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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: laughingdog]
    #23561889 - 08/21/16 12:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:


Well, hTx would probably say that, due to entanglement, negentropic processes lead to increasing levels of novelty.  In other words, there is increasing order potentially leading toward some transcendent resolution (or goal) in the future.  I would say that is a possibility I entertain.




...eternity is forever. If the universe wants to achieve some 'perfection' (aka: 'transcendent resolution' or 'goal') (by god only knows what standard) what will it do forever after?, look in the mirror admiring it's static perfection, (that we have decided it presently lacks), ...




basically what we have here is Christian theology in the guise of science, exactly, what htx claims he isn't doing and as OG said he restarts these anti Darwin, science proves his theology, threads every so often, with no actual convincing evidence, one such thread ran for years. If folks want to go to church fine. If folks want to work with Jimmy Carter and do Christian good deeds fine. But this fanatical desire to do missionary work in the guise of science is tiresome to many. I suppose some will say not to participate if one doesn't like it.
However one possible function of the forum might be to have some sort of rigor expected of scientific claims. Brendan flock? of course goes it's? own way. Perhaps that is the only true intelligence, however it doesn't seem conducive to dialogue either.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: laughingdog]
    #23562148 - 08/21/16 05:23 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

yes, eternal is beyond time. This doesn't mean that time stops. time can be tick tocking yet eternity is. People who have psychedelic experience can experience this, I did. it was when I was 15, and about my second LSD trip, and we were tripping and nopticed the clock said 1:40 am, and this had us in fits of hysterical giggling , falling about, and one guy even wrote in big pink crayon (or some sht) 'IT IS 20 2 2!' and we all fell even more about laughing

Also this sense can happen 'naturally' (put in brackets because i do not think psychedelics experience unnatural) such as happens to people like William Black who said:

Quote:

To see a World in a Grain of Sand. And a Heaven in a Wild Flower. Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand. And Eternity in an hour.




What this means is that in such ec~stasy we are beyond stasis, beyond static/rigid/fixed 'certainties as would convince our ratio_nality ( from ratio (genitive rationis) "reckoning, calculation, reason" (see ratio).). Which would respond: 'see a world in a grain of sand?BAH HUMBUG!! FACTS SIR. THAT IS HOW TO SEE THE WORLD!'

I remember when I first got online and looked for a psychedelic forum and found The Lycaeum. and found to my shock that many there clung to this kind of rational stance. Once when I was decribing a magical sense of experiencing water, lakes etc on psychedelics, I got this from someone 'WATER IS H2O!!!' lol

So if you identify with a 'logical' sense of yourself and someone claims to have experienced eternity 'in a minute' this will be met with complete non-understanding and even hostility, and/or they will insist that 'eternity' and 'time' cannot be in a same 'spacetime'.


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Offlinenuentoter
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: zzripz]
    #23564297 - 08/21/16 09:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Absolutely, I have had experiences that felt like I lived a lifetime in the span of a few hours. Time is incredibly subjective. What is a few minutes to a black coral that lives for 4000 years?
What is an hour to a mayfly?

I also believe that the idea of eternity send an all inclusive term containing all of the infinity of time. There is also timelessness, this would be existing outside of time. I think that things like thoughts, emotions, energy, exist outside of time.


--------------------

The geometry of us is no chance. We are antennae, we are tuning forks, we are receiver and transmitters of all energy. We are more than we know.  - @entheolove

"I found I could say things with color and shapes that I couldn't say any other way - things I had no words for"  - Georgia O'Keefe

I think the word is vagina


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: nuentoter]
    #23564486 - 08/21/16 10:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


I remember when I first got online and looked for a psychedelic forum and found The Lycaeum. and found to my shock that many there clung to this kind of rational stance. Once when I was decribing a magical sense of experiencing water, lakes etc on psychedelics, I got this from someone 'WATER IS H2O!!!' lol




I had the same experience, coming onto the internet expecting other psychedelic users to share my vision of a reality made out of consciousness but instead to find a large percentage of them, still buying into the scientific materialism/reductionism mythology.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: Peyote Road]
    #23565065 - 08/22/16 05:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:


I remember when I first got online and looked for a psychedelic forum and found The Lycaeum. and found to my shock that many there clung to this kind of rational stance. Once when I was decribing a magical sense of experiencing water, lakes etc on psychedelics, I got this from someone 'WATER IS H2O!!!' lol




I had the same experience, coming onto the internet expecting other psychedelic users to share my vision of a reality made out of consciousness but instead to find a large percentage of them, still buying into the scientific materialism/reductionism mythology.




Glad to know I am not alone! I was real shocked. it mad me ask questions though, and I began to think eg hmmmm was it that I took psychedelics so young when 15 that I feel like this? By this I don't mean others older cannot feel it, but that say someone is VERY indoctrinated in 'materialism' from 'education' and so on, and is convinced science, and the 'experts' have all the answers (or WILL do), and they take psychedelics say about early 20s, etc, well when they 'come down' maybe they are going to judge any experiences which challenge their worldview as 'distorted', 'just chemicals' etc? Because I came across all of that too from such people. I remember this moderator there who was so on-my-case that he even followed me to another forum when I began questioning the mental illness myth. We had a 99 post confrontation, mostly me and him, he called himself 'the Bricoluer' (not sure if I have spelling right)and he was into 'rational mysticism'.


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #23566340 - 08/22/16 03:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Intelligent Design:
With the development of human life and science, DNA seems like it could more easily begin to understand itself, manipulate itself, and perhaps eventually even spread to other planets via colonization by humanity.





If American humanity does not get off its ass, stop watching TV, and start making decisions that lead to unity around preserving the constitution, globalism is going to take over, and within 300 years humanity is going to know it is going extinct.

In 100 years IF we stop all war making and and begin to control ourselves sensibly in our ecosphere, then we will have the stability and capacity to properly develop and conduct space travel.  Now, no.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23566381 - 08/22/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You do realize that the framers of the Constitution had the one percent exclusively in mind, right?  They excluded women, blacks and unenfranchised citizens.  Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton, etc. -- they all wanted an aristocracy to rule the country indefinitely.  The Constitution is great, but it is not as sacred as people think.

You also write as if globalism hasn't taken over.  News flash: it has.  The neoliberal globalized economy is a reality, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Also, 300 years is a long time.  If we don't figure our shit out, we'll go extinct much sooner than 300 years from now.  We have less time than you think on the environment, too.

Space travel is irrelevant.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23566858 - 08/22/16 06:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
You do realize that the framers of the Constitution had the one percent exclusively in mind, right?  They excluded women, blacks and unenfranchised citizens.  Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Hamilton, etc. -- they all wanted an aristocracy to rule the country indefinitely.  The Constitution is great, but it is not as sacred as people think.

You also write as if globalism hasn't taken over.  News flash: it has.  The neoliberal globalized economy is a reality, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Also, 300 years is a long time.  If we don't figure our shit out, we'll go extinct much sooner than 300 years from now.  We have less time than you think on the environment, too.

Space travel is irrelevant.




I understand the position you take differently.  The framers made a compromise, but got a deal with some awesome principle made. They were appeasing factions.  The underlying principals lead to solution of the issues you point out.

The key is realizing that the laws only work for us if WE use them.  I'm pointing out HOW to use them.

And you are absolutely correct about globalization, however there are some things about human adaptivity you do not know.  Accordingly, all that is truly negative about globalization can be stopped.  Se my signature, I'm far ahead of you.

Accordingly, "figuring out our shit" amounts to agreement, unity, alignment under law, and then action under law.  That will eventually enable justice.  At that point we wil begin to learn about what we do not know about human adaptivity.

I will give you an example of the kind of injustice that has prevailed allowing the conditions you describe to be trends.  In 1998 I tried to use my right to evidence and witness in a civil action against my county for concealing records of the old federal court that was here.


Had those arrest and booking records been produced, I would have proven that over 1,000 insanity actions of the federal court were absent from the county state courts records.  State laws mandated that almost any expense was justified to replace the value of those records to the public, so the sheriffs dept. failed to appear at the demand of the county counsel who is identified and executing an agenda maintaining the basis of secrecy for our secret government by directing them to lie about their possession of the records.

This declaration which is witnessed is by a friend of mine who saw the records 1 year before the subpoena.  He is how I knew the records were there.



But, all of that is simply background for the reason we need to alter or abolish.  To do that we must be unified.  To be unified around constitutional intent invokes the 9th amendment.  We can define rights not currently enumerated.

The root problem is that the PURPOSE of free speech is abridged.  The framers were unable to include the full doctrine of free speech they
learned from the SIx Nations Iroquois Confederacy.  "The Greater Meaning of Free Speech".

From the practice of free speech between people, an understandings can be created.  From those can come; forgiveness, tolerance, acceptance, respect, trust, friendship and love, protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I learned of that from a descendent of the Seneca.

There is no doubt of the philosophical, then legal veracity of that as law serves the human interest.  Accordingly, the framers were only able to include 30% of that doctrine of understanding regarding the ultimate purposes of free speech.

In a biological realm, free speech enables the sharing and understanding of knowledge needed for human survival.  In a legalistic realm under our constitution and the intents of it from the Declaration of Independence, the ultimate purpose is to enable the unity required to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to unalienable rights.

To invoke the 9th amendment effectively we need to agree that the purpose of free speech is abridged and use that fact to justify directing our state legislators to work to gather other state legislators for an Article V convention via conventions in the several states.

The first order of business is preparation for Article V by specific amendment to assure all amendments have constitutional intent as Article V requires.

Highly idealistic, not a quick fix, but a permanent fix.  A great way
to eventually escape partisan politics.  This is the first step in  "figuring out our shit".


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23566960 - 08/22/16 06:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

...I'm far ahead of you.




You can assume that, but you don't really know.  I have to say, from where I sit, this is a rehash of the same old stuff I've seen a zillion times, which comes to naught a zillion times.  Our society is decaying, which is the subject of another thread, but such a process does not allow for magically, all-of-a-sudden liberal democratic principles to be enforced to the letter.  It just isn't happening.

You do seem to have an impressive knowledge of the Constitution.

But...

Quote:

Highly idealistic, not a quick fix, but a permanent fix.  A great way
to eventually escape partisan politics.  This is the first step in  "figuring out our shit".




It is appallingly naive for you to to assume that you have any formula at all for a "permanent" fix.  At no time in human history has any form of governance or institutional order been permanent.  Our ideologies are not even permanent.  The Buddhists assert that nothing in the universe can be permanent.  That is a major mistake, imo, to think you can fix things permanently if we will all just stop and listen to you.

And by the way, partisan politics is about 240 years old.  It won't turn on a dime for you.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23568468 - 08/23/16 08:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

...I'm far ahead of you.




I have to say, from where I sit, this is a rehash of the same old stuff I've seen a zillion times,.

You do seem to have an impressive knowledge of the Constitution.

But...

Quote:

Highly idealistic, not a quick fix, but a permanent fix.  A great way
to eventually escape partisan politics.  This is the first step in  "figuring out our shit".




It is appallingly naive for you to to assume that you have any formula at all for a "permanent" fix.  At no time in human history has any form of governance or institutional order been permanent.  Our ideologies are not even permanent.  The Buddhists assert that nothing in the universe can be permanent.  That is a major mistake, imo, to think you can fix things permanently if we will all just stop and listen to you.

And by the way, partisan politics is about 240 years old.  It won't turn on a dime for you.




Do I propose it will turn on a dime for me?  Where do I do that?

Where have you seen the "Greater Meaning Of Free Speech", ever?

Generalizations do not work well.  And, be advised, you are now working against the survival and evolution of your species.

Our instincts are permanent, and the constitution is based on them.  Maybe we fail ourselves.  You are demonstrating the possibility.  Things change, but trends can be permanent.  We can establish that our social instincts have a capacity to dominate with positivity.

Let us try a simple agreement to demonstrate this.

Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?


How do you answer?


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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Offlinenothing exists
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ChristopherABrown] * 1
    #23568478 - 08/23/16 08:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

if you dont think you were intelligently designed, you probably werent.


--------------------
i like you...


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: ChristopherABrown]
    #23568619 - 08/23/16 09:49 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Do I propose it will turn on a dime for me?  Where do I do that?

Where have you seen the "Greater Meaning Of Free Speech", ever?

Generalizations do not work well.  And, be advised, you are now working against the survival and evolution of your species.

Our instincts are permanent, and the constitution is based on them.  Maybe we fail ourselves.  You are demonstrating the possibility.  Things change, but trends can be permanent.  We can establish that our social instincts have a capacity to dominate with positivity.

Let us try a simple agreement to demonstrate this.

Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?


How do you answer?




I don't mean to "work against the survival and evolution of my species" but I do not have so rosy an outlook on trends as you do.  Government is power.  The people are the governed.  'Twas ever thus.

Freedom of speech is a temporary and conditional privilege that the powerful allow citizens to have as long as they don't cause any trouble.  There have been many situations in which the government has not allowed one to plead the first, and many situations in which a person's rights were taken away because of something they said.  Your idealism is just sort of silly.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: laughingdog]
    #23571067 - 08/23/16 10:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Driving atm on phone, will update when home but a question to clarify my point and logic here.

Would you consider GMO to be intelligent design?


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23571172 - 08/23/16 11:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Do I propose it will turn on a dime for me?  Where do I do that?

Where have you seen the "Greater Meaning Of Free Speech", ever?

Generalizations do not work well.  And, be advised, you are now working against the survival and evolution of your species.

Our instincts are permanent, and the constitution is based on them.  Maybe we fail ourselves.  You are demonstrating the possibility.  Things change, but trends can be permanent.  We can establish that our social instincts have a capacity to dominate with positivity.

Let us try a simple agreement to demonstrate this.

Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?


How do you answer?




I don't mean to "work against the survival and evolution of my species" but I do not have so rosy an outlook on trends as you do.  Government is power.  The people are the governed.  'Twas ever thus.

Freedom of speech is a temporary and conditional privilege that the powerful allow citizens to have as long as they don't cause any trouble.  There have been many situations in which the government has not allowed one to plead the first, and many situations in which a person's rights were taken away because of something they said.  Your idealism is just sort of silly.




as regards Freedom of speech--well privacy is already very compromised.

Even the phrase 'the government' is misleading. no one person, or small group, knows what all the branches are up to. there are so many secret groups, so many behind the scenes deals, so many illegal relationships with corporations, nefarious weapons projects, favors owed, secret and illegal operations, incompetence, constant lying, misinformation, and so on. I guess we use the term because it makes us feel secure.

The CIA has experimented on US citizens. this is way beyond free speech issues.

Given this is the case, in some sense referring to the constitution as a gold standard seems out of touch. soon there will be human clones and embedded rfid chips, maybe first in china, maybe in 50 years--who knows---but the framers would already go into shock if they saw our world, i think.

still we're lucky we have the constitution, and an attempt at government--without it things could be much worse.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #23571225 - 08/23/16 11:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

As well, OC , did you know the math was already done several years ago?

It was concluded that evolution by natural selection could not have produced the complexity of life especially considering humanity, we see today.

To fix this error it was suggested that dna contains algorithm s which help the process a long, and that these algorithm s were to be found in "junk" DNA.

Links to evidence when home.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Edited by hTx (08/23/16 11:40 PM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #23571226 - 08/23/16 11:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

hTx said:
Driving atm on phone, will update when home but a question to clarify my point and logic here.

Would you consider GMO to be intelligent design?




as posted earlier intelligence is relative

take the lion and the zebra
there could be 3 different goals
2 opposing animal goals & a theoretical ecology one
but in any case --
there is definitely suffering--whats so intelligent about that?

if one had a child and one observed their child playing
and every day its games involved one doll or toy animal
killing the other and eating it,
one would wonder what was wrong and go to the child psychologist

but this is the natural world ( life devours life )
into which you insist on projecting your fantasy of harmony
which you call intelligence

fantasies are fine
beautiful classical music is wonderful
but when it comes to the world we are batter off
acknowledging its horrors
and doing our best to mitigate them
and not waste time sugar coating reality
with elaborate rationalized projections


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23571270 - 08/23/16 11:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

ChristopherABrown said:
Do I propose it will turn on a dime for me?  Where do I do that?

Where have you seen the "Greater Meaning Of Free Speech", ever?

Generalizations do not work well.  And, be advised, you are now working against the survival and evolution of your species.

Our instincts are permanent, and the constitution is based on them.  Maybe we fail ourselves.  You are demonstrating the possibility.  Things change, but trends can be permanent.  We can establish that our social instincts have a capacity to dominate with positivity.

Let us try a simple agreement to demonstrate this.

Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?


How do you answer?




I don't mean to "work against the survival and evolution of my species" but I do not have so rosy an outlook on trends as you do.  Government is power.  The people are the governed.  'Twas ever thus.

Freedom of speech is a temporary and conditional privilege that the powerful allow citizens to have as long as they don't cause any trouble.  There have been many situations in which the government has not allowed one to plead the first, and many situations in which a person's rights were taken away because of something they said.  Your idealism is just sort of silly.




You must know that I'm proposing absolutes rating to the use of our rights.

And it's true, what you say about free speech violated as it is, let alone manifesting its purpose. 

None of that is reason to give up on the ideal.  I wonder why you would consider it.

Or to give up on our right to alter or abolish. 

But how do you answer?

Do you agree and accept that the framers of the founding documents intended for us to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

Do you agree and accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable the unity adequate to effectively alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: laughingdog]
    #23571277 - 08/23/16 11:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

You never actually answered the question..
?


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #23571287 - 08/23/16 11:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Genetically modified organisms are in fact, designed intelligently by humans who are controlled by DNA.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Intelligent Design [Re: hTx]
    #23571320 - 08/23/16 11:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

How can we ignore that fact when considering a valid theory of evolution?


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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by Strumpling
* humans as intelligent designers OldWoodSpecter 1,542 15 09/12/05 12:04 PM
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djd586 3,245 22 12/18/03 03:32 PM
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by Diploid

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