|
laughingdog
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/04
Posts: 4,828
|
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
#23571598 - 08/24/16 02:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
hTx you ran a thread like this before for over a year apparently the results were not satisfying to you
and it must amuse bored mods on this board so they tolerate it and don't move it to 'science' or /spirituality & mysticism' or ... Enlil mod on the security board and also on conspiracy board seems to more readily call a spade a spade
2 quotes would seem to apply:
'Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.' Albert Einstein Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: “The world is divided into people who think they are right.”
|
nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
|
|
Human designed GMOs, I'd have a hard time calling that "intelligent" design. Maybe clever design but like previously stated, intelligence IS relative.
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
#23572037 - 08/24/16 07:12 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
As well, OC , did you know the math was already done several years ago?
I have seen the make-believe math from Creationists
Quote:
It was concluded that evolution by natural selection could not have produced the complexity of life especially considering humanity, we see today.
Concluded by whom? Certainly not mainstream biologists.
Quote:
Links to evidence when home.
I doubt it.
--------------------
|
zzripz
Stranger


Registered: 12/23/08
Posts: 8,292
Loc: Manchester, UK
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: nuentoter]
#23572066 - 08/24/16 07:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Intelligent design is Permaculture which involves learning from nature which is intelligence and source OF intelligence
|
nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
|
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: zzripz]
#23572089 - 08/24/16 07:45 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I agree, GMO's give the implication that we know better than nature.
absurd
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: nuentoter]
#23572194 - 08/24/16 08:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Do you eat bananas? (Or non-GMO tomatoes, wheat, apples, corn)
--------------------
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Quote:
ChristopherABrown said: But how do you answer?
Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?
Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?
My answer is that government cannot be other than it is. I cannot answer these questions, as I reject their premises. "Unalienable rights" is luminous nonsense and the powerful will not allow any faction of people to abolish government, no matter what happens.
Free speech is, as I have said, a temporary, conditional privilege. Your questions mean nothing to me.
Government is not going to undergo an overhaul, not without a major crisis first, anyway. Maybe Bernie might have given people like you a shot, but likely not, as Congress would have stonewalled him.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said: as regards Freedom of speech--well privacy is already very compromised.
Even the phrase 'the government' is misleading. no one person, or small group, knows what all the branches are up to. there are so many secret groups, so many behind the scenes deals, so many illegal relationships with corporations, nefarious weapons projects, favors owed, secret and illegal operations, incompetence, constant lying, misinformation, and so on. I guess we use the term because it makes us feel secure.
The CIA has experimented on US citizens. this is way beyond free speech issues.
Given this is the case, in some sense referring to the constitution as a gold standard seems out of touch. soon there will be human clones and embedded rfid chips, maybe first in china, maybe in 50 years--who knows---but the framers would already go into shock if they saw our world, i think.
still we're lucky we have the constitution, and an attempt at government--without it things could be much worse.
All outstanding points. There are roughly three million employees under the federal umbrella, so whenever people make sweeping statements about the government they should realize they're talking about thousands and millions of working civilians. Government is obviously quite necessary, and you're right -- our system, with its Constitution, is far, far better than anarchy.
Privacy in the modern age is no more. It is a casualty; this is the consequence of technology and interconnectedness. As I have been saying, appeals to the first and fourth amendments become rather quaint and lame, as they are at best selectively enforced.
Rights are, and have always been, temporary privileges granted by the governing to the governed. If there's ever really any threat to the former, those rights will quite typically be rescinded.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
ChristopherABrown
Human being


Registered: 07/22/16
Posts: 330
Loc: Santa Barbara California
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
laughingdog said: as regards Freedom of speech--well privacy is already very compromised.
Even the phrase 'the government' is misleading. no one person, or small group, knows what all the branches are up to. there are so many secret groups, so many behind the scenes deals, so many illegal relationships with corporations, nefarious weapons projects, favors owed, secret and illegal operations, incompetence, constant lying, misinformation, and so on. I guess we use the term because it makes us feel secure.
The CIA has experimented on US citizens. this is way beyond free speech issues.
Given this is the case, in some sense referring to the constitution as a gold standard seems out of touch. soon there will be human clones and embedded rfid chips, maybe first in china, maybe in 50 years--who knows---but the framers would already go into shock if they saw our world, i think.
still we're lucky we have the constitution, and an attempt at government--without it things could be much worse.
All outstanding points. There are roughly three million employees under the federal umbrella, so whenever people make sweeping statements about the government they should realize they're talking about thousands and millions of working civilians. Government is obviously quite necessary, and you're right -- our system, with its Constitution, is far, far better than anarchy.
Privacy in the modern age is no more. It is a casualty; this is the consequence of technology and interconnectedness. As I have been saying, appeals to the first and fourth amendments become rather quaint and lame, as they are at best selectively enforced.
Rights are, and have always been, temporary privileges granted by the governing to the governed. If there's ever really any threat to the former, those rights will quite typically be rescinded.
True enough, but some rights cannot be relinquished, and still expect to survive after they are gone. This is not an immediate issue, it is an eventual issue.
Accordingly, the tyranny of the masses can be our tool simply by agreement. It comes down to the question of "Are we going to place our wants over our needs, before the eventual deprival of the need becomes obvious if we do place the wants over the needs?" Neglect to enforcement of the constitution can lead to its relinquishment. Why not make the agreements needed to enforce it and do so now?
I, for one, am always pointing out that we do have some good government officials and employees. Why not give them something good from states citizens to align with that is completely constitutional?
Do we have the intelligence to use the foresight in this instance, or are we too completely dumbed down and distracted to do so?
Are we too distracted to take a few minutes each day, at the right time with friends and family to put forth information leading to an understanding that we must eventually deal with this or face extinction? Clearly, government is aligned with corporations and corporate interests. As our commodities are increasingly provided and controlled by corporations, who most often value or place profits over environmental integrity, we loose control over our sustenance of our existence.
Are we intelligent enough to realize that it is media preventing us from unifying with information needed for survival? At what point are we capable of admitting that we as members of society have or are having imposed a serious mental disability in cognitively, collectively recognizing that we personally need to adapt in small, but widespread ways?
-------------------- You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want. People that do not want what they need, have a problem. Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?
Edited by ChristopherABrown (08/24/16 11:56 AM)
|
nuentoter
conduit



Registered: 09/17/08
Posts: 2,721
Last seen: 7 years, 21 days
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Do you eat bananas? (Or non-GMO tomatoes, wheat, apples, corn)
I am going to guess that you are going to mention the fact that humans have "genetically altered" foods for a long time, like with the banana and carrot. They were much different before we started to cultivate them, which led to them being selectively bred, and thus changing their genetics with the generations. This is process though allows for minor changes and for nature to do her part in much of the work. Scientists creating GMO foods are taking a shortcut, while i find nothing inherently wrong with this practice, they are missing out on the validation process of generations. Things like sustainability and impact on the environment in those areas simply cannot be calculated in such short time spans.
so like i said before, clever, but not intelligent in my book
--------------------
The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know. - @entheolove "I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for" - Georgia O'Keefe I think the word is vagina
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Our conversation has been off topic for too long. I'm done.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: nuentoter]
#23577027 - 08/25/16 05:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
nuentoter said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Do you eat bananas? (Or non-GMO tomatoes, wheat, apples, corn)
I am going to guess that you are going to mention the fact that humans have "genetically altered" foods for a long time, like with the banana and carrot. They were much different before we started to cultivate them, which led to them being selectively bred, and thus changing their genetics with the generations. This is process though allows for minor changes and for nature to do her part in much of the work. Scientists creating GMO foods are taking a shortcut, while i find nothing inherently wrong with this practice, they are missing out on the validation process of generations. Things like sustainability and impact on the environment in those areas simply cannot be calculated in such short time spans.
so like i said before, clever, but not intelligent in my book
So now you recant your earlier statement?
Quote:
...the implication that we know better than nature.
Selective breeding does indeed imply this. And everyone who eats such modern foods apparently agrees.
--------------------
Edited by OrgoneConclusion (08/25/16 08:56 PM)
|
iiilil
Stranger


Registered: 01/08/16
Posts: 369
|
Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx] 1
#23577465 - 08/25/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Order signifies purpose. Purpose signifies intent. Intent signifies intelligence.
Pretty much everything in the universe operates under this pretense. You'd be hard pressed to find even a single case that it does not.
In the cases where you think this pretense does not underscore existence, it is only likely that you just don't know enough yet.
Part of man's journey is to witness the unfolding of this intelligence and subsequent understanding. This journey is to be conducted with humility. Questioning is fine in so much as it leads to new understanding. Mindless mental masturbation is very much that. Hand waving and confusion as a means to rid oneself of acknowledging the aforementioned pretense is a fools errand and only leads one further from discovery.
So.. DNA. Yeah, you have some solid thoughts... It is what it is and we can use science to discover more about it. Your views of the world will necessarily shape this discovery which is why you don't just hand wave off 'higher' level thinking.
Order signifies purpose. Purpose signifies intent. Intent signifies intelligence.
Order is present in DNA.. the rest follows. Science is the mechanism for discovering the order to things... step 1 of a longer chain.
Want to know more on the order of things? Test out your theories? Get in the pits and start getting muddy
|
ChristopherABrown
Human being


Registered: 07/22/16
Posts: 330
Loc: Santa Barbara California
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said:
Quote:
ChristopherABrown said: But how do you answer?
Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?
Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?
My answer is that government cannot be other than it is. I cannot answer these questions, as I reject their premises. "Unalienable rights" is luminous nonsense and the powerful will not allow any faction of people to abolish government, no matter what happens.
Free speech is, as I have said, a temporary, conditional privilege. Your questions mean nothing to me.
Government is not going to undergo an overhaul, not without a major crisis first, anyway. Maybe Bernie might have given people like you a shot, but likely not, as Congress would have stonewalled him.
Hmmm, it is unfortunate you do not understand the constitution, which explains why you think in the box made for you. To remedy that look at the language in Article V, or what happens when 3/4 of the states agree while having conventions proposing amendments in their states.
-------------------- You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want. People that do not want what they need, have a problem. Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Having trouble seeing posts?
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Our conversation has been off topic for too long. I'm done. 
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
ChristopherABrown
Human being


Registered: 07/22/16
Posts: 330
Loc: Santa Barbara California
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Having trouble seeing posts?
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Our conversation has been off topic for too long. I'm done. 
Having trouble seeing the intelligent design of the constitution?
-------------------- You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want. People that do not want what they need, have a problem. Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?
|
DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
|
|
Look, I don't think you're getting this. We are OT. This thread is about a teleological unfoldment in Nature, not political documents. If you wish to discuss the Constitution, please start a new thread.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
|
ChristopherABrown
Human being


Registered: 07/22/16
Posts: 330
Loc: Santa Barbara California
Last seen: 7 years, 1 month
|
|
Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Look, I don't think you're getting this. We are OT. This thread is about a teleological unfoldment in Nature, not political documents. If you wish to discuss the Constitution, please start a new thread.
I've already done that. The thread about the Countermand Amendment.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23569948
The constitution in its original intent is natural law unfolding in human society as it unfolds in nature. I really don't see enough difference to take the objection seriously. Having stated that I will see if you post in the thread about the constitution.
-------------------- You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want. People that do not want what they need, have a problem. Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?
|
hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
|
|
Quote:
laughingdog said: hTx you ran a thread like this before for over a year apparently the results were not satisfying to you
and it must amuse bored mods on this board so they tolerate it and don't move it to 'science' or /spirituality & mysticism' or ... Enlil mod on the security board and also on conspiracy board seems to more readily call a spade a spade
2 quotes would seem to apply:
'Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.' Albert Einstein Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html
Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said: “The world is divided into people who think they are right.”
Although similar, the thread wasn't quite the same as this one... in that thread I proposed that informational changes are primary to evolution and physical changes in the form of beneficial mutations naturally selected by the environment should or could be seen as secondary, with the ultimate goal of creating increasingly complex life-forms capable of increasing degrees of novelty and intelligence.
In that thread, I was more hinting that the universe itself is intelligent and self-aware, without ever really overtly stating so. The strategy behind this was so that anyone curious and open-minded enough to really listen to what I was saying, would come to that conclusion all on their own.
In that thread I also speculated into the forever questioned 'meaning of life' -- explaining a logical purpose behind the emergence of life and its subsequent evolution into hugely complex and intelligent life-forms.
I never directly called DNA as a whole, intelligent and self-aware, although it was definitely implied.
As well, you act like that thread was a total disaster of logic and idiocy, however, not one of you was able to prove my proposition utterly wrong in the years that thread was active.
In fact, as evidence of my proposition began to pour in, most of you naysayers were completely stumped. The last few pages in the thread are of myself and others sympathetic to the logic posting links to recent discoveries which were in direct support of the OP. Over-all, I consider the thread a major success, so I am unsure why you are posting about it here as if it was some major failure of logic that was proved completely wrong.
The mods put up with it because I did (and do) a good job defending my position.
The aim of this thread is much less broad, and is to investigate the possible intelligence and self-awareness of DNA (I haven't really delved into some of the more interesting details yet). As well, I wanted to show that we can have a discussion with regards to Intelligent Design without bringing fundamentalist ideals into the discussion.
I can tell that many perceptions here (and elsewhere I'm sure), have been tainted by the term Intelligent Design thanks to the terrible, and mostly illogical efforts made by Christian fundamentalists.
The difference between myself and them, and what I am proposing, is vastly different.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
|
hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
I have seen the make-believe math from Creationists
The math which I am speaking of came from Murray Eden, an MIT engineer, in the late 60s.
Quote:
Concluded by whom? Certainly not mainstream biologists.
its not usually mainstream biologists who are appalled at the universal acceptance of Darwinism, its usually computer scientists, mathematicians from multiple fields, engineers, quantum physicists, etc. Few trained in biology can or even will try to understand the mathematical impossibilities concerning how life got to where it is today based on strict Darwinism. As well, evolutionary studies are quite specialized within the broad field of biology. Most are taught natural selection in high school or first year college bio classes and never really retouch the subject again unless they choose to specialize in fields especially concerned with evolution. Even those that specialize in evolutionary fields often ignore the emergence of humanity, leaving that to the anthropologists.
Quote:
Links to evidence when home.
I doubt it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6051132
""[A]n opposite way to look at the genotype is as a generative algorithm and not as a blue-print; a sort of carefully spelled out and foolproof recipe for producing a living organism of the right kind if the environment in which it develops is a proper one. Assuming this to be so, the algorithm must be written in some abstract language. Molecular biology may well have provided us with the alphabet of this language, but it is a long step from the alphabet to understanding a language. Nevertheless a language has to have rules, and these are the strongest constraints on the set of possible messages. No currently existing formal language can tolerate random changes in the symbol sequences which express its sentences. Meaning is almost invariably destroyed. Any changes must be syntactically lawful ones. I would conjecture that what one might call "genetic grammaticality" has a deterministic explanation and does not owe its stability to selection pressure acting on random variation." (Murray Eden, "Inadequacies as a Scientific Theory," in Mathematical Challenges to the Neo-Darwinian Interpretation of Evolution (Wistar Institute Press, 1966, No. 5), pg. 11) "
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
|
|