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Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,016 Loc: USA Last seen: 16 hours, 20 minutes |
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When our partner decides to leave us, we often become angry and resentful and feel rejected.
But isn't our anger and resentment caused by our rejection of their decision? By saying we were "dumped", aren't we damning them for their decision? It's aggressive to be mad at someone when they don't conform to our desires or live up to our expectations.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Expectations are just premeditated resentments. One of the best pieces of advice I ever heard. Never depend on anyone else for anything, cause you've got everything you need in you already. It's a hard path to find that, filled with pain and loneliness, but it is the only path that I want to tread from here on out.
I'm forging my own destiny right now, and I welcome anyone who wants to join me on that path. But I will only ever hold them loosely from here on out. -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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ChemChaplin Registered: 09/24/08 Posts: 7,659 Last seen: 4 years, 14 days |
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OP, I can agree with your logic, but for fuck's sake not everyone can be a fucking spiritual guru about things. By the way you guys talk about things you think the only way we can be happy is if we sit in the middle of a dark room and meditate because causing any action creates problems.
When people do things to me I don't like I get sad and angry. Its called being a human. If you can turn all of that off you're either a quasi-sociopath to begin with or a passionless person that I want to have nothing to do with -------------------- A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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Registered: 09/20/08 Posts: 6,016 Loc: USA Last seen: 16 hours, 20 minutes |
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I'm not claiming I'm not reactive and don't feel hurt and rejected sometimes. I do.
But I've carried grudges for many years. I don't think bitter resentment is a mandatory part of being human. I believe years of passionate bitter resentment is pathological. There are people I'd like to see in the grave. Back to the general subject for a moment . . . It's interesting how when we're rejected it hurts a lot, even if we don't feel much desire for who rejects us. Like if a partner we aren't really into breaks up with us, we can feel very hurt. I was once fired from a job I hated like Hell, and even though I was so glad to escape the toxic environment, being fired still haunts me a lot, almost 10 years later. I assume it's ego that creates hurt feelings of rejection. Consider that people sometimes kill after a breakup or being fired. I suspect ego is the prime player in most murders of passion.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Quote: Of course they can. They just have to choose that path and work at it, and it has nothing to do with the conclusions you jump to in the second sentence of yours I quoted. I will agree that it is no easy task, and that our culture will try and divert you from it at every opportunity for obvious reasons. But your anger seems unreasonable given the fact that OP and I have experienced heart crushing pain, sadness, and loneliness and come close to ending it all in order to learn these things. It's not like anyone here is gloating, no man is better than any other. Rather, as is often the case, communicating the lessons you have learned, written or verbally, helps to solidify them in ones mind. Please, show try and some compassion rather than anger bloodsheen. We're here to help each other in this place, not persecute one another. -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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ChemChaplin Registered: 09/24/08 Posts: 7,659 Last seen: 4 years, 14 days |
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My anger is only because I've been hearing this rhetoric a lot on the shroomery lately it seems.
So what if your whole family died? Life is a transient thing, you have to accept what you cannot control, blah blah blah Its unbelievably unrealistic to expect even 1% of the population to be able to attain anything even close to acceptance of their entire family being killed. I use that as an extreme example to make a point I've never even had a death bother me as much as a breakup, so from my point of view its actually worse. Its way beyond rejection, its a judgement of everything you represent as a human being from somebody who actually knew you pretty well. Rejection is being turned down by a girl who you had a crush on, being dumped is like having acid poured on your soul. -------------------- A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Quote: Which, if you actually think about it, is an unbelievably selfish POV. Imagine how many more people are in heart crushing pain and agony over a death of someone they love than you are over a breakup? Is it possible that it's you that is actually the 'quasi-sociopath or (com)passionless person' here? -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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ChemChaplin Registered: 09/24/08 Posts: 7,659 Last seen: 4 years, 14 days |
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Quote: Oh, I did say that a little casually, I've never really had anyone close to me die. My father had his leg amputated a few years ago and that was an unbelievably emotional time in my life, he came very close to dying and his recovery was kind of exceptionally difficult. I really meant to point out that how a person reacts to things is their own cross to bear. I've been effectively rejected by my extended family and I couldn't give two motherfucking shits less about it. Some people spend their whole lives living up to the expectations of their family. Pain is pain, and I think to minimalize it by saying bullshit like "But isn't our anger and resentment caused by our rejection of their decision?" is unfair. Its dehumanizing and condescending -------------------- A cautious young fellow named Lodge / Had seat belts installed in his Dodge. / When his date was strapped in / He committed a sin / Without even leaving the garage. That's clever, isn't it?-A boy and his dog
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Random Observer Registered: 03/03/11 Posts: 7,639 Loc: Idaho |
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Quote: Very well said. I don't necessarily advocate getting sad and angry at someone for rejecting you, but I have grown weary of hearing advice such as "you have everything you need within you", and it seems like it's almost grown to the point of cliche. I guess this is directed more at @Jokeshopbeard since he's the one who said it. You speak of "forging your own path", one that you acknowledge is filled with pain and loneliness, but then you invite others to follow you on that path which seems to indicate that you have trouble dealing with that loneliness. I'm in my mid-twenties and have been single my entire life, so maybe some would argue that my opinion doesn't count but living life alone is not the way to go. The only thing you really have in this world is people: family, friends, acquaintances, allies, etc.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Have a read of this CT, if you would like to understand how I gained this perspective from a little better. You have me very much out of context, we have had very different paths in life and my life is by no means 'filled with pain and loneliness'. There have been bouts of it, as there is for every human, but perhaps this is the time where that becomes no more:
Quote: Source I have a ton of friends, and I'm a very sociable person. I could not make it without people. But that's not what we're talking about here AFAIK. I stand by what I said and agree with RJ Tubs completely. Maybe it does sound cliche to you, lots of things in this life that make total sense do IMO. Do you feel it is because they don't make total sense, or is there some other reason? -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Random Observer Registered: 03/03/11 Posts: 7,639 Loc: Idaho |
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I kinda knew that you would accuse me of taking your original statement out of context (no negativity meant by using the word "accuse", I just couldn't think of a better word) because I didn't think I phrased it well. I'm not generally good with words, and I think bloodsheen articulated most of what I wanted to say pretty well anyways. But I will try to better clarify what I think on this after reading your post.
It seems that me and you have opposite experiences on relationships, so part of our disagreement could be a "grass is greener" type of thing. Additionally you are older than me so maybe there is some wisdom I am missing out on here. To begin, you might say the same about me, but I think that your perspective is at least partially based upon your subjective experiences. You met a woman that you were in love with and were given no option but to let her go and find closure. You also spent most of your life obsessing over relationships. This is likely a large factor behind your decision to live a life alone and find peace/happiness within yourself, etc. For one, it would be a new experience to you, and it would also give you some relief from what sounds like a crazy-filled life for the past few years. So all-in-all, I view your philosophy as being reactionary to your own experiences - which is fine, but that doesn't mean that that attitude will work for everyone. Another thing about your post that seems to indicate we're not on the same page is your emphasis on sexuality and your own hedonism. You talk about how your lower self could be out there having all kinds of sex. When I speak of having relationships I am not significantly thinking of sex at all. I am talking about having someone that you love - which I am sure you mean as well - but it's easier to sell the path that you're traveling on when you frame it as a mere abstinence from hedonism, and ignore that it is also a denial of relationships and deeper love. To clarify, I understand that you are not promoting a complete abstinence from relationships and love, but you say things like this: Quote: This is one of the ideas with which I dissent the most. This wisdom seems very cliche and superstitious. I don't think there's some supernatural force out there that is waiting to connect you with your soulmate, just as soon as you prove that you can find happiness without a soulmate. To find and connect with someone you love, you have to actually go out in the world and find that person. They're not just going to be carted over to you by fate/karma. You're not going to have the motivation do that if you've convinced yourself that you have found happiness within yourself. You're just going to sit back, assuming that some cosmic order will bring them to you eventually once you've proven yourself worthy and you're just going to end up living alone for the rest of your life. Lastly, I think that people who claim to have found happiness within themselves are often in-denial and are lying to themselves. They might feel "at peace" but being at peace does not equate to fulfillment. I have a friend who was depressed about life for awhile, until he started reading about and studying Buddhism. Since he did this, he claims to have "let go" and found peace, happiness, etc. But it seems like an empty happiness. I sense that deep down he is using this philosophy as an excuse to mask his lack of fulfillment by becoming detached from it. I suspect that a lot of people with your attitude on this subject are in a similar position. You detach yourselves, then claim to have found some sort of spiritual/philosophical enlightenment that has helped you find peace and happiness within yourselves to mask the detachment. On the surface it might feel like peace and happiness to you, but it is an empty kind of happiness that lacks true fulfillment. The friend I mentioned earlier doesn't have a job, hasn't been in a serious relationship for a long time, and also misses out on many things we would consider normal life experiences because he claims his goal is to minimize suffering (a part of his Buddhist philosophy) but in doing so, I feel he is missing out on life because he is afraid to suffer. He too is using Buddhism as a philosophical "excuse" to mask the true nature of his detachment. As I said before, I have been my entire life without a relationship, and so perhaps I'm biased in this but I still think that I'm onto something. At one point I convinced myself that I would never find anyone and that I should just find solace, happiness within myself, etc. And for a time I convinced myself that I had achieved such a thing only to find out later that it was a lie. To summarize, I guess what I am trying to say is I think detachment is the wrong way to go. I think people sometimes use cliche bits of wisdom like "finding happiness within yourself" as a way to hide what it really is. I think it's more natural, healthier and human to become attached to people. Sure you may have to let go of them at some point as people come and go. But finding true happiness alone is artificial and empty, and you're just going to die alone because no cosmic order is magically going to drop someone who is perfect for you into your lap. Sorry for the obscenely long post.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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No worries, I will agree to disagree with you here.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Waxing Prophetic Registered: 02/22/13 Posts: 2,514 Loc: The Enterprise Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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Another problem with sadness and anger is that they tend to give rise to negative reactions instead of positive action.
However, I feel what Bloodsheen says as well. Ideals are great to strive for, but the place to start with that is the present moment, and in this present moment there are few if any of us who are impervious to feeling sadness or anger. For example, I recently got jilted in a bad way, like ignored for about a week straight, finally made plans, had to remake those plans, then on the day that those plans were meant to take place ( discussed pretty specifically and confirmed ) I was ignored all day like I'm not even a real human being. Does that piss me off? Yes, indeed it does. Do I want to act out of anger? No, because it will only cause more pain. So what I'm doing is recognizing my feelings, knowing that there is sadness, anger, disappointment, but I'm just letting them pass through me. I'm not going to do anything to exacerbate them, and I'll just chill out and take it easy until I've got my feet back on the ground. Once I'm clear and calm, I'll make a decision on what to do next. Rejection is just tough because it's a long term predicament. Once the initial feelings have resided, though, it's best to not linger on them and accept reality as it is and let it go.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Quote: I hear ya, it will always be like this, I'm sure. I'm under no illusion that there's any kind of total 'freedom' from the human condition. It could never be 100% anything, it's not in our nature. But with each successive wound, can we not continue, through practice in healing, and re-adjustment of viewpoint, to reach greater levels of objectivity? When I see people saying things like this: Quote: I just can't help but feel, you have no concept of what is achievable in this life. The lessons to teach us how to live as ideally as we can in this human realm have existed for 2,500+ years. Yet we're so fucking distracted from what we're capable of, for reasons so beyond fucking obvious I cannot bring myself to express them. When you meet someone, for the first time, who embodies such a near state of 'awakening' to the objective state of our existence, you feel them stare into your soul, and feel the energy from them like a wave. When you meet people that bring you closer to that state through their simply being there in your life. When you spend years seeking connection, practising, meditating, exploring every aspect of 'being'. You get a feel for this thing when you push the boundaries hard. I don't pretend to understand it, but I'm a pretty well travelled man in this world and I've met and known humans who, to me, seem to really have figured this 'life' thing out. They all share something in common. I'm trying to forge my own path to understanding what that it. I listen to everyone, and compile the views of those who seem most at peace in this existence. And they just happen to coincide with OP. -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Waxing Prophetic Registered: 02/22/13 Posts: 2,514 Loc: The Enterprise Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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Yeah, absolutely. Each time we go around the next bend, we gain a little bit of a steadier ride, given that we're working on our driving skills.
The wounds which we incur from our relationships are opportunities to become stronger, wiser and more compassionate. I too have felt waves of energy from people, felt that there was a merging of souls. Currently, it's almost overwhelming how many people I have in my life who have sent me some kind of direct transference of energy, be it through emotion or some nuanced perspective, or simply a wave of heat rushing from my head to my toes. There are definitely people who have figured out that enlightenment is happening in the present moment, so long as we show up for it and take the ride. That darn old human condition though :P always meandering and getting tripped up on 'me, me, me' 'want, want, want'. Om.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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Quote: I's say these are the GREATEST opportunities. I believe the closest of human relationships are the most important thing in this world. And that being the case, and being that none will ever last forever, does it not make sense to drive towards the understanding expressed in OP? -------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Waxing Prophetic Registered: 02/22/13 Posts: 2,514 Loc: The Enterprise Last seen: 3 years, 8 months |
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I completely agree. It's refreshing to hear this, especially right now when I feel that I have been treated poorly by someone very close to me. Trying to understand them and feeling compassion for them is the best thing I can do, hands down. Self-righteous anger is just gonna lead me in a downward spiral.
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Random Observer Registered: 03/03/11 Posts: 7,639 Loc: Idaho |
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Quote: I feel that you are being very vague on certain things. What is the "ideal" way to live? Is "ideal" not subjective? Do ancient philosophies and traditions automatically have the right knowledge on how to live an ideal life simply virtue of their age? I'm open-minded and can welcome advice and criticism on how I am living my own life wrong, but it seems like you are just telling me that there's knowledge I don't possess, and you won't tell me what that knowledge is. That naturally makes some people skeptical. You say that we're distracted by obvious things - by what? Cliches like television and social media? I just think that some of the things mentioned by OP resemble detachment and I don't think there's anything wrong with the human condition, nor any reason to try and escape it.
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Humble Student Registered: 11/30/11 Posts: 26,088 Loc: Deep in the syst |
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As I said before, I've no desire to debate the topic with you CT. Sorry. I just agree to disagree with you.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Random Observer Registered: 03/03/11 Posts: 7,639 Loc: Idaho |
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Quote: You said that and then you replied with this.
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