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OfflineAlonzo
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Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad)
    #23563230 - 08/21/16 03:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I read about this on Wikipedia and found it interesting. See Antinatalism

Quote:

Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun.




Quote:

The world is ruled by the will to live; a blind, irrational force, manifested by wanting, which constantly strives to manifest itself, however, is never satisfied with its manifestations which are the cause of suffering. Existence is filled with suffering. In the world there is more pain than pleasure; happiness and the pleasure of thousands are not able to compensate for the anguish and agony of a single one, and all things considered it would be better if life had never occurred. The essence of ethical conduct is compassion and the denial of the will to live consisting in overcoming one’s own desires through asceticism. Once we deny the will to live, placing a human being in the world is a superfluous, senseless, and very questionable moral action.




Quote:

I do not understand how anyone can procreate without certain knowledge of the ultimate cosmic destination of those they bring into the world. It is beyond my comprehension that people do this. It seems to me that the sensible thing to do would be to await certain knowledge. If certain knowledge does not come (which would probably mean a knowledge shared by the entire human race), I would have thought that one would have to ask the question, "Why on Earth do I want to have children? What am I thinking of?




Buddhists say life is suffering.
Why doom a child or any being to a life on Earth?


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Alonzo]
    #23563272 - 08/21/16 03:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Is this a multiple choice, if so I'll take your second quote as my answer.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Alonzo] * 1
    #23563329 - 08/21/16 03:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Overpopulation is a crisis, and I feel most of our problems are the direct or indirect result of such a huge population straining the ecosystems of Earth.  If things are not to get worse, we need to get a handle on this.  Thing is, that's not going to happen.  The population is projected to be from ten to twelve billion human souls within fifty years from now.  This is completely unacceptable.  And yet, it is unavoidable.  We passed the point of no return many decades ago, and it's going to be hard to get to a point where all of the mouths to feed are full.  I am all for having many fewer offspring, especially in the third world, but once they're here ya gotta love 'em.

I personally plan to intentionally refrain from having children during my lifetime.  I feel it is the right thing to do.  It could indeed be argued that bringing additional souls into this hell-mess is immoral -- could easily be argued.  But this crisis is going to get worse before it gets better, and we just have to buckle up for it.  There's nothing anyone can do.


Time just to sit back and enjoy the crisis.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Alonzo]
    #23563374 - 08/21/16 04:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Alonzo said:

Quote:

I do not understand how anyone can procreate without certain knowledge of the ultimate cosmic destination of those they bring into the world.




Celibacy of monks and Nuns is an ancient practice. If they are 'good' monks and nuns they don't judge others harshly.

Hormones and genes run the show or none of us would be here. Of those who choose not to procreate, how many masturbate and fantasize? Of those who think they are choosing a relationship with a woman who isn't into having kids in her youth, how many find that when the 'biological clock starts seriously ticking' say around 30, strangely birth control measures somehow fuck up - (pun intended). Then the guy gets 'sentimental', and once again, frequently in actuality, hormones and genes run the show, not conscious intentions.

Dispassion is a hard nut to crack!


Edited by laughingdog (08/21/16 04:34 PM)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23564354 - 08/21/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I am all for having many fewer offspring, especially in the third world,




I don't think thats quite fair. Per person and in total, I think it is the inhabitants in the first world nations that consume far more (rather wastefully as it stands) food, water, labor, land, housing, etc.

[Quote] but once they're here ya gotta love 'em.




I agree with you there. There's no morale alternative.

That "life is suffering" is a truism and impossible to disprove. I see the question more as one of consent. A parent can not ask their child permission before giving birth (that is making the single most important decision to the child's existence) At current rates of declining fertility, maybe extinction or extremely rare pregnancies are our species' date (all intelligent life's fate?)


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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OfflineMental Taco
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Crumist]
    #23564415 - 08/21/16 10:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Overpopulation is a serious issue that i believe governments wont address until its too late. Weve simplified life and made it so easy that we have few limiting factors so we cheat natural selection somewhat.,,


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Crumist]
    #23564493 - 08/21/16 10:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Crumist said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
I am all for having many fewer offspring, especially in the third world,




I don't think thats quite fair. Per person and in total, I think it is the inhabitants in the first world nations that consume far more (rather wastefully as it stands) food, water, labor, land, housing, etc.

[Quote] but once they're here ya gotta love 'em.




I agree with you there. There's no morale alternative.

That "life is suffering" is a truism and impossible to disprove. I see the question more as one of consent. A parent can not ask their child permission before giving birth (that is making the single most important decision to the child's existence) At current rates of declining fertility, maybe extinction or extremely rare pregnancies are our species' date (all intelligent life's fate?)







You are right that first world people consume more resources, but the birth rate is far higher in the developing world.  Total fertility in the U.S., for example, is almost five times lower than in some African countries.  The greater strain on available resources is in the developing world, and given the horrendous environmental circumstances in most of those countries, I think it can be said that that is where the crux of the overpopulation crisis lies.  But populations are expected to rise in most places; Europe is I believe the only place where it is going to level off and decline a bit.  The matter is academic, anyway -- populations rising almost everywhere over the next fifty years spells serious doom.  The planet was simply never, ever meant to support this many humans, no matter how many tricks we have up our sleeves.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23565085 - 08/22/16 05:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I am always trying to find ways to undermine the evil greedy rotten ones who grab as much land money and all resources as they can

In their propaganda-stories over many generations they have WANTED people to procreate, and called ecstatic non-procreational sensuality and sexuality the most heinous sin. In fact sin in Hebrew actually means 'missing the mark'~~~sexually this would refer to the male sperm being shed away from 'where it is intended'!

They WANT their slaves to procreate because...? because they want continuous slaves to maintain their civilizations. A 'work force', and mindless soldiers.

Notice that although, as said above, birth rates in the 'modern' world have decreased, the same elites know they can create hellish conditions and beliefs in the 'developing' world to make sure their increase, and then see to it they can both exploit the people there and influx these slaves into the regions with the low birth rates making sure to keep their slaves popping out

Ancient Gnostic sects were against procreation because they believed that the world, and nature was evil and itself was made by an evil demiurge to entrap us, and so they did not want to give birth to entrap more spirits

But for me, IF you want kids, the most intelligent thing is to REALLY educate yourselves and share this knowledge with your children so more and more of us can undermine this matrix once and for all


Edited by zzripz (08/22/16 05:38 AM)


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23565415 - 08/22/16 09:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:


You are right that first world people consume more resources, but the birth rate is far higher in the developing world.  Total fertility in the U.S., for example, is almost five times lower than in some African countries.  The greater strain on available resources is in the developing world, and given the horrendous environmental circumstances in most of those countries, I think it can be said that that is where the crux of the overpopulation crisis lies.  But populations are expected to rise in most places; Europe is I believe the only place where it is going to level off and decline a bit.  The matter is academic, anyway -- populations rising almost everywhere over the next fifty years spells serious doom.  The planet was simply never, ever meant to support this many humans, no matter how many tricks we have up our sleeves.




Iirc, it is demonstrable that the first world uses far and away more resources. Basics like water, a single American uses several times what a large 3rd world family does, the acreage and manpower to produce an American meal would similarly provide a 3rd world family with more than a week of food, oh and then 75% gets thrown away. Many aspire to mcMansions, their private pool, multiple yearly vacations,  several cars, a  couple 90" tvs, etc. Of course, I suppose every individual gets to decide how to spend their money,  but that wasn't the question.


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Crumist]
    #23565505 - 08/22/16 10:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You make a good point, I see no fault with your logic.  The U.S. comprises four percent of the world's population, yet consumes roughly 25% of its available resources.  A lot of that is due to the fact that the U.S. landmass is the richest resource-base in the world.  But, as you begin to suggest, everyone can't live at our standard of living.  Something's got to give.  That's one of the reasons why the population at large is simply too big.

The U.S. does use more than its fair share, but conditions in the developing world are truly horrendous, and overpopulation there is clearly a crisis.  How about we just agree that things are fucked up all over?


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23566451 - 08/22/16 04:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
The U.S. does use more than its fair share, but conditions in the developing world are truly horrendous, and overpopulation there is clearly a crisis.  How about we just agree that things are fucked up all over?




That things are fucked up I can totally agree on. What I'm trying to get at is there's something wrong about 1st worlders scolding developing nations for having high fertility rates when the ecological impact is negligible to 1st world consumption and also, infant morality rates have only recently seen a decrease. If life was hard because you were the only surviving child of 7, why would you listen to some foreigner saying 2-3 children is best?

But yeah, stuffs fucked. I think a relevant question is "are you glad you were born"


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Crumist]
    #23566472 - 08/22/16 04:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I see your point.  Yes, Uncle Sam can be damned sanctimonious with other sovereign nations. 

"The planet is fine.  The people are fucked."  --George Carlin


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23566707 - 08/22/16 05:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Overpopulation is a crisis, and I feel most of our problems are the direct or indirect result of such a huge population straining the ecosystems of Earth.  If things are not to get worse, we need to get a handle on this.  Thing is, that's not going to happen.  The population is projected to be from ten to twelve billion human souls within fifty years from now.  This is completely unacceptable.  And yet, it is unavoidable.  We passed the point of no return many decades ago, and it's going to be hard to get to a point where all of the mouths to feed are full.  I am all for having many fewer offspring, especially in the third world, but once they're here ya gotta love 'em.

I personally plan to intentionally refrain from having children during my lifetime.  I feel it is the right thing to do.  It could indeed be argued that bringing additional souls into this hell-mess is immoral -- could easily be argued.  But this crisis is going to get worse before it gets better, and we just have to buckle up for it.  There's nothing anyone can do.


Time just to sit back and enjoy the crisis.



and watch as everyone complains about socialism and totalitarianism, while the fat-cats who can help pay for what they manipulated to serve them, to make them fat-cats, just sit rich and pretty, till they die and pass on their shit to their families, whom are probably groomed from birth to be just as avaricious.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #23566967 - 08/22/16 06:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Yep.


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Offlinenothing exists
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23568554 - 08/23/16 09:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

procreation stops the individual from progress away from karma. by extension, any thing that is created has a potential to incur karmic energy. this is the wisdom of being unattached.


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Alonzo]
    #23568897 - 08/23/16 11:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I feel that some are missing the issue. It's not saying that it's immoral to procreate because of the current state of affairs in the world, but it's arguing that procreation is always immoral. The act itself is immoral.

Quote:

Alonzo said:
I read about this on Wikipedia and found it interesting. See Antinatalism

Quote:

Then I looked again at all the acts of oppression which were being done under the sun. And behold I saw the tears of the oppressed and that they had no one to comfort them; and on the side of their oppressors was power, but they had no one to comfort them. So I congratulated the dead who are already dead more than the living who are still living. But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun.




Quote:

The world is ruled by the will to live; a blind, irrational force, manifested by wanting, which constantly strives to manifest itself, however, is never satisfied with its manifestations which are the cause of suffering. Existence is filled with suffering. In the world there is more pain than pleasure; happiness and the pleasure of thousands are not able to compensate for the anguish and agony of a single one, and all things considered it would be better if life had never occurred. The essence of ethical conduct is compassion and the denial of the will to live consisting in overcoming one’s own desires through asceticism. Once we deny the will to live, placing a human being in the world is a superfluous, senseless, and very questionable moral action.




Quote:

I do not understand how anyone can procreate without certain knowledge of the ultimate cosmic destination of those they bring into the world. It is beyond my comprehension that people do this. It seems to me that the sensible thing to do would be to await certain knowledge. If certain knowledge does not come (which would probably mean a knowledge shared by the entire human race), I would have thought that one would have to ask the question, "Why on Earth do I want to have children? What am I thinking of?




Buddhists say life is suffering.
Why doom a child or any being to a life on Earth?




Wikipedia's entry on antinatalism (or most philosophy entries for that matter) is terrible. It's just a bunch of naive reasoning thrown together that sort of sum up reasons why someone would be against procreation, coupled with some poetic aphorisms. It's an unhelpful and misleading defense of the position, with a laughable "criticism" section that doesn't say anything useful, all the while stretching the words of some of the people cited on there. I've linked/referenced some stuff below if you're interested in exploring the topic.

The form of antinatlism that you allude to could be called Benatar's antinatalism (a position famously defended by David Benatar), where he argues that the sufferings of the world outweigh the pleasures of the world, and thus, we shouldn't procreate because it's the "root of all evil" because procreation allowing suffering. If no one existed, then there would be no suffering. This is a hard position to defend, but he defends it.

Since it's a hard position to defend, there are other reasons that people defend antinatalism. Other's hold that it's an asymmetrical attitude that we have towards procreation. There seems to be a duty to not give birth to someone if we know that they'll be born with some horrible disease, or in a less than favorable state of affairs, but there doesn't seem to be a duty to give birth. If a couple gives birth to a child and they know that they can't raise that child, it seems cruel and immoral for the parents to have a child. But if a couple doesn't have a child, we don't think they're immoral for not having children. So if there's no duty to give birth, why would we do it?

And others hold that it's a consent issue. People can't consent to birth and forcing them existence on them is immoral because it's done without consent.

These are the 3 major motivations of antinatlism. If you're interested in them, I'd check out Benatar's Better To Have Never Been if you're interested in his arguments and flavor of antinatalism. Seana Shiffrin argued the consent issue in her paper entitled Wrongful Life, Procreative Responsibility, and the Significance of Harm, and Christopher Belshaw wrote a paper called A New Argument for Antinatalism, where he argues from those asymmetrical attitudes that I mentioned earlier about not starting lives that are bad.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: r72rock]
    #23569513 - 08/23/16 03:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

without fucking what in the flying hell fuck are people supposed to do. run amok?


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OfflineCrumist
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: r72rock]
    #23569870 - 08/23/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thus spake the philosophy minor: "/thread"

Going to check out those links tho


--------------------
'I am all for resources being allocated to the widowed single mother of 3, lost husband over seas fighting for our country. I am for vets getting mental health access and resources following war. I am not for free money cause a woman can't close her legs or some chump with low testosterone no going to work cause "i'm sad."' -finalexplosion
Nice knowin ya'll! https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23904704/vc/1#23904704


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Invisibler72rock
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: Crumist]
    #23570163 - 08/23/16 06:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
without fucking what in the flying hell fuck are people supposed to do. run amok?




lol, enjoy life and wait for human extinction?

Quote:

Crumist said:
Thus spake the philosophy minor: "/thread"

Going to check out those links tho




Or it's a topic that I find interesting and am passionate about. I hope it's not the end of the thread. It's a broad topic. I just personally felt that the Wikipedia article did a bad job presenting the point. If you do check out those links, lemme know what you think of them. :smile:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Antinatalism (Procreation is Bad) [Re: r72rock]
    #23570506 - 08/23/16 08:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

r72rock said:

And others hold that it's a consent issue. People can't consent to birth and forcing them existence on them is immoral because it's done without consent.




seems silly
assumes everything else people do is highly moral
assumes people have free will
assumes a self that exists before birth
assumes that this preexisting self is mature and has an opinion on the subject

It's (the 'consent issue') what I call a facsimile of profundity


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