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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain
    #23566189 - 08/22/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

hello friends, i wanted to compare notes with other growers regarding the differences in grains from seed suppliers vs grains from baking suppliers.

Lately I have been using lots of hard white winter wheat from a seed supply company, and yesterday i picked up the same thing from a baking supply store, and it was entirely different.

here is a picture of hard red spring wheat and hard white winter wheat beside each other for comparison. the one on the left is from the baker supply place, the one on the right is seed supply (like for planting):



i have tried several kinds of seed grains with great success, only had minor problems with one batch. The seed grains are always less dry to begin with, and much dirtier. every single bag contains bugs and debris, and the grains are clearly still alive enough to easily germinate. I suppose they might be more prone to endospores too?

today i am testing some of the grain from the bakery place, and will compare. right off hand, it is much cleaner, for human consumption, and much drier. will prep as usual and see what kind of difference it makes

does anyone else have any thoughts regarding seed grains vs bakery grains? any differences, or differences in technique prescribed? any random observations to bear in mind?

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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23569074 - 08/23/16 12:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

anybody? im prepping a few types of bakery grains right now, and will share my notes for comparision


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23569108 - 08/23/16 01:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:shrug:

My vote is on the bakery shit being a bit better, for not being, perhaps intentionally, loaded with endospores, like seed can tend to be.


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: Inocuole]
    #23569127 - 08/23/16 01:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I like organic grains better because they are cleaner and easier for me to process but I don't think there is really any difference in performance between them and agricultural or feed seeds


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #23569137 - 08/23/16 01:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I've had bad experiences with some organic grains being chock full of endospores to the point that I can hardly get shit to grow on them.

Quote:

blindingleaf said:
endospores are a real thing tho, many organic crops, including grains, are treated with "bio pesticides" that include bacteria.  I'm not trying to start an argument here, b/c people should do what works for them, but for me, i like to play it safe, and soaking does not really get in the way of my life.




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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: Inocuole]
    #23569375 - 08/23/16 02:42 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, last time I had a bad batch of grains it was rye from a food co-op, I went to feed store grains from there and never looked back, particularly I like feed store milo.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: Inocuole]
    #23569685 - 08/23/16 04:48 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
:shrug:

My vote is on the bakery shit being a bit better, for not being, perhaps intentionally, loaded with endospores, like seed can tend to be.




my thoughts exactly. there is a huge difference between the seed type and baking type in terms of natural moisture content, and quite probably supports more endospores

baking grains are almost always completely dry, whereas grains right out of the plant resemble seed grains. Like the difference in a grape and a raisin

feed grains can probably fall anywhere on the spectrum, but ime they have been drier than seed grains but retain more of their natural moisture than baking grains

seems like baking grains and some feed grains would usually be ideal, though good results can certainly be had using any of these types

hydrated bakery wheat berries look a lot like the seed wheat berries, in moisture content and in shape. here are some pics for comparison:




I also grabbed some groats that were beside them at the baking store, and even before prepping there were tons of split grains. here is what it looked like after prepping:


probably just gonna throw that stuff away, since it seems pretty sticky/starchy, unless yall think it might be worth throwing in a couple of spawn bags

i have since clarified that baking store groats are not what works well for spawn, rather whole hull horse feed oats work much better, since the hull holds in water and myc loves it. apparently the whole grain feed oats are one of the most forgiving grains there is, but i think that comes by virtue of the hull (which is altogether missing in these bakery groats)



will pick up some of this to try this week

really happy with wheat berries so far, and sometimes wheat berries plus millet, and it seems like this bakery stuff is going to work even better! loving it so far


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

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Edited by c10h12n2o (08/23/16 04:53 PM)


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23569753 - 08/23/16 05:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I bet you will see faster leap off and recovery after shaking with the farm grain.


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Edited by PsilocyBen17 (08/23/16 05:12 PM)


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23570035 - 08/23/16 06:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I wonder if the farmer knows what his grain is destined for. Does he grow it differently if its intended to go to a bakery vs a feed store?


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #23570454 - 08/23/16 08:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

i don't think grows it any differently, but it's certainly processed differently. You don't see chaff in health food store wheat, but there is tons in feed grade wheat. Oysters love it.


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23570462 - 08/23/16 08:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

PsilocyBen17 said:
i don't think grows it any differently, but it's certainly processed differently. You don't see chaff in health food store wheat, but there is tons in feed grade wheat. Oysters love it.




My point....

Is it the chaff that contains endospores? Or the grain itself? I think grain is grain. If its properly prepped and sterilized, it shouldn't matter.


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: wildernessjunkie]
    #23571022 - 08/23/16 10:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
I think grain is grain. If its properly prepped and sterilized, it shouldn't matter.




I've had some grain that 2 hours at 20 psi would not kill the endospores in.  Clean healthy agar would literally not leap off onto this grain, it was so bad.  I had to throw it all out.


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: Inocuole]
    #23571087 - 08/23/16 10:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

wildernessjunkie said:
I think grain is grain. If its properly prepped and sterilized, it shouldn't matter.




I've had some grain that 2 hours at 20 psi would not kill the endospores in.  Clean healthy agar would literally not leap off onto this grain, it was so bad.  I had to throw it all out.




Was it just dirty as fuck? I know farmers are very careful to keep their feed grains dry so they dont grow molds....i wonder if grain ever gets damp before it ever makes its way to us, and if this would affect quality for mushcult.


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23571165 - 08/23/16 11:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Organic grains are washed before packing.

I would imagine most of the feed and seed stuff is just sifted.


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: PirateSwazey]
    #23572783 - 08/24/16 01:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

right, the fundamental difference is the way they are processed, ie the moisture content.

like inocuole said, some seed is actually treated with bacteria, fungi, and lots of other "proprietary" stuff. and the untreated seed grain resembles grain right out of the stalk, with very little processing

the bakery type grain has been processed in a very different way: it is most certainly washed and dried, and could be subject to other mechanical/chemical cleaning.

I would expect some amount of heat to usually be employed in the drying process, which probably renders the grain infertile, along with some microorganisms. this is probably why bakery grains usually wont sprout 

fully hydrated (soaked and simmered, as necessary) bakery grain strongly resembles seed grain in texture and firmness. this leads me to believe it might be worth experimenting with no/little soak/simmer on the seed grains, or even using them as-is. they will absorb more water during prep. but they begin around their natural water content already, which may very well be near our 70%

i think my last batch of seed grain has some tricky endospores, since the entire batch had the same yellow tint, using the same techniques as the last couple hundred alpine white jars using seed grain

though i gotta say, the bakery grain i prepped yesterday was a dream to work with: literally not 1 busted kernel, not sticky at all, free flowing. i will be inoculating them today and will see how they compare to the seed grains in terms of colonization speed, etc. I have a feeling the bakery grains are going to work better, they have been lovely so far :smile:


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23573248 - 08/24/16 03:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

how much are you paying for it?


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: PsilocyBen17]
    #23578364 - 08/26/16 01:44 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think they are both around $.40/lb, in small amounts. I am gonna buy #50 when I find something that I dig


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23578800 - 08/26/16 07:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

In your first pic, you are comparing two different grains. So, I don't really understand. Yes, they are both wheat, but not the same type of wheat.
And "the one on the right is seed supply (like for planting)" is not correct. That is wheat feed, not wheat seed. Yes, obviously it will grow if planted, but that's not what it's for.
Wheat feed is more plump, because it's used as a food source. Wheat seed is much much skinnier.


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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: azur]
    #23579472 - 08/26/16 11:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

you are exactly right about the different types of grains, i used up all the ones that were exactly the same type, so i just used what i had left for talking points

the one that i got as seed comes from a seed supply company that literally stocks hundreds of types of seeds, might very well be similar to feed but it is most definitely sold for planting. might very well be similar to some feed, but the feed i always fed the horses growing up was quite a bit drier

what are your favorite grains to use azure?


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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Re: Seed Store Grain vs Bakery Grain [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23579568 - 08/26/16 11:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I switch things up. Currently I'm using a 35% white millet and 65% wheat feed mix


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