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OfflineCrumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23622721 - 09/07/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Whoops, I was ambiguous and now Im confused. Do you agree

We allow Nation Y to commit genocide if we think it might lead to Nation Y collapsing sooner than if we intervened, which we believe is good
or
We should intervene to prevent Nation Y from committing genocide

Im for option 2


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'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23622768 - 09/07/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i agree that it is probably best to prevent an assured atrocity if possible than to allow it in hopes of a hypothetical greater good.  In general.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23622830 - 09/07/16 05:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Taking your example of Russian expansion. Just because it might not work out for Russia in the long term doesn't
mean the international community can sit idly by as Russia invades itty bitty Lithuania and starts shelling civilians or some
other crap. I'd hope the rest of the word would write strongly worded letters, and then sanctions, and accommodate talks,
and eventually, if the humanitarian situation was bad enough I would hope there would be an intervention



More "hey everyone, let's all be scared of Russia because it might help a war hawk win the election!"  The Democratic party ain't the party of Carter anymore, just like the Republican party ain't the party of Lincoln.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23622997 - 09/07/16 05:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

In that thread on Russia I feel I got driven to a more hawkish position than I actually have.
Im not voting for Hillary primarily because she is a hawk. My issue with Trump's stance on NATO
is he proposes taking protection money with no talk of withdrawing. I strongly doubt he will
be any kind of dove in the S. China Sea either.
Neither is Putin any kind of dove.

I'm not scared of Russia. Here in America I have 0.00001% risk of bodily harm because of
Russia, or N. Korea, or Iran, or terrorists, or Mexicans.


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23623040 - 09/07/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

That's one one hundred thousandth of a percent, people.

Wakey wakey.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23623058 - 09/07/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Politico-military facts of the world as we know it:

The U.S. enjoys absolute Naval superiority worldwide.

By extension, the U.S. enjoys absolute air superiority worldwide.

The U.S. will not allow Russia or China to threaten its monopoly on control of the world's oceans in the S. China Sea or anywhere else.

As long as their actions don't interfere with the previously mentioned monopoly, and all of the implied trade advantages etc. for the ruling elite of the west, Russia and China will be allowed to do as they please within their prescribed spheres of influence.

thats pretty much it.  if Jinping decides to interfere with U.S. naval operations, it will not go well for China.  By contrast, if China massacres all of its ethnic Uyghurs, the U.S. won't do shit.  Same with Russia. If Putin decides to interfere with U.S. Naval operations in or around Syria, it will not go well for Russia. By contrast, if Putin decides to invade Lithuania, the U.S. won't do shit.


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Offlineperikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23625641 - 09/08/16 12:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You see a point? they are the same, TWO SIDES OF THE SAME COIN! If you vote Hitlery you get TTP TTIP War w/ Russia and or China, If you vote Trump you get stricter Police state, more spying, less freedom/rights and either way, no new jobs/Us corporations returning, but maybe less immigrants taking away your minimum wage job, wow thats a winner, I get to work at 7/11 instead of Al Amed, white Americans carrying back pack grass blowers for minimum wage instead of Chico,  I get to be the janitor instead of Pablo but regardless no real work!!!Yet more police violence because thats the Republican way-Stop and Frisk is a good thing!!!!! Wake up voters they are both all the negatives and none of the positives for this country, two sides of the same coin, they are technically one in the same, would you rather suffer through less rights or die by nuclear war? you lose either way!!! I will vote Indepedent to make the statement that they both suck regardless!


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Offlineperikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: The Ecstatic] * 2
    #23625685 - 09/08/16 12:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

you will never see the people unite/agree because they are being divided by this same Gov policy! BLM and all this crap is created to keep us divided, The .01% know a movement of the people is the biggest threat! They know by making you think the police/gov issue is a Black/white issue its ok, WE know its a rich/poor issue the have yachts and have nots! There is no hiding the fact that the police violence isnt a black/minority issue, its a poor-low wage working class issue, and when they are eliminated the police will be sent to attack the next class of people and so on, no one is safe but the .01% and possibly the 1% for a while! Working class minorities have much more in common with working class white people than working class people of any type have in common with the wealthy! You will see and spend more time around Jamal and Pablo at work then you will ever spend with the Donald Trumps/Bill Gates of society, do You think they have a clue about what your day to day struggles are? Pablo and Jamal do!!!


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous]
    #23626510 - 09/08/16 05:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I don't agree BLM is a .01% plot to divide us. BLM is a child of Occupy Wall Street and there is nothing
preventing you from supporting their cause. Labor and racial causes are intertwined since the creation
of the proletariat. Have an issue with their tactics? Sorry, but Ghandi and MLK and Chavez didn't get anything
done by following the rules of the powers that be


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23626527 - 09/08/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

racial and labor issues have been intertwined ever since it was discovered that people within the same wealth class could be set against each other based on race.
Social justice issues are absolutely a distraction from the underlying class division issues which are in turn the root cause of most social justice issues.


--------------------


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23626551 - 09/08/16 05:36 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Social justice issues are class issues are social justice issues.
We can sit here and argue about how each other's goals are derivative
or we can unite against a common foe and actually get those bastards.


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist] * 1
    #23627578 - 09/08/16 11:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

indeed.
However, racism is really, really, really, a thing still, and it seems impossible to get the hillbilly poor onto their own team (class-wise). Personally, i think that the racism will sort itself out if we can just get everyone on board with the class warfare thing.


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Offlineperikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23627628 - 09/08/16 11:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

YOUR back and forth with each other is exactly what I am saying! We are debating whether its race or class and they are laughing, all the way to the bank! Im not saying BLM is a creation of the 1%, Im saying by stressing the black/white issue we are all losing, at some point the enemy of my enemy is my friend! all the working class (HAVE NOTS)being minority or majority have to get on the same page to fix this and stop the HAVE YACHTS from keeping any/all of us down. Yes I agree the BLM movement is a reality because the police violence is clearly disproportionate when you consider the black population is 13% yet they are shot by cops like 3x more often, however,if you take the middle and upper class whites/minorities out of the equasion and the neighborhoods they live in and compare the rest you will see a completely different figure, the amount of whites that get raided/swatted/shot is huge but nobody is talking about it when that happens, a quick headline and over, when/if they reach the point its BROKE LIVES MATTER (lowest income families) meaning BLM we will get somewhere and until then we are divided!


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous]
    #23639094 - 09/12/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Ooh-kRry-ina (Ukraine)

New frontline for the new Cold War?



I certianly think so. Both sides have bolsted their forces on the NATO/Russian border.


I think it's pretty sad that such a beautiful country is gonna get face fucked, even more than it already is, in the coming years. Russia fucked up big time by annexing Ukraine and trying to control their politics. The US fucked up big time by expanding into Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, and ex Yugoslavia.


The poor Ukrainians are caught in the middle.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23639117 - 09/12/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

we snatched some former soviet states into our sphere of influence, and now Putin wants them back.  if he insists, we'll let him have them and the inevitable multiple decade insurgencies that will come along with them. :shrug:


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23639131 - 09/12/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It is viewed as aggresive expansion.
Crimea is viewed as aggressive expansion by Americans :shrug:

The former soviet states hopped out of one abusive relationship right into another, they will realize it with time.



Russia's justifications are true. The areas are largely Russian speaking, and view Moscow as their capital rather than kyiv

The problem is Russia signed a treaty promising not to do what they did, in exchange for all of Ukraine's nukes.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23639160 - 09/12/16 05:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

why did everyone think that they wanted those nukes back?


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23639193 - 09/12/16 05:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I don't get the question?
Ukraine had like all the best ports of the USSR and some major military bases too (the one the Russians took in Crimea)


When the USSR disolved part of the agreement between Russia and Ukraine was to switch the nukes since the nukes were Russian and obviously the most important tool in international diplomacy.

Russia agreed to respect their territorial integrity in exchange.


Russians dominated ukrianian politics until euromaidan. The Ukrainians say Russian invaded because of that. Russia says popular referendum/insurgents not linked to Moscow. Obviously the truth lies in the middle.


USA got involved because we always get involved in literally everything.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: elax420]
    #23639330 - 09/12/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

elax420 said:
part of the agreement between Russia and Ukraine was to switch the nukes since the nukes were Russian and obviously the most important tool in international diplomacy.

Russia agreed to respect their territorial integrity in exchange.


Russians dominated ukrianian politics until euromaidan.





Russia was able to renege on the deal and annex territory precisely because they got the nukes back.  They got the nukes back in order to facilitate this very action should it become necessary because of some political shift in ukraine.


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Invisibleelax420
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #23639432 - 09/12/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

dude Ukraine is the size of Texas. Russia spans 11 time zones. Ukraine was forced to give back the nukes for 2 reasons

1) Russia would and still can very easily skull fuck them
2) they weren't Ukrainian to begin with, refusing to turn them over would almost certainly be an act of war.
3) Russia and Ukraine had great relations until the orange revolution (2005)


Plus they have considerable cultural, linguistic, and historical ties.
It's not like France giving Germany their weapons.



Theres more to it then that too.

In the 50s Russian SSR gave the Ukrainian SSR Crimea in exchange for some eastern regions. It didn't matter back then because it was the same federal unit. It would be like Florida giving the panhandle to Bama.

But Crimea is of massive strategic importance, especially with the murricans breathing down Russia's neck, so they took it back. I have a Ukrainian friend from Donetsk and one from Crimea and neither speak ukrianian but rather russian.

I also have another buddy from Donetsk who is hardcore nationalistic about Ukraine. It's really not as simple as 1 and 0


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