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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Rejection * 1
    #23567536 - 08/22/16 09:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

When our partner decides to leave us, we often become angry and resentful and feel rejected.

But isn't our anger and resentment caused by our rejection of their decision?

By saying we were "dumped", aren't we damning them for their decision? 

It's aggressive to be mad at someone when they don't conform to our desires or live up to our expectations.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #23568127 - 08/23/16 04:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Expectations are just premeditated resentments. One of the best pieces of advice I ever heard. Never depend on anyone else for anything, cause you've got everything you need in you already. It's a hard path to find that, filled with pain and loneliness, but it is the only path that I want to tread from here on out.

I'm forging my own destiny right now, and I welcome anyone who wants to join me on that path. But I will only ever hold them loosely from here on out.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinebloodsheen
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 2
    #23569957 - 08/23/16 06:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

OP, I can agree with your logic, but for fuck's sake not everyone can be a fucking spiritual guru about things. By the way you guys talk about things you think the only way we can be happy is if we sit in the middle of a dark room and meditate because causing any action creates problems.

When people do things to me I don't like I get sad and angry. Its called being a human. If you can turn all of that off you're either a quasi-sociopath to begin with or a passionless person that I want to have nothing to do with


--------------------


A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Rejection [Re: bloodsheen] * 1
    #23571002 - 08/23/16 10:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not claiming I'm not reactive and don't feel hurt and rejected sometimes. I do.

But I've carried grudges for many years. I don't think bitter resentment is a mandatory part of being human.

I believe years of passionate bitter resentment is pathological. There are people I'd like to see in the grave. 

Back to the general subject for a moment . . .

It's interesting how when we're rejected it hurts a lot, even if we don't feel much desire for who rejects us.

Like if a partner we aren't really into breaks up with us, we can feel very hurt.

I was once fired from a job I hated like Hell, and even though I was so glad to escape
the toxic environment, being fired still haunts me a lot, almost 10 years later.

I assume it's ego that creates hurt feelings of rejection.

Consider that people sometimes kill after a breakup or being fired.

I suspect ego is the prime player in most murders of passion.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: bloodsheen]
    #23571640 - 08/24/16 02:49 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bloodsheen said:
for fuck's sake not everyone can be a fucking spiritual guru
~
you're either a quasi-sociopath to begin with or a passionless person that I want to have nothing to do with



Of course they can. They just have to choose that path and work at it, and it has nothing to do with the conclusions you jump to in the second sentence of yours I quoted.

I will agree that it is no easy task, and that our culture will try and divert you from it at every opportunity for obvious reasons.

But your anger seems unreasonable given the fact that OP and I have experienced heart crushing pain, sadness, and loneliness and come close to ending it all in order to learn these things. It's not like anyone here is gloating, no man is better than any other. Rather, as is often the case, communicating the lessons you have learned, written or verbally, helps to solidify them in ones mind.

Please, show try and some compassion rather than anger bloodsheen. We're here to help each other in this place, not persecute one another.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinebloodsheen
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 2
    #23572317 - 08/24/16 09:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

My anger is only because I've been hearing this rhetoric a lot on the shroomery lately it seems.

So what if your whole family died? Life is a transient thing, you have to accept what you cannot control, blah blah blah

Its unbelievably unrealistic to expect even 1% of the population to be able to attain anything even close to acceptance of their entire family being killed. I use that as an extreme example to make a point

I've never even had a death bother me as much as a breakup, so from my point of view its actually worse. Its way beyond rejection, its a judgement of everything you represent as a human being from somebody who actually knew you pretty well. Rejection is being turned down by a girl who you had a crush on, being dumped is like having acid poured on your soul.


--------------------


A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: bloodsheen]
    #23573372 - 08/24/16 04:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bloodsheen said:
I've never even had a death bother me as much as a breakup, so from my point of view its actually worse.



Which, if you actually think about it, is an unbelievably selfish POV. Imagine how many more people are in heart crushing pain and agony over a death of someone they love than you are over a breakup?

Is it possible that it's you that is actually the 'quasi-sociopath or (com)passionless person' here?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Offlinebloodsheen
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23574188 - 08/24/16 08:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

bloodsheen said:
I've never even had a death bother me as much as a breakup, so from my point of view its actually worse.



Which, if you actually think about it, is an unbelievably selfish POV. Imagine how many more people are in heart crushing pain and agony over a death of someone they love than you are over a breakup?

Is it possible that it's you that is actually the 'quasi-sociopath or (com)passionless person' here?



Oh, I did say that a little casually, I've never really had anyone close to me die. My father had his leg amputated a few years ago and that was an unbelievably emotional time in my life, he came very close to dying and his recovery was kind of exceptionally difficult.

I really meant to point out that how a person reacts to things is their own cross to bear. I've been effectively rejected by my extended family and I couldn't give two motherfucking shits less about it. Some people spend their whole lives living up to the expectations of their family. Pain is pain, and I think to minimalize it by saying bullshit like "But isn't our anger and resentment caused by our rejection of their decision?" is unfair. Its dehumanizing and condescending


--------------------


A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Rejection [Re: bloodsheen]
    #23574521 - 08/24/16 11:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bloodsheen said:
OP, I can agree with your logic, but for fuck's sake not everyone can be a fucking spiritual guru about things. By the way you guys talk about things you think the only way we can be happy is if we sit in the middle of a dark room and meditate because causing any action creates problems.

When people do things to me I don't like I get sad and angry. Its called being a human. If you can turn all of that off you're either a quasi-sociopath to begin with or a passionless person that I want to have nothing to do with




Very well said.  :thumbup:


I don't necessarily advocate getting sad and angry at someone for rejecting you, but I have grown weary of hearing advice such as "you have everything you need within you", and it seems like it's almost grown to the point of cliche.

I guess this is directed more at @Jokeshopbeard since he's the one who said it.  You speak of "forging your own path", one that you acknowledge is filled with pain and loneliness, but then you invite others to follow you on that path which seems to indicate that you have trouble dealing with that loneliness.

I'm in my mid-twenties and have been single my entire life, so maybe some would argue that my opinion doesn't count but living life alone is not the way to go.

The only thing you really have in this world is people:  family, friends, acquaintances, allies, etc.


--------------------
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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23574975 - 08/25/16 03:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Have a read of this CT, if you would like to understand how I gained this perspective from a little better. You have me very much out of context, we have had very different paths in life and my life is by no means 'filled with pain and loneliness'. There have been bouts of it, as there is for every human, but perhaps this is the time where that becomes no more:

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I resent the idea that we need anyone to make us feel 'whole'. I feel like it's culturally programmed BS. Sure, it's great being with a partner. I have been in and out of relationships since I was 15 (32 now) with my first long term at 18. After that ended 4 years later, I never gave up the search to find someone to be with.

Interestingly, it was only when I was NOT looking (was already with someone I'd gone looking for) at 27, that I met the woman who irrevocably changed my life in ways I could never have even dreamed of (I found both god and unconditional love through her) and I thought I would be with her for the rest of my days after the first night we spent together. At present, she's been in rehab for 13 months and has cut all contact with me. I've had to emotionally detach from her and accept that I could never take her back in order to allow myself to heal - it was the only thing I could do to stop the incredibly self destructive and overwhelming pain I've been in for the last 12 months.

I went a bit nuts after all the shit she caused before she left (violence, suicide attempts, and an infidelity, to name but a few) and jumped back in to dating women, even going all out polyamorous for a time. It wasn't actually intentional, I intended to wait for her, but an accidental fuck when very drunk lead to the floodgates opening. It was a part of my healing, and great having multiple sexually experienced and some very compatible partners, but it was OH SO hollow. I cut it all out a couple of months and several women later.

I since committed myself to celibacy for a period of 6 months, which just finished, but it is a path I fully intend on remaining on. I will never go looking for love/sex/a partner again. I know in my heart of hearts it will only be a distraction.

What I really need to find, above all else, it total peace, love, and happiness with MYSELF.

It's a fucking lonely path at times, I'll tell you that, but it is the most rewarding path I have walked since becoming 'relationship obsessed' at 18. I am happier in my own company than ever before. I laugh and just enjoy 'me' so much. I've discussed this path with a few people I consider extremely spiritually enlightened, and they have all said the same thing; 'walk this path, learn complete happiness and wholeness within yourself, and the person who will bring you everything you desire in another WILL find you'.

My lower, pleasure obsessed self kicks back against this message. HARD. I'm a massive hedonist, I LOVE being with women, and I'm a very sexual creature, and I know I could be out there fulfilling my desires with absolute ease (Tinder, anyone?). But my higher self knows the words above, that those I most respect have shared with me, to be true. I must be strong, I must be brave, and above all, I must be patient and committed to what I know is right.

I know it will bring rewards greater than I could even dream of.

It's a perspective worth consideration, if nothing else. Good luck doing the right thing for you OP.



Source

I have a ton of friends, and I'm a very sociable person. I could not make it without people. But that's not what we're talking about here AFAIK. I stand by what I said and agree with RJ Tubs completely. Maybe it does sound cliche to you, lots of things in this life that make total sense do IMO. Do you feel it is because they don't make total sense, or is there some other reason?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23575730 - 08/25/16 11:01 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I kinda knew that you would accuse me of taking your original statement out of context (no negativity meant by using the word "accuse", I just couldn't think of a better word) because I didn't think I phrased it well.  I'm not generally good with words, and I think bloodsheen articulated most of what I wanted to say pretty well anyways.  But I will try to better clarify what I think on this after reading your post.

It seems that me and you have opposite experiences on relationships, so part of our disagreement could be a "grass is greener" type of thing.  Additionally you are older than me so maybe there is some wisdom I am missing out on here. 


To begin, you might say the same about me, but I think that your perspective is at least partially based upon your subjective experiences.  You met a woman that you were in love with and were given no option but to let her go and find closure.  You also spent most of your life obsessing over relationships.  This is likely a large factor behind your decision to live a life alone and find peace/happiness within yourself, etc.  For one, it would be a new experience to you, and it would also give you some relief from what sounds like a crazy-filled life for the past few years.  So all-in-all, I view your philosophy as being reactionary to your own experiences - which is fine, but that doesn't mean that that attitude will work for everyone.


Another thing about your post that seems to indicate we're not on the same page is your emphasis on sexuality and your own hedonism.  You talk about how your lower self could be out there having all kinds of sex.  When I speak of having relationships I am not significantly thinking of sex at all.  I am talking about having someone that you love - which I am sure you mean as well - but it's easier to sell the path that you're traveling on when you frame it as a mere abstinence from hedonism, and ignore that it is also a denial of relationships and deeper love.


To clarify, I understand that you are not promoting a complete abstinence from relationships and love, but you say things like this:
Quote:


walk this path, learn complete happiness and wholeness within yourself, and the person who will bring you everything you desire in another WILL find you'.




This is one of the ideas with which I dissent the most.  This wisdom seems very cliche and superstitious.  I don't think there's some supernatural force out there that is waiting to connect you with your soulmate, just as soon as you prove that you can find happiness without a soulmate.  To find and connect with someone you love, you have to actually go out in the world and find that person.  They're not just going to be carted over to you by fate/karma.  You're not going to have the motivation do that if you've convinced yourself that you have found happiness within yourself.  You're just going to sit back, assuming that some cosmic order will bring them to you eventually once you've proven yourself worthy and you're just going to end up living alone for the rest of your life.


Lastly, I think that people who claim to have found happiness within themselves are often in-denial and are lying to themselves.  They might feel "at peace" but being at peace does not equate to fulfillment. 


I have a friend who was depressed about life for awhile, until he started reading about and studying Buddhism.  Since he did this, he claims to have "let go" and found peace, happiness, etc.  But it seems like an empty happiness.  I sense that deep down he is using this philosophy as an excuse to mask his lack of fulfillment by becoming detached from it.


I suspect that a lot of people with your attitude on this subject are in a similar position.  You detach yourselves, then claim to have found some sort of spiritual/philosophical enlightenment that has helped you find peace and happiness within yourselves to mask the detachment.  On the surface it might feel like peace and happiness to you, but it is an empty kind of happiness that lacks true fulfillment.


The friend I mentioned earlier doesn't have a job, hasn't been in a serious relationship for a long time, and also misses out on many things we would consider normal life experiences because he claims his goal is to minimize suffering (a part of his Buddhist philosophy) but in doing so, I feel he is missing out on life because he is afraid to suffer.  He too is using Buddhism as a philosophical "excuse" to mask the true nature of his detachment.


As I said before, I have been my entire life without a relationship, and so perhaps I'm biased in this but I still think that I'm onto something.  At one point I convinced myself that I would never find anyone and that I should just find solace, happiness within myself, etc.  And for a time I convinced myself that I had achieved such a thing only to find out later that it was a lie.



To summarize, I guess what I am trying to say is I think detachment is the wrong way to go.  I think people sometimes use cliche bits of wisdom like "finding happiness within yourself" as a way to hide what it really is.  I think it's more natural, healthier and human to become attached to people.  Sure you may have to let go of them at some point as people come and go.  But finding true happiness alone is artificial and empty, and you're just going to die alone because no cosmic order is magically going to drop someone who is perfect for you into your lap.


Sorry for the obscenely long post.


--------------------
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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23575835 - 08/25/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

No worries, I will agree to disagree with you here.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineChakra Shock
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Re: Rejection [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23576951 - 08/25/16 05:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Another problem with sadness and anger is that they tend to give rise to negative reactions instead of positive action.

However, I feel what Bloodsheen says as well. Ideals are great to strive for, but the place to start with that is the present moment, and in this present moment there are few if any of us who are impervious to feeling sadness or anger.

For example, I recently got jilted in a bad way, like ignored for about a week straight, finally made plans, had to remake those plans, then on the day that those plans were meant to take place ( discussed pretty specifically and confirmed ) I was ignored all day like I'm not even a real human being. Does that piss me off? Yes, indeed it does. Do I want to act out of anger? No, because it will only cause more pain.

So what I'm doing is recognizing my feelings, knowing that there is sadness, anger, disappointment, but I'm just letting them pass through me. I'm not going to do anything to exacerbate them, and I'll just chill out and take it easy until I've got my feet back on the ground. Once I'm clear and calm, I'll make a decision on what to do next.


Rejection is just tough because it's a long term predicament. Once the initial feelings have resided, though, it's best to not linger on them and accept reality as it is and let it go.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system Flag
Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler] * 1
    #23577343 - 08/25/16 07:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
Ideals are great to strive for, but the place to start with that is the present moment, and in this present moment there are few if any of us who are impervious to feeling sadness or anger.



I hear ya, it will always be like this, I'm sure. I'm under no illusion that there's any kind of total 'freedom' from the human condition. It could never be 100% anything, it's not in our nature. But with each successive wound, can we not continue, through practice in healing, and re-adjustment of viewpoint, to reach greater levels of objectivity?

When I see people saying things like this:

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
I have a friend who was depressed about life for awhile, until he started reading about and studying Buddhism.  Since he did this, he claims to have "let go" and found peace, happiness, etc.  But it seems like an empty happiness.  I sense that deep down he is using this philosophy as an excuse to mask his lack of fulfillment by becoming detached from it.



I just can't help but feel, you have no concept of what is achievable in this life. The lessons to teach us how to live as ideally as we can in this human realm have existed for 2,500+ years. Yet we're so fucking distracted from what we're capable of, for reasons so beyond fucking obvious I cannot bring myself to express them.

When you meet someone, for the first time, who embodies such a near state of 'awakening' to the objective state of our existence, you feel them stare into your soul, and feel the energy from them like a wave. When you meet people that bring you closer to that state through their simply being there in your life. When you spend years seeking connection, practising, meditating, exploring every aspect of 'being'. You get a feel for this thing when you push the boundaries hard.

I don't pretend to understand it, but I'm a pretty well travelled man in this world and I've met and known humans who, to me, seem to really have figured this 'life' thing out. They all share something in common. I'm trying to forge my own path to understanding what that it. I listen to everyone, and compile the views of those who seem most at peace in this existence.

And they just happen to coincide with OP.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineChakra Shock
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Registered: 02/22/13
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23577364 - 08/25/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, absolutely. Each time we go around the next bend, we gain a little bit of a steadier ride, given that we're working on our driving skills.

The wounds which we incur from our relationships are opportunities to become stronger, wiser and more compassionate.

I too have felt waves of energy from people, felt that there was a merging of souls. Currently, it's almost overwhelming how many people I have in my life who have sent me some kind of direct transference of energy, be it through emotion or some nuanced perspective, or simply a wave of heat rushing from my head to my toes.

There are definitely people who have figured out that enlightenment is happening in the present moment, so long as we show up for it and take the ride.

That darn old human condition though :P always meandering and getting tripped up on 'me, me, me' 'want, want, want'. Om.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #23577384 - 08/25/16 07:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
The wounds which we incur from our relationships are opportunities to become stronger, wiser and more compassionate.



I's say these are the GREATEST opportunities. I believe the closest of human relationships are the most important thing in this world.

And that being the case, and being that none will ever last forever, does it not make sense to drive towards the understanding expressed in OP?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineChakra Shock
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Registered: 02/22/13
Posts: 2,514
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Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #23577416 - 08/25/16 07:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I completely agree. It's refreshing to hear this, especially right now when I feel that I have been treated poorly by someone very close to me. Trying to understand them and feeling compassion for them is the best thing I can do, hands down. Self-righteous anger is just gonna lead me in a downward spiral.


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23577485 - 08/25/16 07:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
I have a friend who was depressed about life for awhile, until he started reading about and studying Buddhism.  Since he did this, he claims to have "let go" and found peace, happiness, etc.  But it seems like an empty happiness.  I sense that deep down he is using this philosophy as an excuse to mask his lack of fulfillment by becoming detached from it.



I just can't help but feel, you have no concept of what is achievable in this life. The lessons to teach us how to live as ideally as we can in this human realm have existed for 2,500+ years. Yet we're so fucking distracted from what we're capable of, for reasons so beyond fucking obvious I cannot bring myself to express them.

When you meet someone, for the first time, who embodies such a near state of 'awakening' to the objective state of our existence, you feel them stare into your soul, and feel the energy from them like a wave. When you meet people that bring you closer to that state through their simply being there in your life. When you spend years seeking connection, practising, meditating, exploring every aspect of 'being'. You get a feel for this thing when you push the boundaries hard.

I don't pretend to understand it, but I'm a pretty well travelled man in this world and I've met and known humans who, to me, seem to really have figured this 'life' thing out. They all share something in common. I'm trying to forge my own path to understanding what that it. I listen to everyone, and compile the views of those who seem most at peace in this existence.

And they just happen to coincide with OP.





I feel that you are being very vague on certain things.  What is the "ideal" way to live?  Is "ideal" not subjective?  Do ancient philosophies and traditions automatically have the right knowledge on how to live an ideal life simply virtue of their age? 

I'm open-minded and can welcome advice and criticism on how I am living my own life wrong, but it seems like you are just telling me that there's knowledge I don't possess, and you won't tell me what that knowledge is.  That naturally makes some people skeptical.

You say that we're distracted by obvious things - by what?  Cliches like television and social media? 

I just think that some of the things mentioned by OP resemble detachment and I don't think there's anything wrong with the human condition, nor any reason to try and escape it.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23577857 - 08/25/16 10:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

As I said before, I've no desire to debate the topic with you CT. Sorry. I just agree to disagree with you.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23577868 - 08/25/16 10:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:


Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
I have a friend who was depressed about life for awhile, until he started reading about and studying Buddhism.  Since he did this, he claims to have "let go" and found peace, happiness, etc.  But it seems like an empty happiness.  I sense that deep down he is using this philosophy as an excuse to mask his lack of fulfillment by becoming detached from it.



I just can't help but feel, you have no concept of what is achievable in this life. The lessons to teach us how to live as ideally as we can in this human realm have existed for 2,500+ years. Yet we're so fucking distracted from what we're capable of, for reasons so beyond fucking obvious I cannot bring myself to express them.

When you meet someone, for the first time, who embodies such a near state of 'awakening' to the objective state of our existence, you feel them stare into your soul, and feel the energy from them like a wave. When you meet people that bring you closer to that state through their simply being there in your life. When you spend years seeking connection, practising, meditating, exploring every aspect of 'being'. You get a feel for this thing when you push the boundaries hard.

I don't pretend to understand it, but I'm a pretty well travelled man in this world and I've met and known humans who, to me, seem to really have figured this 'life' thing out. They all share something in common. I'm trying to forge my own path to understanding what that it. I listen to everyone, and compile the views of those who seem most at peace in this existence.

And they just happen to coincide with OP.





You said that and then you replied with this.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23577895 - 08/25/16 10:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I was using it as example in my reply to CS. Apologies for the confusion.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23577920 - 08/25/16 10:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You said...

Quote:


I just can't help but feel, you have no concept of what is achievable in this life





...after quoting my post.  This made it very easy to interpret "You" as a reference to me.  I don't know why you would use a quote by me to explain why you think another person has no concept of something.

Anyways I can tell this is a pretty useless conversation so I'll end it at that.


--------------------
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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler] * 1
    #23578290 - 08/26/16 01:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:

I just think that some of the things mentioned by OP resemble detachment . . .




Attachment to our thoughts creates various types of neurosis, such as anxiety and depression.
Non-attachment doesn't mean one isn't engaged. Quite the opposite. When we become non-attached
we can then fully and intimately engage with others, without pretense, motives, or judgments.

In the Bible, the famous 23rd Psalm encourages non-attachment to desire... "Thou shall not want."
In Christian faith, agape love is unconditional compassion that's detached from selfish feelings.
The New Testament is full of references to non-attachment. Many consider Christ's crucifixion symbolic
of non-attachment to the ego (death of self). When Jesus said "Take up the cross and follow me",
he was promoting non-attachment. The Apostle Paul spoke a lot about the importance of dying to self.

Non-attachment is sometimes called "a state of being unstained by thought". When we look deeply into
our suffering, we find thoughts. All disturbing emotions arise from thoughts, and non-attachment is
a method of separating our self from our thoughts, so we are not harmed by them. Thought's aren't "bad",
but our attachment to them causes suffering, for example, as we can witness as we read suicide notes.

Of course our ego is totally disgusted and repulsed by these ideas.    It wants to keep it's job.


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Re: Rejection [Re: bloodsheen] * 1
    #23578358 - 08/26/16 01:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

bloodsheen said:

My anger is only because I've been hearing this rhetoric a lot on the shroomery lately it seems.

So what if your whole family died? Life is a transient thing, you have to accept what you cannot control, blah blah blah




I'm tempted to feel guilty for spreading some of this "rhetoric" but instead I will
detach myself from this thought and just let it sail by, like a cloud in the sky.

Many people believe Eastern philosophy is an escape from reality. But to look inward
is far from an escape. The source of our misery is not life. It comes from within.

As the ancient phrase goes "You are your own worst enemy"

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
Luke 23:34

You are your own worst enemy.
Proverbs 29:24


blah  blah  blah


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23578479 - 08/26/16 03:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
...after quoting my post.  This made it very easy to interpret "You" as a reference to me.  I don't know why you would use a quote by me to explain why you think another person has no concept of something.

Anyways I can tell this is a pretty useless conversation so I'll end it at that.



I do apologise for the confusion man. I've debated this kinda thing for years and it was late last night and I was tired, and I can see from your mindset about the whole thing, contrasted with my own, that we would just go round in circular arguments if we open this up for discussion. I know from past interactions that CS is far more open to such things, as evidenced above.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23578487 - 08/26/16 03:35 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Of course our ego is totally disgusted and repulsed by these ideas. It wants to keep it's job.



QFT man.


Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
As the ancient phrase goes "You are your own worst enemy"



I wonder if you're thinking of this one;

Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own thoughts, unguarded. But once mastered no one cannot help you as much, not even your father or mother.
--Buddha

As my understanding of my human condition deepens, this seems more and more apt to frequently remind myself of.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23579124 - 08/26/16 09:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
I know from past interactions that CS is far more open to such things, as evidenced above.




There's not really evidence about anything since you won't discuss it with me, instead just assuming that other people are so close-minded that they won't give consideration to what you have to say.  That makes you seem close-minded yourself and somewhat patronizing.


--------------------
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InvisibleCelestial Traveler
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Re: Rejection [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23579144 - 08/26/16 09:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:

I just think that some of the things mentioned by OP resemble detachment . . .




Attachment to our thoughts creates various types of neurosis, such as anxiety and depression.
Non-attachment doesn't mean one isn't engaged. Quite the opposite. When we become non-attached
we can then fully and intimately engage with others, without pretense, motives, or judgments.
.




I have had similar realizations before under the influence of drugs, but under a sober state it is hard to achieve a complete separation from your thoughts (unless you want to say that such a thing is achievable through meditation, but that would take lots of practice even if it were possible).

I didn't try to say that attachment is desirable, but that it's human and natural, and that many who think they're detached are still attached but in-denial deep down.  I think it's especially hard to become detached from human relationships because those are usually the foundation to one's life.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23579512 - 08/26/16 11:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
Lastly, I think that people who claim to have found happiness within themselves are often in-denial and are lying to themselves. They might feel "at peace" but being at peace does not equate to fulfillment.




Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
many who think they're detached are still attached but in-denial deep down.




.........

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:
That makes you seem close-minded yourself and somewhat patronizing.




Pot calling the kettle black huh? The beliefs you have stated above are why I have no intention of spending what little free time I have engaged in circular arguments. I've been there before, many, many times. If you were to display a smidgen more open-mindedness than comes through in your posts, I would happily discuss it with you, but I have to use my time as best as I see fit. This is not a judgement call on your character, I've been round the houses in what I believe in my life and you are, and will progress to, where you see fit.

This is a judgement call as to how I spend my time, and I have apologised numerous times. If you wish to remain disgruntled about this, that's your call.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23580548 - 08/26/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm not disgruntled about it, I just like to call people out to fully explain themselves when I feel there's holes in their reasoning.

In addition to talking about detachment from personal relationships, you made reference to this:
Quote:


I just can't help but feel, you have no concept of what is achievable in this life. The lessons to teach us how to live as ideally as we can in this human realm have existed for 2,500+ years. Yet we're so fucking distracted from what we're capable of, for reasons so beyond fucking obvious I cannot bring myself to express them.





I would be open-minded and curious enough to hear you elaborate on what this deep knowledge is that I'm missing.  If you would be kind enough to tell me of course, and if said knowledge actually exists in the first place.


But alas, as you've said many times before, this argument is over, so there's no need for you to reply further unless you feel the need to prove something.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23580580 - 08/26/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

And that's the thing man, YOU feel there are holes in my reasoning, I do not. Nor do I feel there are holes in your reasoning. I accept you exactly as you are.

We're both at very different stages of development is all. I once felt exactly as you seem to. But many experiences in the years since have blown my head off to the point that my inner skeptic has fuck all left to stand on. And believe you me, there was a time where I was one of the most skeptical people I've ever known.

I can't properly convey the enormity and life-changing effects of these experiences to you (if I could I would). I can only hope that you have similar experiences yourself.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23580634 - 08/26/16 03:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm sorry but I think I'm going to stop replying now, because I've found nothing that you've said on this entire thread to have any value whatsoever.  I don't say that out of anger or disgrunted-ness but out of blunt honesty. 

Basically you've said is that there are things I don't understand, and that you won't tell what they are because I'm not open-minded enough to give them consideration, which comes off as a stalling tactic to cover up the fact that you don't actually know anything, and also a potential attempt at passive-aggressive condescension. 

But anyways it doesn't matter, because interacting you is not worth either of our time, but especially my time.  Anyways good luck.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeard
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23580695 - 08/26/16 04:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Like I said man, sometimes it's just best to agree to disagree.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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Re: Rejection [Re: Chakra Shock]
    #23585717 - 08/28/16 01:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chakra Shock said:
Another problem with sadness and anger is that they tend to give rise to negative reactions instead of positive action.

However, I feel what Bloodsheen says as well. Ideals are great to strive for, but the place to start with that is the present moment, and in this present moment there are few if any of us who are impervious to feeling sadness or anger.

For example, I recently got jilted in a bad way, like ignored for about a week straight, finally made plans, had to remake those plans, then on the day that those plans were meant to take place ( discussed pretty specifically and confirmed ) I was ignored all day like I'm not even a real human being. Does that piss me off? Yes, indeed it does. Do I want to act out of anger? No, because it will only cause more pain.

So what I'm doing is recognizing my feelings, knowing that there is sadness, anger, disappointment, but I'm just letting them pass through me. I'm not going to do anything to exacerbate them, and I'll just chill out and take it easy until I've got my feet back on the ground. Once I'm clear and calm, I'll make a decision on what to do next.


Rejection is just tough because it's a long term predicament. Once the initial feelings have resided, though, it's best to not linger on them and accept reality as it is and let it go.




It sounds exactly like my so called friend did to me a while back.  I really needed his help, we agreed he would, I rented a moving van and drove 700 miles thinking he would be there for me.  No, he just ignored me all day then claimed later he had a surfers ear ache whatever the fuck that is.

Well, I've never forgotten that episode, and it destroyed any chance of ever trusting this person again.  I still pretend to be his friend, but to me a friend is someone that you can trust, not know will pimp you in time of need.

So my advice would be to choose your friends wisely, and you won't be "rejected".  After all, who can really reject you but you?  You put yourself in a vulnerable position, you got what you deserved.  Don't open up to pimps and that won't happen...


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Re: Rejection [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23589016 - 08/29/16 02:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I hate this shit it has already ruined a friendship I had with a girl once because she started getting all flirty with me and I did not make a move. I guess she felt I rejected her and after that she became kind of cold to me.

Now theres this other girl who has become a really good friend of mine.

Shes very pretty (evreyone wants her), well last night we went out together and when we were alone together she told me that she was looking to pull (Irish term for sex or just making out) and she started telling me what are the things she finds sexy, she then asked me if I'm into blondes (She is blonde) and asked me If I'm into her.

I hope me not making a move makes her feel rejected, we have a great thing goinh on.

I guess I'm not sexually aggressive since I started my sex life with prostitutes, at 19 I was calling whores and going to Chinese massage parlors like 3 times a week.


--------------------
"be a child, never be an adult al the problems of the world are made by the adults."

"If a child feels like laughing he just laughs and it doesn't matter for him if others know why he laughs or not."

By Rael


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Re: Rejection [Re: Nolan92]
    #23590797 - 08/29/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nolan92 said:
I hate this shit it has already ruined a friendship I had with a girl once because she started getting all flirty with me and I did not make a move. I guess she felt I rejected her and after that she became kind of cold to me.

Now theres this other girl who has become a really good friend of mine.

Shes very pretty (evreyone wants her), well last night we went out together and when we were alone together she told me that she was looking to pull (Irish term for sex or just making out) and she started telling me what are the things she finds sexy, she then asked me if I'm into blondes (She is blonde) and asked me If I'm into her.

I hope me not making a move makes her feel rejected, we have a great thing goinh on.

I guess I'm not sexually aggressive since I started my sex life with prostitutes, at 19 I was calling whores and going to Chinese massage parlors like 3 times a week.



Holy shit dude... uh yea man, pretty sure she felt rejected, she fucking threw herself at you!

Its so funny, I was just talking to a guy at work about this. I don't know how to get a first date. I overthink it and end up saying weird stupid things to girls. Plus I'm not very attractive, which isn't everything but its a nice ice breaker. But like, once you're on a date and having a great time and being flirty, I can't WAIT to start being physical with her. It takes serious control to keep my hands to myself once I realize shes into me. Apparently I'm in the minority from what I've read in forums and in talking to people.

I don't get it, just slowly but confidently... do something. Like pretty much anything, even just putting your fingers in her hair and touching the side of her face or something. It won't take her more than half a second to figure out whats going on, who cares about a half-second of "Hey, woah..."

What I can't believe are people who have the fucking balls to go after someone based on almost nothing. Like picking up a girl at the beach, how the fuck do guys manage that? You're just walking around, see a hot girl, and 6 hours later you're fucking her brains out. Insanity, the fucking balls you have to have to even try something like that, THEN to have all the coolness to back it up... Just nuts


--------------------


A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog


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OfflineChakra Shock
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Re: Rejection [Re: bloodsheen]
    #23590983 - 08/29/16 05:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I think approaching people in public comes down to someone's state of mind, and there are a few different approaches which I've noticed.

These apply for women as well, it's just that men are sort of burdened by nature and nurture with the 'duty' of initiating contact:

There's the overconfident, strong-headed guy who will approach women simply because he feels like that's what he's expected to do, or has to do to in order to find someone to fool around with.

Then there's the smooth talker, the one who can strike up witty conversations and grab someone's attention with words.

And then there are the romantics, the ones who simply can't help themselves, they work primarily off of inspiration.


None of these approaches are necessarily right or wrong, but the underlying energy of your mind and thoughts, translating into emotion, will significantly impact whether or not you're doing something worthwhile or good by approaching strangers in a casual, social way. It helps for me to 'unask the question' on the sexualization of women and focus instead on innocence. This approach is certainly not optimal for finding as many partners as you can handle, but it has been a bridge into relationships and positive interaction.

As far as flirting in a public place goes, though, I think that's a kind of aggressive attitude which is really only acceptable once there has been some kind of confirmation from the other person that flirting and promiscuity is at least on the table. The cues of sexuality can be really subtle, so it's best to make a blatant display of your intention. Not so blatant that it makes them feel uncomfortable or embarrassed, but a simple gesture or phrase that implies the question: "do you want to flirt with me?" is a good place to start before actually flirting. It could even be a look in your eyes, a certain straightforwardness with your smile, or saying something about appearances. Just read their body language and expression after that, and if they seem closed off or uncomfortable, then stop right there and either move along or invite a change to the tone of your conversation!

Interesting stuff... takes a lot of confidence and courage to put yourself out there like that.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Rejection [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #23591054 - 08/29/16 06:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:

Your worst enemy cannot harm you as much as your own thoughts, unguarded. But once mastered no one cannot help you as much, not even your father or mother.
--Buddha





I'm tempted to feel uncool because I didn't know what "QFT" meant and had to look it up  :smile:

There are numerous versions of the concept. That's a great quote!

Consider how we commonly define ourselves by our history and by our experiences. We all proclaim,
"I've been though a lot" as if our past determines who we are. We all have a "story" that we think
defines us. Our story is our version of reality. It the ego's way of creating self-identification. But are
we really our "story"? Who would we be without our story? So much of our thinking is about our story.
We damn people who wronged us. We justify and validate ourselves, as we replay the fantasy.

We often live in a dream like trance. Lost in the wilderness of the mind.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Rejection [Re: Celestial Traveler]
    #23591095 - 08/29/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Celestial Traveler said:

I have had similar realizations before under the influence of drugs, but under a sober state it is hard to achieve a complete separation from your thoughts (unless you want to say that such a thing is achievable through meditation, but that would take lots of practice even if it were possible).




I'm only talking about non-attachment to thoughts. Not people.

It takes as much effort to notice our thoughts as watching the clouds drift by.

It's not necessary to meditate to be mindful of our thoughts. A kid can do it.
Mindfulness is used to treat children who suffer from anxiety, autism, and depression.

It's simply a way to learn about reactivity. The thoughts that create our emotional disturbances.


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Re: Rejection [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #23591130 - 08/29/16 06:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LunarEclipse said:

Well, I've never forgotten that episode, and it destroyed any chance of ever trusting this person again.  I still pretend to be his friend, but to me a friend is someone that you can trust . . .




We all let our friends and loved ones down at some point.

To become bitter about others not living up to our expectations is the road to hell.

Have you never let a friend down and didn't come thru for them?


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OfflineNolan92
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Re: Rejectiont [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #23592666 - 08/30/16 08:17 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Its great shes not a total bitch and I might be friendzonned but I dont give a fuck shes really fun to hang out with.

There is sexual tension still though, last night she asked me to dance with her on the speaker and shit the grinding and all the side glances.

Im deft not gay, but have zero confidence and prefer sex with prostitutes. I dont see myself as handsome.

I hope she hooks up with a guy but she keeps rejecting all the dudes who are hitting on her since there all total creeps.

I might have to give them some advice since she told me what she finds sexy


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"be a child, never be an adult al the problems of the world are made by the adults."

"If a child feels like laughing he just laughs and it doesn't matter for him if others know why he laughs or not."

By Rael


Edited by Nolan92 (08/30/16 08:25 AM)


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Offlinebloodsheen
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Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 7,659
Last seen: 4 years, 14 days
Re: Rejectiont [Re: Nolan92]
    #23594268 - 08/30/16 04:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Nolan92 said:
Its great shes not a total bitch and I might be friendzonned but I dont give a fuck shes really fun to hang out with.

There is sexual tension still though, last night she asked me to dance with her on the speaker and shit the grinding and all the side glances.

Im deft not gay, but have zero confidence and prefer sex with prostitutes. I dont see myself as handsome.

I hope she hooks up with a guy but she keeps rejecting all the dudes who are hitting on her since there all total creeps.

I might have to give them some advice since she told me what she finds sexy



Id rather you be gay because it means you're sane. None of this post makes sense


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A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog


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OfflineNolan92
Stranger
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Registered: 06/05/16
Posts: 407
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
Re: Rejectiont [Re: bloodsheen]
    #23596354 - 08/31/16 04:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I dont like gays there such fuckin creepers well the ones that hit on me are.

Well who knows I might find some guy or just stick to prostitutes my whole life and maybe marry one when I'm a bit old.

Plus you can get more threesomes with prostitutes


--------------------
"be a child, never be an adult al the problems of the world are made by the adults."

"If a child feels like laughing he just laughs and it doesn't matter for him if others know why he laughs or not."

By Rael


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