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OfflineCrumist
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Registered: 11/02/13
Posts: 781
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23642441 - 09/13/16 06:03 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Cold drinks are wonderful. Lately, I've moved on from whiskey and have been trying
out a bunch of (cheap-o) vodkas neat.

And santa Maria! I've heard enough about the "lamestream media." I for one watch al-Jazeera,
BBC, RT, PBS (+ the Japanese, German, and various other syndicated international stations carried by my PBS channel,
NPR, my local newpaper, Wall St Journal, the NYT, the Washington Post (but not vegetating on the stuff 24/7)
and I'm sure there are plenty more out there that diversify their
media consumption. Every media outlet has their glaring biases, but I refuse to believe there
is some global conspiracy with control over them all. Stop bitching about the MSM and watch something else, or go outside for Gods sake!


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Invisibleelax420
Anal Destroyer
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Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous]
    #23642771 - 09/13/16 07:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

perikleous said:
I am of Russian decent on both sides and do have several Russian friends as well as Ukrainian friends. I have an issue with the MSM feeding the story they want told, I have spent many hours reading learning and the conclusion is logical, as bad as Russia has been through the years, they were screwed through the 90s and the changes they have made from the new mellinium till now is remarkable. Not perfect but there policy is based on old school American values and those values need to be practiced by US politicians today! The US wiil be the SOviet Union in a very short amount of time if changes are not made.
    I do not mean owned by Gov I mean the GOV will and is owned by the corporations dictating policy and these companies have well established roots in europe canada Aus NZ Israel and Japan so wake up or be eliminated by the powers that be!





Don't be a Kremlin stoolie.

Like I said the truth lies in the middle.


What I'm saying isn't "MSM."

it's fucking academics. You are just speaking like a Russian puppet, instead of a puppet of Washington.


Russia needs friends in the west, not stoolies that believe all the bullshit they say.
Same goes for Ukraine.


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Invisibleelax420
Anal Destroyer
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Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23642781 - 09/13/16 07:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Cold drinks are wonderful. Lately, I've moved on from whiskey and have been trying
out a bunch of (cheap-o) vodkas neat.

And santa Maria! I've heard enough about the "lamestream media." I for one watch al-Jazeera,
BBC, RT, PBS (+ the Japanese, German, and various other syndicated international stations carried by my PBS channel,
NPR, my local newpaper, Wall St Journal, the NYT, the Washington Post (but not vegetating on the stuff 24/7)
and I'm sure there are plenty more out there that diversify their
media consumption. Every media outlet has their glaring biases, but I refuse to believe there
is some global conspiracy with control over them all. Stop bitching about the MSM and watch something else, or go outside for Gods sake!





Right there with ya buddy. Except I drink cheap vodka. The cold drinks thing is to tell if he's a propagandist or just a stoolie. Easterners don't fuck with ice in their drinks.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23643219 - 09/13/16 10:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Falcon eastern Ukraine suffered heavily at the hands of western Ukraine.

This is the problem with American foreign policy. We always think we can swoop in to save the day without knowing anything about the countries we "liberate"



I agree!

Quote:

elax420 said:
accepting a disputed "referendum" that broke several treaties they had in place to respect the terroritorial integrity of Ukraine.



The Crimean government announced the Declaration of Independence of the Republic of Crimea and then voted to rejoin Russia.  If you think a territory doesn't have that right, then maybe you think the US should be a colony of England.?

Quote:

elax420 said:
Why hasn't Russia accepted transdnistria, Abkhazia, or South Ossetia?

All have had similar "refferendums"



I don't know... why?

Quote:

elax420 said:
I promise you America would go to war over their lost land and be seriously aggrieved even if the vote was 97% (which is obviously a fraudulent result)



I agree.  We've done it before, and it resulted in the bloodiest war in American history.  The North and South still can't agree on much; we should have let them go.

Also, please tell us what the actual referendum voting results were, as you seem to know it wasn't 96.7%.

Quote:

elax420 said:
What's your opinion about cold drinks my friend?
Personally I love martinis with shaved ice



Cold - craft beer.  Room temp - aged rum.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleelax420
Anal Destroyer
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Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
Re: War and Politics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23643297 - 09/13/16 10:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It's widely recognized as a fraudulent election and no outside observers were allowed in. Political dissidents disappear in this region (I don't know how this point still isn't sticking). Go look up Boris Yeltsins election. The communist party won and what would become UNited Russia flubbed the vote to get their boy in office


Oh and the Russian military had already taken the land.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2107565,00.html


Regardless,
Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?


I think I'm going to take my bow out of this thread.

This conversation is circular


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
Universally Loathed and Reviled
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Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 20,876
Loc: Foreign Lands
Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23643377 - 09/13/16 11:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Regardless,
Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?





Historically, yes.  treaties are great for as long as they are still beneficial to all parties, but that is about all they are good for. they are made to be broken.


--------------------


Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23643411 - 09/13/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
It's widely recognized as a fraudulent election and no outside observers were allowed in.



People argue whether Crimea had the right to hold the election, but the results are consistent with public opinion.

Quote:

elax420 said:
Go look up Boris Yeltsins election. The communist party won and what would become UNited Russia flubbed the vote to get their boy in office



I looked it up, and the communist party lost.  :shrug:

Quote:

elax420 said:
Oh and the Russian military had already taken the land.



They had the land since 1783 when they put a base in Sevastopol.

Quote:

elax420 said:
Regardless,
Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?



No we won't ignore this.  Crimea declared its independence from Ukraine.

Quote:

elax420 said:
I think I'm going to take my bow out of this thread.

This conversation is circular



No, it's not circular; you're dodging the questions:

Does a territory have a right to claim independence?
Why didn't Russia recognize the referendums of the three territories you mentioned?
What are the 'real' referendum results?

Plus all the new points I just brought up in this thread countering your claims.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineperikleous
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Registered: 04/22/15
Posts: 277
Loc: EuroZone Victim
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: War and Politics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23643552 - 09/14/16 12:30 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Russia didnt want Crimean territory either, however if they didn't accept it, that land would be a NATO base now!
      As for treaties, didnt US agree to not have NATO forces located East, to not incringe on Russian Sovreignty, yet they have Russia encircled, Why? Is't there an agreement between the two countries since the break up of S.U. yet US doesn't care.

    As far as him calling me a stoolie for Russia, it makes no sense, like me calling him a stoolie for US, The problems are obvious, anytime the US gets involved in a countries sovereignty and things don't go US way, there happens to be a civil war... If they stayed out of everyones business and let them run it there way, it would be fine!


Russia sadly has no choice but to spy and stop any gov threats because there are US influences all around with every intention of overthrowing Putin and disrupting there gov.


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Registered: 03/26/15
Posts: 1,678
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous]
    #23645272 - 09/14/16 05:07 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)



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Invisibleelax420
Anal Destroyer
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Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
Re: War and Politics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23646117 - 09/14/16 11:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

elax420 said:
It's widely recognized as a fraudulent election and no outside observers were allowed in.



People argue whether Crimea had the right to hold the election, but the results are consistent with public opinion.

Quote:

elax420 said:
Go look up Boris Yeltsins election. The communist party won and what would become UNited Russia flubbed the vote to get their boy in office



I looked it up, and the communist party lost.  :shrug:

Quote:

elax420 said:
Oh and the Russian military had already taken the land.



They had the land since 1783 when they put a base in Sevastopol.

Quote:

elax420 said:
Regardless,
Russia signed a treaty vowing to respect Ukrainian land. Are we just going to ignore this?



No we won't ignore this.  Crimea declared its independence from Ukraine.

Quote:

elax420 said:
I think I'm going to take my bow out of this thread.

This conversation is circular



No, it's not circular; you're dodging the questions:

Does a territory have a right to claim independence?
Why didn't Russia recognize the referendums of the three territories you mentioned?
What are the 'real' referendum results?

Plus all the new points I just brought up in this thread countering your claims.  :shrug:





1.Does a terroritory have a right to claim independence?
I'm not a lawyer neither are you, even if you were I garuantee you wouldn't be familiar with the Ukrainian or Russian constitutions. And neither am I.
=pointless question

My opinion, of course they want to be apart of Russia, the Soviet Union was fucking awesome for a lot of the former cccp. And nostalgia is a hell of a phenomenon. It was however pretty shitty for the capitals of most of the soviet republics (Kiev, Moscow, Baku, etc) . There is a lot to be said for having pride in oneself. Just look at this Kremlin propagandist, everything Russia does (and the party line they push, as evidenced by the aforementioned) is meant to project external power.

However the short answer is: Neither the UN nor OSCE accept the results of the referendum so nuff said. If you asked 100 straight men if they want to fuck the beatiful and elegant proverbial Tatyana, not even 98 would say yes :lol: I bet more than 2-3% of humans disagree about the sun being the center of the solar system and the theory of gravity. Obviously that's a bullshit "vote"

2.Well since I'm not Vladimir Putin, my opinion is just conjecture. I Imagine it has something to do with the fact Russia has like a grand total of 4 warm water ports and the base in Crimea is the home of the Russian fleet. Russia is largely landlocked (who knows maybe global warming will be good for them).


As for the other disputed regions:
Abkhazia is useless for anything outside of a vacation or marijuana, and is Muslim majority region that they already control for all intents and purposes. Trandniestria doesn't have a border with Russia is tiny and essentially useless, South Ossetia, the conflict almost started a war with NATO, and they same situation with Abkhazia applies minus the Muslims and tourism. I've been to the border of both these places. You can get shot rather easily by the occupying Russian troops.

Cultur/mentality:
You gotta realize a lot of Russian want the ussr back, and view the 90s/fall of ussr as not a defeat to the west, and an inferiority of their system to capitalism (how westerners view it) but an implosion brought on by traitors (gorby/yeltsin). It's a time of great shame to many in all of Eastern Europe. They want to regain their pride and they feel the west has treated them unfairly and with undue arrogance (I can agree with these sentiments).

But Russia is and always has been a plutocracy. Ukraine decided they have had enough of that criminal bullshit and wanted to follow the model of Georgia and move towards democratization. For discussion let's say that Crimea was totally justified and no one is angered by the actions in the peninsula. Why is Russia occupying Donetsk and lugansk? How is that in any perception of justice, just?

3. One accepted by organizations who's sole mission is to promote peace in the region and/or the world (UN, OSCE)
http://www.osce.org/cio/116313
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=47443#.V9ohzjROKnM


But okay dude who neither speaks Russian/Ukrainian, and who has likely never even been outside of the US's sphere of influence, and has only become aware of the issue at hand within the previous 72 hours, I'm sure you know more than the UN, and all this really is as simple as 1 or 0
:rolleyes:


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23646295 - 09/15/16 12:32 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
There is a lot to be said for having pride in oneself. Just look at this Kremlin propagandist, everything Russia does (and the party line they push, as evidenced by the aforementioned) is meant to project external power.



I don't think it's to project external power.  I think Russia accepted the Crimean vote to rejoin Russia in order to prevent its only warm water base in Sevastopol from being turned over to NATO.

Quote:

elax420 said:
My opinion, of course they want to be apart of Russia, the Soviet Union was fucking awesome for a lot of the former cccp. And nostalgia is a hell of a phenomenon.  However the short answer is: Neither the UN nor OSCE accept the results of the referendum so nuff said. If you asked 100 straight men if they want to fuck the beatiful and elegant proverbial Tatyana, not even 98 would say yes :lol: I bet more than 2-3% of humans disagree about the sun being the center of the solar system and the theory of gravity. Obviously that's a bullshit "vote"



Of course voting about scientific fact is bullshit.  However, voting for what you want from your Government is democracy.  And you just said you agree the Crimean people want to rejoin Russia. 

Quote:

elax420 said:
2.Well since I'm not Vladimir Putin, my opinion is just conjecture. I Imagine it has something to do with the fact Russia has like a grand total of 4 warm water ports and the base in Crimea is the home of the Russian fleet. Russia is largely landlocked (who knows maybe global warming will be good for them).



I agree.

Quote:

elax420 said:
Ukraine decided they have had enough of that criminal bullshit and wanted to follow the model of Georgia and move towards democratization. For discussion let's say that Crimea was totally justified and no one is angered by the actions in the peninsula. Why is Russia occupying Donetsk and lugansk? How is that in any perception of justice, just?



To protect the lives of the Russian speaking people who are being killed by Ukrainians.  :shrug:

Quote:

elax420 said:
But okay dude who neither speaks Russian/Ukrainian, and who has likely never even been outside of the US's sphere of influence, and has only become aware of the issue at hand within the previous 72 hours, I'm sure you know more than the UN, and all this really is as simple as 1 or 0
:rolleyes:



Wrong.  I speak Russian and German, and I was just in Russia this summer (here's a very brief post on it).  My closest friend lived in Russia their whole life until Perestroika.  What's you connection to Russia?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Invisibleelax420
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Registered: 10/16/12
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Re: War and Politics *DELETED* [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23646498 - 09/15/16 03:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Post deleted by elax420

Reason for deletion: Way too much info. If you wanna be a fucking idiot, be my guest



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Invisibleelax420
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23646515 - 09/15/16 03:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

interesting you mention nothing about how all relevant international organizations have sided with Ukraine on the matter.



Oh poor little victim Russia. The ruel CIA, NWO, globalist, reptilian, space devil ploy to undermine the great leader!  Whatever are they going to do with the second most powerful army in the world and largest nuclear stockpile.....



If you can't respect the opinion of the OSCE, and especially that of the UN, there is nothing to talk about with you. You recognize no institutions with any legitimacy or authority, rather you come in with pretext of might =right and a healthy respect for autocracy. Further, you have little if anything to add to any actual "debate."
This is why I originally bowed out, my ego however stupidly brought me back.

Whatever though dude, there are people that think slavery is morally justifiable. Can't save em all!



Edited by elax420 (09/15/16 09:20 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23647079 - 09/15/16 10:23 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
Post deleted by elax420

Reason for deletion: Way too much info.  If you wanna be a fucking idiot, be my guest



Ignoring the argument and resorting to name calling doesn't exactly make ME the idiot...  :smirk:

Quote:

elax420 said:
interesting you mention nothing about how all relevant international organizations have sided with Ukraine on the matter.

If you can't respect the opinion of the OSCE, and especially that of the UN, there is nothing to talk about with you. You recognize no institutions with any legitimacy or authority



Did you know the resolution not to recognize the results of the referendum in Crimea never passed in the UN?  The best the UN could do was hold a non binding vote, which has no force of law by their own rules.

Quote:

elax420 said:
you come in with pretext of might =right and a healthy respect for autocracy.



No, I said I have a healthy respect for democracy and the will of a people to determine their fate.  As noted by the Crimean referendum and the follow up Pew Research poll, an overwhelming number of Crimeans wanted to separate from Ukraine.  But feel free to insist the Crimeans bow down to the will of the West...

Quote:

elax420 said:
Further, you have little if anything to add to any actual "debate."
This is why I originally bowed out, my ego however stupidly brought me back.



So you're not a big fan of facts?  I tend to do a point by point rebuttal of everything I disagree with.  Maybe you can enlighten me on which point(s) I've fallen short on facts and/or logic?  Don't give a generic answer either...

Quote:

elax420 said:
Oh poor little victim Russia. The ruel CIA, NWO, globalist, reptilian, space devil ploy to undermine the great leader!  Whatever are they going to do with the second most powerful army in the world and largest nuclear stockpile.....

Whatever though dude, there are people that think slavery is morally justifiable. Can't save em all!



:freshwtf:




--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineperikleous
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Registered: 04/22/15
Posts: 277
Loc: EuroZone Victim
Last seen: 2 years, 3 months
Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420] * 1
    #23647376 - 09/15/16 12:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Simply put if Russia didn't have the weopens/military they have, Nato would have already stepped in and took Putin down!

    They would have used the usual excuse, he tortures his citizens and refused to incorporate democracy wanting the USSR back, Blah blah blah

  Those weopens/military keep them safe from corporate elite plundering them again...


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous] * 1
    #23647544 - 09/15/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

True story. Same reason Iran and North Korea still exist in their current state.


Although, the more time goes on I start to think that North Korea is just the ugly girl we keep around to make us all look prettier.


--------------------


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: War and Politics [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23647846 - 09/15/16 03:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Although, the more time goes on I start to think that North Korea is just the ugly girl we keep around to make us all look prettier.






or a whipping boy.  why devote time/resources towards a country that would yield negligible gains and can't do much more than hurt their own citizens? especially when you have someone to shit on publicly and use as another tool for oppressing one's own citizens (USA)


--------------------
channel your inner Larry David


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Invisibleelax420
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Registered: 10/16/12
Posts: 15,536
Re: War and Politics [Re: demiu5]
    #23648036 - 09/15/16 04:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Russia just banned pornhub and youporn!

Lel

What a progressive country. Let's all model ourselves after the new Tsarist regime where playing Pokemon GO in church is an offense against the state punishable by jail time, and the two biggest porn sites are banned!


Go join your sexually and politically repressed comrades in the motherland falcon!
I think you will be bitterly disappointed when you find out how bigoted the country is. Doesn't quite mesh with your kumbaya liberal bullshit.

Родина-мать зовёт!
повеселись в Лубянке, блядь.


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Posts: 33,369
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23648117 - 09/15/16 05:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I dont think anyone of sufficient intelligence thinks Russia espouses liberal beliefs, values, or employs modern left wing economic beliefs.


--------------------


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23648181 - 09/15/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
I dont think anyone of sufficient intelligence thinks Russia espouses liberal beliefs, values, or employs modern left wing economic beliefs.



I know, I don't get elax's last post at all.

:freshwtf:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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