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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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War and Politics
    #23572496 - 08/24/16 10:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

War and Politics are seemingly inseparable.  Indeed, war may very well simply be an extension of politics.  I've heard that "there is nothing new under the sun" and that "the more things change, the more they stay the same", and it is in this spirit that this thread will examine the wars and political intrigues of history to see what, if any, insights can be gained into current wars and political intrigues.

I'll start. 

Some people fear Russian expansion in Eastern Europe.  I don't think there's anything much for Americans to worry about in that regard, because I don't think such expansion would play out to the benefit of Russia in the long term, and i think that the reasons are obvious enough that Putin and anyone else with any power in Russia must be able to see them as well.  Therefore, Russia will not engage in any further designs on Eastern Europe in the near future.  As evidence i cite every insurgency and the corresponding inability for traditional armies to come to grips with such foes for the last couple hundred years going back to the U.S. revolution.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23572607 - 08/24/16 11:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:whathesaid:  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Offlineperikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa] * 4
    #23572658 - 08/24/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Russia is being crapped on because they refuse to bend over for the US! Unlike the EU Canada Australia who gave up there soverenity to the US in exchange for empty promises, Russia/China will not do that, the US would be ok w/ this except for the fact that the worlds resources are no longer looked at as endless, The logical way to view this would be to let capitalism set the market and he who is willing to pay more will get the resources offered. The US believes they are the ONLY one who should decide what its worth and get 1st dibbs, Russia/China wont agree to that logic and that causes friction. That is the sole reason they are a THREAT to NATIONAL SECURITY, not in a violence/war way the way the US describes it, its resources demand issue. Sadly the US wants everyone to think Russian economy is in the toilet and if that were true they wouldn't be a threat in any way, the truth is Russia has basically zero national debt, they have a negative balance but whats overlooked is the money the US owes them, and the money that was frozen when they were sanctioned as well as the 35 billion(17 billion actual money due now)Ukraine is in debted to them, If Russia collected that balance they would be in better financial shape than any country in the world. They are not living on credit like the EU/US. These are not really political issues because our elected officials are only mouthpieces for our corporate elite,to sell it to the public  which now are Global corporate elite since these businesses are owned by multiple countries and listed as US companies aside from the shareholders (like citi bank owned by Saudi Arabia 60% of stock). Which country has 900 military bases throughout the world? hint its not Russia/China...Who is the real threat...These elites OWN the NSA control the CIA and NATO and they are used as weopens to control everyone that doesnt relent to there wishes,politicians worldwide are spied on for dirt to be used against them later, companies are spied on for financial gain, countries are spied on for resource inventory and Nato is used in criminal ways to take these resources usually under the false narrative of a countries leader who is not democratic, mistreats his citizens, this is elite code for "he wont give us what we want! 1st they try to bribe them (misleading loans-IMF worldbank yadda yadda yadda) then they use the dirt from NSA then finally if all else fails NATO...
The politics isnt the issue, its the monsters (elite)that have decided who we vote for based on the dirt and bribes they control them with, so who is deciding the worlds fate, the richest .01%  of US EU AUS CAN SA ISRAEL blah blah they own everything including the news you watch/read to sell the citizens the BS


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous]
    #23572782 - 08/24/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous] * 1
    #23572856 - 08/24/16 01:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with many of your points, however, i don't agree with this conclusion:

Quote:

These are not really political issues because our elected officials are only mouthpieces for our corporate elite,to sell it to the public  which now are Global corporate elite since these businesses are owned by multiple countries and listed as US companies aside from the shareholders (like citi bank owned by Saudi Arabia 60% of stock).




just because these things are largely controlled by the wealthy elite, doesn't mean that they are not political issues.  Indeed, politics has historically been the arena of the wealthy elite, while the "unwashed masses" have almost always had very little say in such matters.


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Offlineperikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23572960 - 08/24/16 02:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I would agree with that view but I just see political issues are issues that have multiple sides and outcomes as well as input from the citizens but these issues are decided well in advance and there is no changing the plan, just slowing it or delaying it, but i guess there is more to a political side/view of it.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous] * 2
    #23573074 - 08/24/16 02:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that public opinion and policy usually diverge radically.  However, there are numerous instances in which the government is forced to be democratic.  But with what's going on behind the scenes, not at all.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: War and Politics [Re: DividedQuantum] * 4
    #23573715 - 08/24/16 06:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
there are numerous instances in which the government is forced to be democratic.



The issues that Government is "democratic" about are only those that don't impact the pocketbooks of the big corporations/wealthy.  You want gay rights?  Sure, if the majority agree.  You want stricter border controls?  Sure, if the majority agree.  You want to cut military spending by ending overseas wars?  Ain't gonna happen.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #23573804 - 08/24/16 06:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That's a really good point.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 4
    #23574167 - 08/24/16 08:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
there are numerous instances in which the government is forced to be democratic.



The issues that Government is "democratic" about are only those that don't impact the pocketbooks of the big corporations/wealthy.  You want gay rights?  Sure, if the majority agree.  You want stricter border controls?  Sure, if the majority agree.  You want to cut military spending by ending overseas wars?  Ain't gonna happen.




Even the border issue has lots of money involved (border patrol, deportation/detention complex, organized crime smuggling, cheap ag labor, to name a few).

To add to what fal said, they usually give us the social causes. But even so, they fight us on that ever so subtly. A divided public is easier to control, and once everyone truly has equal rights and opportunity, theyll turn towards the REAL problems.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #23615382 - 09/05/16 05:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

So the following exchange happened here:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23598023
and I thought that it embodied perfectly the overlap between war and politics.



Quote:

Bigbadwooof said:
I don't care if it is functional. Our government has way too much power, and it has become addicted (and they call me a 'kratom addict'! lmao!). People like Clinton go around the world murdering people. People like the DEA go around banning benign substances in order to satiate big-pharma's desire for market control. The NSA spies on its own people, etc etc. No knock-raids...

I think to fix our government we must first burn it down. When they are rigging elections, there is no recourse within the system.




Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
You're right.  Any suggestions for a strategy?  They have all the best weapons; we are owned in multiple respects.




Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
You're right.  Any suggestions for a strategy?  They have all the best weapons; we are owned in multiple respects.





excerpted from Sir Basil Hart's "Strategy, Second Revised Edition"

Quote:

Meantime, in the desert to the east and south, a curious campaign was not only helping weaken the fighting strength of Turkey, but shdding some new light on strategy-and, in particular, on the indirect approach.  This campaign was the Arab Revolt, with Lawrence as its guiding brain.  While it come into the catagory of guerilla warfare, which is by its very nature indirect, its strategy had such a scientifically calculated basis that we should not miss its reflection on normal warfare.  Admittedly an extreme form of the indirec t approach, it was most economically effective within the limits of the instrument.  The Arabs were both more mobile and less able to bear casualties than orthodox armies.  The Turks were almost insusceptable to loss of men, but not to loss of material-of which they suffered a scarcity.  Superb in sitting tight in a trench, firing at a directly oncoming target, they were neither adaptable to, nor able to endure the strain of, fluid operations.  They were trying to hold down an vast area of country with a quantity of men which was not large enough to spread itself into a network of posts over the area. Also, they depended on a long and frail line of communications.
  From these premises was evolved a strategy which was the antithesis if orthodox doctrine.  whereas normal armies seek to preserve contact, the Arabs sought to avoid it.  Whereas normal armies seek to destroy the opposing forces, the Arabs sought purely to destroy material-and to seek it at points where there was no force.  But Lawrence's strategy went further/  Instead of trying to drive the enemy away by cutting off their supplies, he aimed to keep them there, by allowing short rations to reach them, so that the longer they stayed the weaker and more depressed they became.  Blows might induce them to concentrate, and simplify both their supply ans security problems.  Pin-pricks kept them spread out.  Yet for all its unconventionality this strategy merely carried to its logical conclusion that of following the line of least resistance.  As its author has said: "The Arab army never tried to maintain or improve an advantage, but to move off and strike again somewhere else.  It used the smallest force in the quickest time at the farthest place.  To continue the action till the enemy had changed his dispositions to resist it, would have been to break the fundamental rule of denying him targets."
  What was this but the strategy evolved in 1918 on the Western Front?  Fundamentally the same, but carried to a further degree.
  Its application to the problem of normal warfare is condidtioned by factors of time, space, and force.  While it is a quickened and active form of blockade it is inherently slower to take effect that a strategy of dislocation.  Hence, if national conditions make a quick issue imperative the latter approach is preferable.  But unless the end is sought by an indirect approach, the "short-cut" is likely to prove slower, more costly, and more dangerous than the "Lawrence" strategy.  Lack of room and density of force are also handicaps, if rarely insuperable.  A reasoned verdict is that in normal warfare the choice should fall on the form of indirect approach which aims at a quick decision, by "trapping" the opponent-if there is a good prospect of its success.  Otherwise, or after it has failed, the choice should fall on that form of indirect approach which aims at an eventual decision by sapping the opponent's strength and will.  Anything is preferable to the direct approach.




Quote:

The ratio of space to forces is a key factor in guerrilla war.  This was vividly expressed in Lawrence's mathematical calculation about the Arab Revolt- that to hold it in check, the Turks would "have need of a fortified post every four square miles, and a post could not be less than twenty men", so the requirement would be 600,000 men for the area they were trying to control, whereas they had only 100,000 available. "Our success was certain, to be proved by pencil and paper as soon as the proportion of space and number had been learned".  Such a calculation, though oversimplified, embodies a general truth.  The ratio of space to forces is a basic factor, but the product varies with the type of country and the relative mobility of the two sides, as well as their relative morales.




Quote:

"The concentrated essence of Strategy and Tactics"
Positive:
1) Adjust your end to your means. In determining your object, clear sight and cool calculation should prevail.  It is folly "to bite off more than you can chew" and the beginning of military wisdom is a sense of what is possible

2) Keep your object always in mind, while adapting your plan to circumstances.  Realize that there are more ways than one of gaining an object, but take heed that every objective should bear on the object.

3) Choose the line (or course) of least expectation.  Try to put yourself in the enemies' shoes.

4) Exploit the line of least resistance-so long as it can lead you to any objective which would contribute to your underlying object.
 
5) Take a line of operation which offers alternative objectives.  For you will thus put your opponent on the horns of a dilemma, which goes far to assure the chance of gaining one objective at least-whichever he guards least-and may enable you to gain one after the other

6) Ensure that both plan and disposistions are flexible-adaptable to circumstances.  Your polan should forsee and provide for a next step in case of success or failure, or partial success-which is the most common case i war.

Negative:

7) Do not throw your weight into a stroke whilst your opponent is on guard

8) Do not renew an attack along the same line (or in the same form) after it has once failed. A mere reinforcement of weight is not sufficient change, for it is probable that the enemy also will have strengthened himself in the interval.






Yeah, i just typed that shit out manually because i could find a good source to copy-paste from.  so what?




questions? comments? complaints?


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Offlineperikleous
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #23616509 - 09/05/16 10:26 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Sad but I dont want to say anything negative about gay rights, however the gov didnt have a choice, it was only a matter of time before a homosexual or gay person that may have personal/financial issues stepped away from the "community" calling it a disability from birth and demanding gov help, wanting psychological counciling,for years of abuse as a school age child, wanting the financial benefits of a disability (down syndrome/autism) as a birth defect and saying they have not had opportunities that a straight person has including marraige/family-household tax benefits.. Orlando gay club shooter "needed counciling on his sexuality" blah blah, in the end the courts would have forced gov to pay, so legalizing all cleared the path and any chance of future costs, especially seeing the BOOM in recent comming outs since its been legalized...


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OfflineTipote
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Re: War and Politics [Re: perikleous]
    #23619465 - 09/06/16 07:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

some great points on this thread, thanks :thumbup:


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War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength


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OfflineDouglas Howard
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Tipote]
    #23621123 - 09/07/16 08:14 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)


 
CIA’s final report: No WMD found in Iraq http://www.nbcnews.com/id/7634313/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/t/cias-final-report-no-wmd-found-iraq/#.V9Adnk0rLIU


The Democratic presidential nominee is leading Republican rival Donald Trump by a ratio of 2-to-1 in campaign donations from employees working for defense giants like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/defense-industry-hillary-clinton-227336#ixzz4JZxFS1uH
Follow us: @politico on Twitter | Politico on Facebook



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Offlinetruthfull
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Douglas Howard] * 1
    #23621342 - 09/07/16 09:54 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The east vs west paradigm is a complete facade!

One glance and the interconnectedness of the global money policies is all one needs.


If there were true grievances and rivalries then Russia would expose the federal reserves lawless rape of the financial system but t seems the globalist  leaders all play their role in the large facade.


Trace the lawless money and inflation practices and it's clear they are sleeping in the same bed


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Offlinetruthfull
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Re: War and Politics [Re: truthfull]
    #23621353 - 09/07/16 09:58 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Perkleous you get it!


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23622528 - 09/07/16 04:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

There have been hundreds of insurgencies that have failed. (the Basques, FARC, Chinese boxers to name a few)
I'll grant that warfare favors moreso insurgents now than it did in the past, but just
because you have home field advantage or hang out in the jungle doesn't make you invincible.

Taking your example of Russian expansion. Just because it might not work out for Russia in the long term doesn't
mean the international community can sit idly by as Russia invades itty bitty Lithuania and starts shelling civilians or some
other crap. I'd hope the rest of the word would write strongly worded letters, and then sanctions, and accommodate talks,
and eventually, if the humanitarian situation was bad enough I would hope there would be an intervention


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23622568 - 09/07/16 04:17 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Taking your example of Russian expansion. Just because it might not work out for Russia in the long term doesn't
mean the international community can sit idly by as Russia invades itty bitty Lithuania and starts shelling civilians or some
other crap. I'd hope the rest of the word would write strongly worded letters, and then sanctions, and accommodate talks,
and eventually, if the humanitarian situation was bad enough I would hope there would be an intervention





and yet, if one were to believe that the greater good would be served by the weakening and eventual downfall of Russia and her removal from power in the region, then perhaps the most moral thing would be to allow or even prod Russia to "bite off more than it can chew" in eastern europe, despite any arising humanitarian crisis. (as admittedly distasteful as that sounds)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: War and Politics [Re: ballsalsa]
    #23622610 - 09/07/16 04:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:and yet, if one were to believe that the greater good would be served by the weakening and eventual downfall of Russia and her removal from power in the region


I don't believe this.
Quote:

perhaps the most moral thing would be to allow or even prod Russia to "bite off more than it can chew" in eastern europe, despite any arising humanitarian crisis. (as admittedly distasteful as that sounds)


This would be a case of the ends not justifying the means, whatsoever.


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: War and Politics [Re: Crumist]
    #23622680 - 09/07/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:and yet, if one were to believe that the greater good would be served by the weakening and eventual downfall of Russia and her removal from power in the region


I don't believe this.
Quote:

perhaps the most moral thing would be to allow or even prod Russia to "bite off more than it can chew" in eastern europe, despite any arising humanitarian crisis. (as admittedly distasteful as that sounds)


This would be a case of the ends not justifying the means, whatsoever.





i tend to agree with you


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