policy. We always think we can swoop in to save the day without knowing anything about the countries we "liberate"
accepting a disputed "referendum" that broke several treaties they had in place to respect the terroritorial integrity of Ukraine.
Why hasn't Russia accepted transdnistria, Abkhazia, or South Ossetia?
All have had similar "refferendums"
Periklous: have you ever been to Russia or Ukraine?
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Crumist
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Sorry, but you can't compare the contemporary Ukrainian situation with ethnic cleansing and genocide carried out by the USSR. 1932 was the collectivization famines, but Ukraine got shit on during its entire membership in the USSR. During the revolutionary period, during WW2, during the 2, 5, and 10 year plans. Many millions of deaths caused by malice rather than oversight our weather.
@Elax, do you have east and west switched?
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642267 - 09/13/16 05:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I promise you America would go to war over their lost land and be seriously aggrieved even if the vote was 97% (which is obviously a fraudulent result)
I really think you guys don't understand the level of corruption in Eastern Europe. Its pretty normal to just dissappear in this part of the world for expressing unpopular opinions.
Maidan was Ukraine's young rising up and saying fuck oligarchy, and if you can't respect that and would rather the continuation of endless oligarchy and corruption I don't even know what to say to you.
At the same time I totally understand why Russia feels threatens by the United states
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23642282 - 09/13/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Sorry, but you can't compare the contemporary Ukrainian situation with ethnic cleansing and genocide carried out by the USSR. 1932 was the collectivization famines, but Ukraine got shit on during its entire membership in the USSR. During the revolutionary period, during WW2, during the 2, 5, and 10 year plans. Many millions of deaths caused by malice rather than oversight our weather.
@Elax, do you have east and west switched?
Western Ukraine is full of neo Nazis (that participated in the holocaust back in W2 since you like bringing up shit that happened nearly 100 years ago and part of Poland for much of history and still has very strong links with the poles) and eastern Ukraine is full of Russian criminals.
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: demiu5] 1
#23642289 - 09/13/16 05:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Lets not overlook the FACT that all oil producing countries get 40-60% upfront on all contracts and the balance paid over the term of contract so if you buy a million in oil/fuel you pay 400-600K upfront then as its delivered you pay on the balance. This is policy worldwide, yet Russia GAVE there oil to Ukraine on 100% credit, nothing down, partly due to the pipeline that fed EU and partly due to the relations between the nations, Ukraine is indebted to Russia to the tune of 33 BILLION when the WAR started... The oil that was cut off due to non payment by Ukraine was being stolen for months from european exports through the pipelines for Ukraine to avoid being fueless... When Russia exposed this the EU said we will cover the losses, because they were in the process of adding the Ukraine to there little gang! Why should Russia incur the losses when Ukraine barrowed with nothing down? Russia offered 11 billion in debt cut for the base in Crimea for 10 yr lease and asked that a small increase in oil prices to pay down the balance owed (interest free) but the EU/US intervened and told Ukraine to reject it! WHAT ABOUT THE 33 BILLION DEBT, Are they supposed to cut there losses because US asked them to? If the US/EU want Ukraine, they should 1st pay off there debts (33 Billion) Russia alone! Same as you buying a business, you buy there debt as well! The US doesnt want the negatives, just the positives...
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist] 1
#23642303 - 09/13/16 05:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your seriously going to use what the soviet union did when Russia is now free of that regime, That would be like holding the US gov now accountable for what columbus did to native american tribes!
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642331 - 09/13/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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The young didnt rise up, they were lured in via internet by US/EU recruiters to stand up against the GOV, and heres money and weopons if need be, start a war and we can fix it all... They were sold the same dream Muslims in the middle east were sold to shred Syria, Libya, afghanistan and Iraq... You need to start reading more than your MSM to get a better perspective, dont believe everthing your told or you will be one who thinks Kennedy assasination was accurate, 9/11 is all accurate and MLK/moon landing were accurate... read the real media that has no reason to be biased and you will learn that you are being sold a bunch of BS to take away the few freedoms (constitution/bill of rights)the country was founded on. They are disappearing daily to invade your privacy for profit, why would they do that here in US only? They are attacking freedoms for profits throughout the world!
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642364 - 09/13/16 05:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I expect other countries in the east to be corrupt and fu_k there people, no privacy/freedom, any freedom they get they get due to US citizen motivating it. However the US is supposed to be the beacon of democracy, they are held to a different standard not because of what once was, but because they have preached this to the world and when a country refused to listen, they intervened, they said this is the way to live and treat your citizens, so they are EXPECTED TO DO THE RIGHT THING! the east "not so much" but now looking at the systems in place I would say the east has more freedom and is more accepting of democracy than the US
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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Peri:
So we've established you don't speak Russian, you haven't been to either country,
So... Do you even know a Ukrainian?
You are sounding like a great Kremlin puppet right now! The 100 posts don't help your case.
Btw formatting helps readibility a lot. Use paragraphs.
Also I'm pretty much playing devils advocate for both sides. I love Russia and Russians, but Ukrainian women are top notch and I hope to go to Kyiv soon. Russian government is fucked, it's an autocracy with very little freedom of speech and I think this point is lost on you, assuming you are a real person and not just a propagandist.
Remember: The truth always lies in the middle.
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642373 - 09/13/16 05:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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What's your opinion about cold drinks my friend? Personally I love martinis with shaved ice
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642409 - 09/13/16 05:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I am of Russian decent on both sides and do have several Russian friends as well as Ukrainian friends. I have an issue with the MSM feeding the story they want told, I have spent many hours reading learning and the conclusion is logical, as bad as Russia has been through the years, they were screwed through the 90s and the changes they have made from the new mellinium till now is remarkable. Not perfect but there policy is based on old school American values and those values need to be practiced by US politicians today! The US wiil be the SOviet Union in a very short amount of time if changes are not made. I do not mean owned by Gov I mean the GOV will and is owned by the corporations dictating policy and these companies have well established roots in europe canada Aus NZ Israel and Japan so wake up or be eliminated by the powers that be!
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Crumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23642441 - 09/13/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cold drinks are wonderful. Lately, I've moved on from whiskey and have been trying out a bunch of (cheap-o) vodkas neat.
And santa Maria! I've heard enough about the "lamestream media." I for one watch al-Jazeera, BBC, RT, PBS (+ the Japanese, German, and various other syndicated international stations carried by my PBS channel, NPR, my local newpaper, Wall St Journal, the NYT, the Washington Post (but not vegetating on the stuff 24/7) and I'm sure there are plenty more out there that diversify their media consumption. Every media outlet has their glaring biases, but I refuse to believe there is some global conspiracy with control over them all. Stop bitching about the MSM and watch something else, or go outside for Gods sake!
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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Quote:
perikleous said: I am of Russian decent on both sides and do have several Russian friends as well as Ukrainian friends. I have an issue with the MSM feeding the story they want told, I have spent many hours reading learning and the conclusion is logical, as bad as Russia has been through the years, they were screwed through the 90s and the changes they have made from the new mellinium till now is remarkable. Not perfect but there policy is based on old school American values and those values need to be practiced by US politicians today! The US wiil be the SOviet Union in a very short amount of time if changes are not made. I do not mean owned by Gov I mean the GOV will and is owned by the corporations dictating policy and these companies have well established roots in europe canada Aus NZ Israel and Japan so wake up or be eliminated by the powers that be!
Don't be a Kremlin stoolie.
Like I said the truth lies in the middle.
What I'm saying isn't "MSM."
it's fucking academics. You are just speaking like a Russian puppet, instead of a puppet of Washington.
Russia needs friends in the west, not stoolies that believe all the bullshit they say. Same goes for Ukraine.
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23642781 - 09/13/16 07:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Cold drinks are wonderful. Lately, I've moved on from whiskey and have been trying out a bunch of (cheap-o) vodkas neat.
And santa Maria! I've heard enough about the "lamestream media." I for one watch al-Jazeera, BBC, RT, PBS (+ the Japanese, German, and various other syndicated international stations carried by my PBS channel, NPR, my local newpaper, Wall St Journal, the NYT, the Washington Post (but not vegetating on the stuff 24/7) and I'm sure there are plenty more out there that diversify their media consumption. Every media outlet has their glaring biases, but I refuse to believe there is some global conspiracy with control over them all. Stop bitching about the MSM and watch something else, or go outside for Gods sake!
Right there with ya buddy. Except I drink cheap vodka. The cold drinks thing is to tell if he's a propagandist or just a stoolie. Easterners don't fuck with ice in their drinks.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23643219 - 09/13/16 10:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said: Falcon eastern Ukraine suffered heavily at the hands of western Ukraine.
This is the problem with American foreign policy. We always think we can swoop in to save the day without knowing anything about the countries we "liberate"
I agree!
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elax420 said: accepting a disputed "referendum" that broke several treaties they had in place to respect the terroritorial integrity of Ukraine.
The Crimean government announced the Declaration of Independence of the Republic of Crimea and then voted to rejoin Russia. If you think a territory doesn't have that right, then maybe you think the US should be a colony of England.?
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elax420 said: Why hasn't Russia accepted transdnistria, Abkhazia, or South Ossetia?
All have had similar "refferendums"
I don't know... why?
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elax420 said: I promise you America would go to war over their lost land and be seriously aggrieved even if the vote was 97% (which is obviously a fraudulent result)
I agree. We've done it before, and it resulted in the bloodiest war in American history. The North and South still can't agree on much; we should have let them go.
Also, please tell us what the actual referendum voting results were, as you seem to know it wasn't 96.7%.
Quote:
elax420 said: What's your opinion about cold drinks my friend? Personally I love martinis with shaved ice
Cold - craft beer. Room temp - aged rum.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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It's widely recognized as a fraudulent election and no outside observers were allowed in. Political dissidents disappear in this region (I don't know how this point still isn't sticking). Go look up Boris Yeltsins election. The communist party won and what would become UNited Russia flubbed the vote to get their boy in office
Oh and the Russian military had already taken the land. http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2107565,00.html
Regardless, Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?
I think I'm going to take my bow out of this thread.
This conversation is circular
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23643377 - 09/13/16 11:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said: Regardless, Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?
Historically, yes. treaties are great for as long as they are still beneficial to all parties, but that is about all they are good for. they are made to be broken.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23643411 - 09/13/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said: It's widely recognized as a fraudulent election and no outside observers were allowed in.
People argue whether Crimea had the right to hold the election, but the results are consistent with public opinion.
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elax420 said: Go look up Boris Yeltsins election. The communist party won and what would become UNited Russia flubbed the vote to get their boy in office
I looked it up, and the communist party lost. 
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elax420 said: Oh and the Russian military had already taken the land.
They had the land since 1783 when they put a base in Sevastopol.
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elax420 said: Regardless, Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?
No we won't ignore this. Crimea declared its independence from Ukraine.
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elax420 said: I think I'm going to take my bow out of this thread.
This conversation is circular
No, it's not circular; you're dodging the questions:
Does a territory have a right to claim independence? Why didn't Russia recognize the referendums of the three territories you mentioned? What are the 'real' referendum results?
Plus all the new points I just brought up in this thread countering your claims.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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perikleous
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Russia didnt want Crimean territory either, however if they didn't accept it, that land would be a NATO base now! As for treaties, didnt US agree to not have NATO forces located East, to not incringe on Russian Sovreignty, yet they have Russia encircled, Why? Is't there an agreement between the two countries since the break up of S.U. yet US doesn't care.
As far as him calling me a stoolie for Russia, it makes no sense, like me calling him a stoolie for US, The problems are obvious, anytime the US gets involved in a countries sovereignty and things don't go US way, there happens to be a civil war... If they stayed out of everyones business and let them run it there way, it would be fine!
Russia sadly has no choice but to spy and stop any gov threats because there are US influences all around with every intention of overthrowing Putin and disrupting there gov.
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Douglas Howard
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
elax420 said: It's widely recognized as a fraudulent election and no outside observers were allowed in.
People argue whether Crimea had the right to hold the election, but the results are consistent with public opinion.
Quote:
elax420 said: Go look up Boris Yeltsins election. The communist party won and what would become UNited Russia flubbed the vote to get their boy in office
I looked it up, and the communist party lost. 
Quote:
elax420 said: Oh and the Russian military had already taken the land.
They had the land since 1783 when they put a base in Sevastopol.
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elax420 said: Regardless, Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?
No we won't ignore this. Crimea declared its independence from Ukraine.
Quote:
elax420 said: I think I'm going to take my bow out of this thread.
This conversation is circular
No, it's not circular; you're dodging the questions:
Does a territory have a right to claim independence? Why didn't Russia recognize the referendums of the three territories you mentioned? What are the 'real' referendum results?
Plus all the new points I just brought up in this thread countering your claims. 
1.Does a terroritory have a right to claim independence? I'm not a lawyer neither are you, even if you were I garuantee you wouldn't be familiar with the Ukrainian or Russian constitutions. And neither am I. =pointless question
My opinion, of course they want to be apart of Russia, the Soviet Union was fucking awesome for a lot of the former cccp. And nostalgia is a hell of a phenomenon. It was however pretty shitty for the capitals of most of the soviet republics (Kiev, Moscow, Baku, etc) . There is a lot to be said for having pride in oneself. Just look at this Kremlin propagandist, everything Russia does (and the party line they push, as evidenced by the aforementioned) is meant to project external power.
However the short answer is: Neither the UN nor OSCE accept the results of the referendum so nuff said. If you asked 100 straight men if they want to fuck the beatiful and elegant proverbial Tatyana, not even 98 would say yes I bet more than 2-3% of humans disagree about the sun being the center of the solar system and the theory of gravity. Obviously that's a bullshit "vote"
2.Well since I'm not Vladimir Putin, my opinion is just conjecture. I Imagine it has something to do with the fact Russia has like a grand total of 4 warm water ports and the base in Crimea is the home of the Russian fleet. Russia is largely landlocked (who knows maybe global warming will be good for them).
As for the other disputed regions: Abkhazia is useless for anything outside of a vacation or marijuana, and is Muslim majority region that they already control for all intents and purposes. Trandniestria doesn't have a border with Russia is tiny and essentially useless, South Ossetia, the conflict almost started a war with NATO, and they same situation with Abkhazia applies minus the Muslims and tourism. I've been to the border of both these places. You can get shot rather easily by the occupying Russian troops.
Cultur/mentality: You gotta realize a lot of Russian want the ussr back, and view the 90s/fall of ussr as not a defeat to the west, and an inferiority of their system to capitalism (how westerners view it) but an implosion brought on by traitors (gorby/yeltsin). It's a time of great shame to many in all of Eastern Europe. They want to regain their pride and they feel the west has treated them unfairly and with undue arrogance (I can agree with these sentiments).
But Russia is and always has been a plutocracy. Ukraine decided they have had enough of that criminal bullshit and wanted to follow the model of Georgia and move towards democratization. For discussion let's say that Crimea was totally justified and no one is angered by the actions in the peninsula. Why is Russia occupying Donetsk and lugansk? How is that in any perception of justice, just?
3. One accepted by organizations who's sole mission is to promote peace in the region and/or the world (UN, OSCE) http://www.osce.org/cio/116313 http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47443#.V9ohzjROKnM
But okay dude who neither speaks Russian/Ukrainian, and who has likely never even been outside of the US's sphere of influence, and has only become aware of the issue at hand within the previous 72 hours, I'm sure you know more than the UN, and all this really is as simple as 1 or 0
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23646295 - 09/15/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said: There is a lot to be said for having pride in oneself. Just look at this Kremlin propagandist, everything Russia does (and the party line they push, as evidenced by the aforementioned) is meant to project external power.
I don't think it's to project external power. I think Russia accepted the Crimean vote to rejoin Russia in order to prevent its only warm water base in Sevastopol from being turned over to NATO.
Quote:
elax420 said: My opinion, of course they want to be apart of Russia, the Soviet Union was fucking awesome for a lot of the former cccp. And nostalgia is a hell of a phenomenon. However the short answer is: Neither the UN nor OSCE accept the results of the referendum so nuff said. If you asked 100 straight men if they want to fuck the beatiful and elegant proverbial Tatyana, not even 98 would say yes I bet more than 2-3% of humans disagree about the sun being the center of the solar system and the theory of gravity. Obviously that's a bullshit "vote"
Of course voting about scientific fact is bullshit. However, voting for what you want from your Government is democracy. And you just said you agree the Crimean people want to rejoin Russia.
Quote:
elax420 said: 2.Well since I'm not Vladimir Putin, my opinion is just conjecture. I Imagine it has something to do with the fact Russia has like a grand total of 4 warm water ports and the base in Crimea is the home of the Russian fleet. Russia is largely landlocked (who knows maybe global warming will be good for them).
I agree.
Quote:
elax420 said: Ukraine decided they have had enough of that criminal bullshit and wanted to follow the model of Georgia and move towards democratization. For discussion let's say that Crimea was totally justified and no one is angered by the actions in the peninsula. Why is Russia occupying Donetsk and lugansk? How is that in any perception of justice, just?
To protect the lives of the Russian speaking people who are being killed by Ukrainians. 
Quote:
elax420 said: But okay dude who neither speaks Russian/Ukrainian, and who has likely never even been outside of the US's sphere of influence, and has only become aware of the issue at hand within the previous 72 hours, I'm sure you know more than the UN, and all this really is as simple as 1 or 0

Wrong. I speak Russian and German, and I was just in Russia this summer (here's a very brief post on it). My closest friend lived in Russia their whole life until Perestroika. What's you connection to Russia?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
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Post deleted by elax420Reason for deletion: Way too much info.
If you wanna be a fucking idiot, be my guest
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23646515 - 09/15/16 03:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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interesting you mention nothing about how all relevant international organizations have sided with Ukraine on the matter.
Oh poor little victim Russia. The ruel CIA, NWO, globalist, reptilian, space devil ploy to undermine the great leader! Whatever are they going to do with the second most powerful army in the world and largest nuclear stockpile.....
If you can't respect the opinion of the OSCE, and especially that of the UN, there is nothing to talk about with you. You recognize no institutions with any legitimacy or authority, rather you come in with pretext of might =right and a healthy respect for autocracy. Further, you have little if anything to add to any actual "debate." This is why I originally bowed out, my ego however stupidly brought me back.
Whatever though dude, there are people that think slavery is morally justifiable. Can't save em all!
Edited by elax420 (09/15/16 09:20 AM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23647079 - 09/15/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
elax420 said: Post deleted by elax420
Reason for deletion: Way too much info. If you wanna be a fucking idiot, be my guest
Ignoring the argument and resorting to name calling doesn't exactly make ME the idiot... 
Quote:
elax420 said: interesting you mention nothing about how all relevant international organizations have sided with Ukraine on the matter.
If you can't respect the opinion of the OSCE, and especially that of the UN, there is nothing to talk about with you. You recognize no institutions with any legitimacy or authority
Did you know the resolution not to recognize the results of the referendum in Crimea never passed in the UN? The best the UN could do was hold a non binding vote, which has no force of law by their own rules.
Quote:
elax420 said: you come in with pretext of might =right and a healthy respect for autocracy.
No, I said I have a healthy respect for democracy and the will of a people to determine their fate. As noted by the Crimean referendum and the follow up Pew Research poll, an overwhelming number of Crimeans wanted to separate from Ukraine. But feel free to insist the Crimeans bow down to the will of the West...
Quote:
elax420 said: Further, you have little if anything to add to any actual "debate." This is why I originally bowed out, my ego however stupidly brought me back.
So you're not a big fan of facts? I tend to do a point by point rebuttal of everything I disagree with. Maybe you can enlighten me on which point(s) I've fallen short on facts and/or logic? Don't give a generic answer either...
Quote:
elax420 said: Oh poor little victim Russia. The ruel CIA, NWO, globalist, reptilian, space devil ploy to undermine the great leader! Whatever are they going to do with the second most powerful army in the world and largest nuclear stockpile.....
Whatever though dude, there are people that think slavery is morally justifiable. Can't save em all!
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420] 1
#23647376 - 09/15/16 12:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Simply put if Russia didn't have the weopens/military they have, Nato would have already stepped in and took Putin down!
They would have used the usual excuse, he tortures his citizens and refused to incorporate democracy wanting the USSR back, Blah blah blah
Those weopens/military keep them safe from corporate elite plundering them again...
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The Ecstatic
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True story. Same reason Iran and North Korea still exist in their current state.
Although, the more time goes on I start to think that North Korea is just the ugly girl we keep around to make us all look prettier.
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demiu5
humans, lol


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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Although, the more time goes on I start to think that North Korea is just the ugly girl we keep around to make us all look prettier.
or a whipping boy. why devote time/resources towards a country that would yield negligible gains and can't do much more than hurt their own citizens? especially when you have someone to shit on publicly and use as another tool for oppressing one's own citizens (USA)
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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elax420
Anal Destroyer


Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
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Re: War and Politics [Re: demiu5]
#23648036 - 09/15/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Russia just banned pornhub and youporn!
Lel
What a progressive country. Let's all model ourselves after the new Tsarist regime where playing Pokemon GO in church is an offense against the state punishable by jail time, and the two biggest porn sites are banned!
Go join your sexually and politically repressed comrades in the motherland falcon! I think you will be bitterly disappointed when you find out how bigoted the country is. Doesn't quite mesh with your kumbaya liberal bullshit.
Родина-мать зовёт! повеселись в Лубянке, блядь.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
#23648117 - 09/15/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I dont think anyone of sufficient intelligence thinks Russia espouses liberal beliefs, values, or employs modern left wing economic beliefs.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: I dont think anyone of sufficient intelligence thinks Russia espouses liberal beliefs, values, or employs modern left wing economic beliefs.
I know, I don't get elax's last post at all.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
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The media has been trying to sell us this "Putin wants to return to the glory days" red scare bullshit since Ukraine, I didnt know people were actually buying it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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"Crimea wants to rejoin Russia. Putin is such a bully!"
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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perikleous
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Russia cannot go pro full democracy not because they do not want to, the progressive moves made since the new mellinium show they want it!
They want what they saw in US up until the new mellinium!
They do not have that option because there are to many people connected to US policy that are conspiring to divide the country and do there what has been accomplished in Europe, a lapdog doing US bidding!
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Crumist
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Honestly though, territorial exchanges should be subject to some sort of international review, right? Hitler's Germany initially annexed regions that supported the move and the US annexed friendly Texas and less friendly California.
Its not as though the US doesn't have numerous critics in the UN or various international courts. China tut tuted Russia's actions in Ukraine too. Crimea joining the Russian federation should have been a slow, boring legal process, not a military occupation and referendum under gunpoint
-------------------- 'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704
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The Ecstatic
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23650083 - 09/16/16 10:16 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Annexing Texas wasnt all that friendly.
We went to war over it.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
#23650320 - 09/16/16 11:59 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Crumist said: Honestly though, territorial exchanges should be subject to some sort of international review, right?
If East Germany and West Germany WANT to reunite, why should they need permission from other countries?
Of course I might agree with you if one of the territories had no interest (such as Crimea being gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev without Crimea's consent).
Quote:
Crumist said: Crimea joining the Russian federation should have been a slow, boring legal process, not a military occupation and referendum under gunpoint
I think we both know if Crimea stayed with Ukraine, the US would never have allowed it to go back to Russia, regardless of what the Crimean people want.
It's funny that you choose to use the words "military occupation". If Russia hadn't accepted Crimea, there'd be the same level of violence there now as there's been in the rest of Eastern Ukraine. Roughly 10,000 people have been killed in Donbass, vs only 6 people in Crimea (source). Russian speaking people are being slaughtered in Donbass.
It's also funny that you say the referendum was "under gunpoint". I've already provided evidence that the election results were very much in line with public opinion, and there is no evidence to back your "under gunpoint" myth.
Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (09/16/16 01:34 PM)
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perikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist] 1
#23654688 - 09/18/16 01:49 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Had Crimea not been annexed, the Russian military base would have been converted to a NATO base by now!
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



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perhaps. either way, everyone should have known that russia couldn't allow that as a possibility.
--------------------
Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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perikleous
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What makes what Russia is doing(supporting Russian speaking peoples) in the east Ukraine, supporting rebels in a civil war (as being stated by US media), how is that wrong, when US is supporting opposition forces(rebels) in Syrian civil war (as US MSM is stating) and trying to partition/section/split up the country!
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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why does it have to be about right and wrong?
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perikleous
Stranger

Registered: 04/22/15
Posts: 277
Loc: EuroZone Victim
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23655877 - 09/18/16 02:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I will rephrase it. What makes it different from what the US is doing in Syria? Aside from the fact that what happens in Ukraine directly affects Russia due to proximity and relations where as US has No ties to Syria and its half way around the world as far as US citizens are concerned!
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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different specifically, or different in principle?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled



Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
#23658599 - 09/19/16 12:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Sir Basil Hart again: (he's my go-to theorist in case you couldn't tell already)
Quote:
While there are many causes for which a state goes to war, its fundamental object can be epitomized as that of ensuring the continuance of its policy--in face of the determination of the opposing state to pursue a contrary policy. In the human will lies the source and mainspring of conflict. For a state to gain its object in war it has to change this adverse will into compliance with its own policy. Once this is realized, the military principle of "destroying the main armed forces on the battlefield", which Clausewitz's disciples exalted to a paramount position, fits into its proper place along with the other instruments of grand strategy--which include the more oblique kinds of military action as well as economic pressure, propaganda, and diplomacy. Instead of giving excessive emphasis to one means, which circumstances may render ineffective, it is wiser to choose and combine whichever are the most suitable, most penetrative, and most conservative of effort--i.e. which will subdue the opposing will at the lowest war-cost and minimum injury to the post-war prospect. For the most decisive victory is of no value if a nation be bled white in gaining it. It should be the aim of grand strategy to discover and pierce the Achilles' heel of the opposing government's power to make war. And strategy, in turn, should seek to penetrate a joint in the harness of the opposing forces. To apply one's strength where the opponent is strong weakens oneself disproportionately to the effect attained. To strike with strong effect, one must strike at weakness. It is thus more potent, as well as more economical, to disarm the enemy rather than attempt his destruction by hard fighting. For the 'mauling' method entails not only a dangerous cost in exhaustion but the risk that chance may determine the issue. A strategist should think in terms of paralyzing, not of killing. Even on the lower plane of warfare, a man killed is merely one man less, whereas a man unnerved is a highly infectious carrier of fear, capable of spreading an endemic of panic. On a higher plane of warfare, the impression made on the mind of the opposing commander can nullify the whole fighting power that his troops posses. And on a still higher plane, psychological pressure on the government of a country may suffice to cancel all the resources at its command--so that the sword drops from a paralyzed hand. To repeat the keynote of the initial chapter: the analysis of war shows that while the nominal strength of a country is represented by its numbers and resources, this muscular development is dependent on the state of its internal organs and nerve-system--upon its stability of control, morale, and supply. Direct pressure always tends to harden and consolidate the resistance of an opponent--like snow which is squeezed into a snowball, the more compact it becomes, the slower it is to melt. Alike in policy and in strategy--or to put it another way, in the strategy of both the diplomatic and the military spheres--the indirect approach is the most effective way to upset the opponents balance, psychological and physical, thereby making possible his overthrow.
underlines are mine for emphasis.
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