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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Fascism
    #2356810 - 02/19/04 10:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

What does it mean to you, and to what degree does it exist in our society?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Fascism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2356836 - 02/19/04 10:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

the definition of fascism..straight from the horses mouth ..

Quote:

Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.
[benito mussolini]




by this definition..a govt is fascist to the degree that it is controlled by corporate interests...


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Fascism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2356863 - 02/19/04 10:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It means to me USA


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Fascism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2357171 - 02/20/04 01:14 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

From Dictionary.com

A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.


I'm not a big fan of binary concepts, meaning I don't think things like we are fascist or we are not. Analog is the way to go -- there are degrees to everything. While not nearly as pure as some in the past, I believe the USA has been becoming slightly more for a while, especially in the last couple years.

If you go purely by Mussolini's definition. The USA is even more fascist as corporations assume quite a bit of control over government, through various PAC's, lobbies, and media ownership.

But like I said, not near fascism of wwii, at least ours still has a decent coating of liberty and freedom... For the sake of those things lets hope this trend reverses itself.


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Offlinezeronio
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Re: Fascism [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2357908 - 02/20/04 04:29 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Fascism has evolved since WW2. Now it's hiding its true nature behind an illusion of democracy.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fascism [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2358274 - 02/20/04 08:48 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

FrankieJustTrypt writes:

If you go purely by Mussolini's definition. The USA is even more fascist as corporations assume quite a bit of control over government, through various PAC's, lobbies, and media ownership.

Mussolini's definition -- the merger of state and corporate power -- doesn't mean that corporations control government (not that US corps control US government anyway), but rather the reverse.

This is illustrated quite clearly by the fact that in the two most famous Fascist societies -- 1930s and 40s Italy and Germany -- the state had complete and total control over all aspects of corporate life.

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Fascism [Re: Phred]
    #2359091 - 02/20/04 01:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Mussolini's definition -- the merger of state and corporate power -- doesn't mean that corporations control government (not that US corps control US government anyway), but rather the reverse.




the definition doesnt specify the direction of the "merger"..but only that it exists (the nation)...which one controls the other is a matter of the glass being half-empty vs. half-full...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2359177 - 02/20/04 01:53 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

the definition doesnt specify the direction of the "merger"..but only that it exists...

It is true that Mussolini's phrase doesn't go into comprehensive detail regarding the nature of the "merger". That doesn't alter the fact that under Fascism, the state controls industry and not the reverse.

...which one controls the other is a matter of the glass being half-empty vs. half-full...

It also decides how the system of government can be accurately described. If the state controls the corporations, then the system in place (assuming the other criteria defining Fascism are also met) is Fascism. If the corporations control the state (as in some areas appears to be the case in modern Japan) then we have to call it something other than Fascism. Zaibatsuism, perhaps?

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Fascism [Re: Phred]
    #2359422 - 02/20/04 03:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i would imagine that once a fascist state has been fully implemented..it would be very difficult to determine whether the "corporations" or the "govt" was in control..or even to distinguish one from the other...i dont know the exact specifics of hitler & mussolini..but i suspect that this was actually the case.. and that the argument that the state controlled industry was an attempt to discredit socialism...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Fascism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2359517 - 02/20/04 03:28 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I define fascism in several different ways, the most general of which is this:

Fascism is the non-consensual enforcement of order on that which is naturally chaotic.

And, yeah, its everywhere. Its a basic element of human psychology. There's a little Hitler inside everyone.


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Fascism [Re: Phred]
    #2359618 - 02/20/04 03:45 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

not that US corps control US government anyway


Would you agree that corporations exert a degree of influence over government through things like campaign contributions to politicians, PAC's, lobbies, (overall power of the purse)etc... And also through manipulation of the electorate via mass media(IE they can set focus, decide which candidates receive publicity, and whether it will lean towards good or bad publicity.)?

I'll be honest, I view the system in washington and elsewhere a big back-scratching convention...


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Edited by FrankieJustTrypt (02/20/04 03:46 PM)


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OfflinePsilocybeingzz
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Re: Fascism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2360154 - 02/20/04 05:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

sorry if you think what I am about to say is BIAS but you will have to take it up with ADAM SMITH, NOT ME, Silversoul


"Anarcho-socialism: The political and economic theory elabourated by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations, in which the workers control the production of goods and services which are then bought and sold in an open market. Formerly known as capitalism.

Capitalism: The degenerate condition also discussed by Adam Smith in the same work; the merger of government and corporate interests. Formerly known as corporatism or fascism. "


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Anonymous

Re: Fascism [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #2360347 - 02/20/04 06:31 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

adam smith never wrote anything of the sort.

capitalism once was really "anarcho-socialism", whereas today it is really "fascism" or "corporatism"?

please.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fascism [Re: FrankieJustTrypt]
    #2361427 - 02/21/04 12:04 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

FrankieJustTrypt writes:

Would you agree that corporations exert a degree of influence over government through things like campaign contributions to politicians, PAC's, lobbies, (overall power of the purse)etc...

Do corporations have a degree of influence over politicians through the methods you mentioned? Of course. So do unions, welfare recipients, farmers, and numerous other special interest groups.

And also through manipulation of the electorate via mass media(IE they can set focus, decide which candidates receive publicity, and whether it will lean towards good or bad publicity.)?

If by "manipulation" of the mass media you mean that corporations other than those corporations who own media outlets decide which political issues and/or candidates the press chooses to cover and in what light then no I don't agree.

Even assuming for the sake of argument that corporations did control (or even influence) government and the press, the resulting system could not be described as Fascism.

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Fascism [Re: Phred]
    #2361806 - 02/21/04 01:08 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Even assuming for the sake of argument that corporations did control (or even influence) government and the press, the resulting system could not be described as Fascism.




"influence" maybe..maybe not.. "control"..definitely fascism...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2362108 - 02/21/04 02:20 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

"influence" maybe..maybe not.. "control"..definitely fascism...

Incorrect. See the above posts. Fascism is that organization of a society in which (among other things) the state controls industry, not the reverse.

If there were a country in which industry controls the state, it would have to be called something other than Fascist.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2362154 - 02/21/04 02:30 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

I would imagine that once a fascist state has been fully implemented..it would be very difficult to determine whether the "corporations" or the "govt" was in control..or even to distinguish one from the other...

No one can credibly argue that Hitler's Germany was an example of a state in which Fascism was not fully implemented, and it was quite apparent who was in control in Hitler's Germany. (Hint -- it wasn't the corporations.)

...i dont know the exact specifics of hitler & mussolini..

You would do yourself a service by reading at least a brief history of Fascist Italy and Fascist Germany before trying to discuss "Fascism" in a public forum.

..but i suspect that this was actually the case..

Your suspicions are inaccurate.

... and that the argument that the state controlled industry was an attempt to discredit socialism...

a) it's not an "argument" that the state controlled industry, it's fact.

b) the state didn't control industry in order to "discredit socialism", it controlled industry in an attempt to further the goals of the state.

pinky


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Fascism [Re: Phred]
    #2363867 - 02/21/04 03:08 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Annapurna1 writes:

"influence" maybe..maybe not.. "control"..definitely fascism...

Incorrect. See the above posts. Fascism is that organization of a society in which (among other things) the state controls industry, not the reverse.

If there were a country in which industry controls the state, it would have to be called something other than Fascist.

pinky




then what should the corporate-dominant case be called??..perhaps "corporatism"...pls refer back to mussolini's definition..it seems to cover both cases...i suppose you neocons would call it "individualism"...


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2364113 - 02/21/04 04:19 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Annapurna1 writes:

then what should the corporate-dominant case be called??..perhaps "corporatism"...

Perhaps. I have come across the term "Zabaitsu-ism" in the past. Either will do. Neither is Fascism.

...pls refer back to mussolini's definition..

Mussolini's definition is ambiguous. It makes no mention of the nature of the "merger". Just because Mussolini was a Fascist does not mean that every quote he ever made on the topic reflects reality. Note how many Communists claim to be Marxists.

..i suppose you necons would call it "individualism"...

And yet again your supposition flies wide of the mark.

pinky


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OfflineTheOneYouKnow
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Re: Fascism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2365112 - 02/21/04 08:49 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
dont know the exact specifics of hitler & mussolini..but i suspect that this was actually the case.. and that the argument that the state controlled industry was an attempt to discredit socialism...




"I don't know, but I'm sure that I'm right, so I'll go on with that assumption rather than looking for something that could prove me wrong" - courtesy of babelfish's libby translator


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