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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Conciousness * 1
    #23554297 - 08/18/16 06:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain

Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?

Anywho just some things I'm pondering much love shroomery keep it shroomy


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InvisibleKush_Zombie
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23554308 - 08/18/16 06:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

:rockon:


--------------------
How to get started in bulk:
Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker
BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box
PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek
Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series
How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs)
What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain)
Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary)
Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful)
Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos] * 2
    #23554357 - 08/18/16 06:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
...Then why are we conciousness? D....




my 2 cents:

perhaps when you know why you ask (not just: "because I'm curious" but deeper: why are your curious about this in particular? what kind of answer could possibly satisfy you? and why would it? Do you just want to feel comfortable? Do you want a religious answer? many folks will be glad to give you one, for free even!).

Perhaps when you know why you ask you will know why we are conscious? but if you don't understand yourself how can you hope to fathom the cosmos?


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: Conciousness [Re: laughingdog]
    #23554495 - 08/18/16 07:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Hmm i guess I should be worded it different I kinda meant how are we conciousness in regard to weather or not an atom or a plant or a seemingly inanimate object has conciousness if there made out of the same fundamental thing on the smallest of scales

I guess my own viewpoint on why we have conciousness is I think we are the universe trying to experience itself


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos] * 5
    #23554560 - 08/18/16 07:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

All that gluons electrons neutrons quarks small particle business is an illusion.  In reality, consciousness comes before mass-energy, not after.  In the modern West, we tend to think that consciousness is the result of interactions of these fundamental entities.  In point of fact, they are extensions or projections from a cosmic substratum that can only be called consciousness, or cosmic consciousness if you want.  Consciousness is the most fundamental level in our universe.  More fundamental than light and mass and the four forces and all that.  There could be dimensions beyond it in the universe or in other universes things could be quite different.  But at least in this universe, consciousness suffuses and gives rise to everything.





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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisiblehTx
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23554675 - 08/18/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:


Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?






Yes, I would say every human's perception is as unique as his/hers fingerprint.

Reason being, every person constructs their own reality and these constructs are influenced by psychological imprints, beliefs, and experience.

Wilson describes individual perception as 'reality-tunnel' and objective reality as plural, an apt description imo.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


Edited by hTx (08/18/16 07:52 PM)


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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: Conciousness [Re: hTx]
    #23554959 - 08/18/16 08:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

We aren't made of atom or quanta or anything, these are just things the human brain invented trying to make a map of reality.

There is only your experience(s).


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


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OfflineChristopherABrown
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Re: Conciousness [Re: beforethedawn]
    #23555236 - 08/18/16 10:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

There are perhaps 3 major consciousnesses that have been identified b psychology.  Unconscious, right brain intuitive, left Bain cognitive consciousness, and a consciousness that examines those 2 semi remotely and separate from them.  That part is mostly controlled by the unconscious but because of cognitive implications it is self conscious and separated while identifying with the 2 in essential, individual ways.


--------------------
You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want.

People that do not want what they need, have a problem.

Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?


Edited by ChristopherABrown (08/18/16 10:04 PM)


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OfflineAlonzo
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23555296 - 08/18/16 10:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain

Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?

Anywho just some things I'm pondering much love shroomery keep it shroomy




Tbh I don't know, I didn't create life, nature, or physics.
I can speculate...

In this reality, there are different complexities and systems of life.
Complex matter such as human beings can register with a consciousness, which is immaterial and possibly an extremely high frequency wave or signal that our technology is currently unable to detect.
Your unique consciousness is bound and linked only to your body. This is why you have continued to wake up in your specific body all your life and hear/receive only your thoughts. (Individuals with bodily damages, defects, and impairments may have impaired consciousness for their current lifetime; treat them with respect and compassion).
Other complex life such as plants and nonhuman animals also have a consciousness but theirs is not as refined as ours.
At death, there is a 50% chance we (consciousness) cease to exist and a 50% chance we continue to exist in some form or fashion. I don't think anyone knows beyond a reasonable doubt what happens at death, but I believe Nature should allow us to continue in some form in another reality. Or perhaps the same reality or one similar.
Physicalists, of course, claim the brain GENERATES consciousness. I say different. The brain is a processor. It PROCESSES data (like consciousness), which grants us our unique position and perspective, on a planet that hosts complex life (i.e. Earth). The brain is like a radio or insects' antennae.
The purpose or use of consciousness through complex bodies is undefinable. Maybe it's for survival or stuff pertaining to evolution. But I don't think consciousness exists just to prolong a species. I think we (consciousness) exist to collect experiences and data, which would be like our nature.

Does an atom have consciousness?
Yes, I think an atom can have consciousness. If an entity can make decisions or behave on its own, it must have some degree of consciousness.
This means inanimate objects like chairs would be receiving some (maybe extremely small) amounts of consciousness.

Is there an experiment to find out if living/organic matter has consciousness?
Some experiment could potentially be made. Somehow. I know this would be unethical, but perhaps we could take 100 human subjects, temporary kill them in a controlled environment by using an electrical device to stop their hearts, revive them, and determine how many of the subjects could view or interact with any body's disconnected consciousness. We can then follow up and see whether just any consciousness can connect with a human's body/brain and not just the original owner.

Does every human perceive everything differently?
Yes because each of us is a unique, separate, subjective observer. Two men can look at the same portrAit of something and see two completely different things. Although what constitutes reality is generally a consensus among groups and cultures of people, people still perceive realize in thier own, individual way. Take into consideration congenitally blind and deaf people. Their perception would be exceptionally different than the regular adult. Congenitally deaf people may not even be able to think normally or at all because they can't hear language. So everyone's consciousness basically causes them to perceive reality differently. In dream realities, all consciousness perceives its environment in a unique way. We may even perceive consciousness of family and friends in dream realities. Consciousness can be in more than one place and time. But some realities (like the immediate one we're in now) bind consciousness to bodies more strongly than others so we may not remember much of the experiences we have in these alternate realities. This can also apply to past lives, which are also possible.

So this is my educated speculation. Hopefully it's good food for thought.


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OfflineAlonzo
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Re: Conciousness [Re: Alonzo]
    #23555323 - 08/18/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh btw unconsciousness could be the times when consciousness can't connect with a sophisticated body and will it about, like when your body is asleep.

EDIT actually now that I think about it, unconsciousness is another word for unaware. When your body moves unconsciously while asleep a consciousness is still directing it just not as intentionally and purposefully.

Subconsciousness could refer to the acquisition and demonstration of movements, thoughts, and ideas from forgotten memories, alternate realities and lives, and primal (i.e. monkey/animal) desires of the body. We could be like puppet masters of our individual bodies, but like the puppet wants to do its own thing. For example, you may want to stay awake but your body wants to sleep, so if your body wants to sleep then that's what it'll do and you'll just have to deal with that. Subconsciousness and consciousness could be like ying and yang. But the former might be pertinent only when you're in possession of a complex body.


Edited by Alonzo (08/19/16 10:05 AM)


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Registered: 04/20/13
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Re: Conciousness [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23555342 - 08/18/16 10:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
All that gluons electrons neutrons quarks small particle business is an illusion.  In reality, consciousness comes before mass-energy, not after.  In the modern West, we tend to think that consciousness is the result of interactions of these fundamental entities.  In point of fact, they are extensions or projections from a cosmic substratum that can only be called consciousness, or cosmic consciousness if you want.  Consciousness is the most fundamental level in our universe.  More fundamental than light and mass and the four forces and all that.  There could be dimensions beyond it in the universe or in other universes things could be quite different.  But at least in this universe, consciousness suffuses and gives rise to everything.








How did you come to this conclusion?

Interestingly, one of the most intelligent people on the planet, Christopher Langan who has a recorded IQ somewhere in the range of 195-210 and devised a cognitive-theoretical model of the universe, has said that to truly understand the universe, one must accept that it is both physical and mental in nature and I wonder if that was touching on the idea you've also presented (or I might be misinterpreting it).


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Offlinebeforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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Re: Conciousness [Re: Into The Woods]
    #23555800 - 08/19/16 02:56 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So studies of consciousness are based on subjects with ordinary consciousness; your average Joes.

The things higher consciousness supplies to the experiencer are not able to be studied; it is akin to studying "what do you see when you see red?"

However, the laboratory is just a special way to bring certain categories of information to CONSCIOUSNESS, the CONSCIOUSNESS of the scientist.

So you have consciousness ... and if yours is higher, then

You explore it ...


--------------------
Hostile humankind
Can't you see you're fucking blind?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23555879 - 08/19/16 04:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

explore is good, staying calm is good, too much "if and then" when there is no clear connection, not so good.

explore and review the data


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Conciousness [Re: Into The Woods]
    #23556280 - 08/19/16 09:19 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Into The Woods said:
How did you come to this conclusion?

Interestingly, one of the most intelligent people on the planet, Christopher Langan who has a recorded IQ somewhere in the range of 195-210 and devised a cognitive-theoretical model of the universe, has said that to truly understand the universe, one must accept that it is both physical and mental in nature and I wonder if that was touching on the idea you've also presented (or I might be misinterpreting it).




Well, I suppose I've come to adopt these ideas over years of tripping, thinking, reading, reflecting and experiencing the connections that all of these reinforce in each other.  These ideas have been developing in my mind since I was much younger.  There are many writers and philosophers whose work resonates with my views, so that is quite heartening.

With regard to Mr. Langan, yes, that is a major component of the, for lack of a better word, idealist view.  The universe has both matter-like and mind-like properties.  In the secular, materialist west, we tend to emphasize the matter-like processes at the expense of the mind-like, and in places like India or Tibet historically it has been the opposite.  I personally feel a balance between the two must exist, but in my own mind I highlight the mind-like aspects of reality, probably because most people in my society ignore them.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos] * 1
    #23556619 - 08/19/16 11:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain

Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?

Anywho just some things I'm pondering much love shroomery keep it shroomy




A good book I read is called Radical Nature: Rediscovering the Soul of Matter, by Christian De Qunicey
He explores this subject from a philosophical angle, and concludes that consioucness 'goes all the way down' meaning that yes, all elements, from trees to quarks and beyond are sentient/aware/conscious. Because otherwise, the materialist position that consciousness is produced by complex matter/the brain requires a 'miracle'. For how could unconscious matter suddenly become conscious?!

mythically he is just stating what Goddess religion would understand anciently: That 'spirit' is immanent in 'matter'!

What tends to happen though in dualistic thinking is an either or scenerio: on one side those who think everything is matter and there is no spirit, or that there is only consciousness and 'matter' is some kind of illusion--the latter idea pushed by New Age beliefs


Edited by zzripz (08/19/16 11:54 AM)


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
    #23556776 - 08/19/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Nice post. :thumbup:


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Offlineblingbling
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23558871 - 08/20/16 12:26 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain





It could be that consciousness is a fundamental part of the universe and is assembled the way atoms and other stuff is assembled. but as you said this can't be tested.

It could also be that different domains contain different possibilities. Kinda like how the quantum realm can do lots of wacky stuff but once you get to the realm of molecules and the rest these effects don't register. Maybe consciousness can only be registered on the neurological realm.


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Conciousness [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23558873 - 08/20/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
Then why are we conciousness?



The truth is that no one knows.


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Conciousness [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23558875 - 08/20/16 12:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's nice to feel a little less alone and in turn, a little less out of my mind.

That being said, while my own understanding of reality differs, in that I wouldn't have used the word illusion, the nature of this kind of thinking still being quite similar, it's relieving to know that there are like-minded people out there.

But of course, there is only so much within our grasp of understanding at any given time and in my lifetime, a career in physics is the closest I will get to touching on that which can be understood of reality.
It's the route of mapping the universe with closest thing to verifiable certainty. We do what we can with what we have.


Edited by Into The Woods (08/20/16 12:54 AM)


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Conciousness [Re: Into The Woods]
    #23559147 - 08/20/16 04:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

But of course, there is only so much within our grasp of understanding at any given time and in my lifetime, a career in physics is the closest I will get to touching on that which can be understood of reality.




I find it sad you think this way. It is giving up one's own sense of being up to the 'experts'--a modern version of the same about thinking trust in the authority of 'God'. Feeling (because your incoctrinated) such a 'sinner' and so unworthy that 'how could i ever know the 'mind of God'?
Well this is what they also want to have us feel in their technocratic world--to trust that the 'experts' are closer to reality than 'po little me', and we are insignificant in comparison -  The technocratic paradigm gives rise to faith in the rule of 'experts'

How do you not know that every sense of understanding isn't infinite?

Why is it not enough you are conscious

The so-called 'father of Permaculture', Bill Mollison, said this about physicists: 
Quote:


Mollison: In the early 1970s, it dawned on me that no one had ever applied design to agriculture. When I realized it, the hairs went up on the back of my neck. It was so strange. We’d had agriculture for 7,000 years, and we’d been losing for 7,000 years — everything was turning into desert. So I wondered, can we build systems that obey ecological principles? We know what they are, we just never apply them. Ecologists never apply good ecology to their gardens. Architects never understand the transmission of heat in buildings. And physicists live in houses with demented energy systems. It’s curious that we never apply what we know to how we actually live.




Edited by zzripz (08/20/16 04:56 AM)


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