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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



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Conciousness 1
#23554297 - 08/18/16 06:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain
Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?
Anywho just some things I'm pondering much love shroomery keep it shroomy
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Kush_Zombie
smug piece of shit



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Posts: 4,793
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-------------------- How to get started in bulk: Presto 23-Quart Pressure Cooker BOD's Simple as FUCK Still Air Box PastyWhyte's Easy Agar Tek Munchauzen's Cultivation Video Series How EvilMushroom666 Prepares His Grains (I use jars with Synthetic Filter Discs) What is G2G? (Grain-to-Grain) Damion5050's Coir Tek (I use 5.5 - 6 quarts of water instead of 4. Also ignore step 13 and ignore the monotub completely. The only purpose of this tek is to show you how to make a simple substrate. I also add gypsum to it but not necessary) Spitball's Monotub Tek (A liner isn't necessary but is useful) Use 6500k lights throughout the whole process. When you wake up, turn the light on. When you go to sleep turn the light off. It's as simple as that.
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laughingdog
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: ...Then why are we conciousness? D....
my 2 cents:
perhaps when you know why you ask (not just: "because I'm curious" but deeper: why are your curious about this in particular? what kind of answer could possibly satisfy you? and why would it? Do you just want to feel comfortable? Do you want a religious answer? many folks will be glad to give you one, for free even!).
Perhaps when you know why you ask you will know why we are conscious? but if you don't understand yourself how can you hope to fathom the cosmos?
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



Registered: 02/07/15
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Hmm i guess I should be worded it different I kinda meant how are we conciousness in regard to weather or not an atom or a plant or a seemingly inanimate object has conciousness if there made out of the same fundamental thing on the smallest of scales
I guess my own viewpoint on why we have conciousness is I think we are the universe trying to experience itself
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DividedQuantum
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All that gluons electrons neutrons quarks small particle business is an illusion. In reality, consciousness comes before mass-energy, not after. In the modern West, we tend to think that consciousness is the result of interactions of these fundamental entities. In point of fact, they are extensions or projections from a cosmic substratum that can only be called consciousness, or cosmic consciousness if you want. Consciousness is the most fundamental level in our universe. More fundamental than light and mass and the four forces and all that. There could be dimensions beyond it in the universe or in other universes things could be quite different. But at least in this universe, consciousness suffuses and gives rise to everything.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said:
Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?
Yes, I would say every human's perception is as unique as his/hers fingerprint.
Reason being, every person constructs their own reality and these constructs are influenced by psychological imprints, beliefs, and experience.
Wilson describes individual perception as 'reality-tunnel' and objective reality as plural, an apt description imo.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
Edited by hTx (08/18/16 07:52 PM)
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beforethedawn
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Re: Conciousness [Re: hTx]
#23554959 - 08/18/16 08:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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We aren't made of atom or quanta or anything, these are just things the human brain invented trying to make a map of reality.
There is only your experience(s).
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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ChristopherABrown
Human being


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There are perhaps 3 major consciousnesses that have been identified b psychology. Unconscious, right brain intuitive, left Bain cognitive consciousness, and a consciousness that examines those 2 semi remotely and separate from them. That part is mostly controlled by the unconscious but because of cognitive implications it is self conscious and separated while identifying with the 2 in essential, individual ways.
-------------------- You always want what you need, but do not always need what you want. People that do not want what they need, have a problem. Can we stop doing all of the things we are doing that we do not want to do while still doing what we need to do?
Edited by ChristopherABrown (08/18/16 10:04 PM)
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Alonzo
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain
Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?
Anywho just some things I'm pondering much love shroomery keep it shroomy
Tbh I don't know, I didn't create life, nature, or physics. I can speculate...
In this reality, there are different complexities and systems of life. Complex matter such as human beings can register with a consciousness, which is immaterial and possibly an extremely high frequency wave or signal that our technology is currently unable to detect. Your unique consciousness is bound and linked only to your body. This is why you have continued to wake up in your specific body all your life and hear/receive only your thoughts. (Individuals with bodily damages, defects, and impairments may have impaired consciousness for their current lifetime; treat them with respect and compassion). Other complex life such as plants and nonhuman animals also have a consciousness but theirs is not as refined as ours. At death, there is a 50% chance we (consciousness) cease to exist and a 50% chance we continue to exist in some form or fashion. I don't think anyone knows beyond a reasonable doubt what happens at death, but I believe Nature should allow us to continue in some form in another reality. Or perhaps the same reality or one similar. Physicalists, of course, claim the brain GENERATES consciousness. I say different. The brain is a processor. It PROCESSES data (like consciousness), which grants us our unique position and perspective, on a planet that hosts complex life (i.e. Earth). The brain is like a radio or insects' antennae. The purpose or use of consciousness through complex bodies is undefinable. Maybe it's for survival or stuff pertaining to evolution. But I don't think consciousness exists just to prolong a species. I think we (consciousness) exist to collect experiences and data, which would be like our nature.
Does an atom have consciousness? Yes, I think an atom can have consciousness. If an entity can make decisions or behave on its own, it must have some degree of consciousness. This means inanimate objects like chairs would be receiving some (maybe extremely small) amounts of consciousness.
Is there an experiment to find out if living/organic matter has consciousness? Some experiment could potentially be made. Somehow. I know this would be unethical, but perhaps we could take 100 human subjects, temporary kill them in a controlled environment by using an electrical device to stop their hearts, revive them, and determine how many of the subjects could view or interact with any body's disconnected consciousness. We can then follow up and see whether just any consciousness can connect with a human's body/brain and not just the original owner.
Does every human perceive everything differently? Yes because each of us is a unique, separate, subjective observer. Two men can look at the same portrAit of something and see two completely different things. Although what constitutes reality is generally a consensus among groups and cultures of people, people still perceive realize in thier own, individual way. Take into consideration congenitally blind and deaf people. Their perception would be exceptionally different than the regular adult. Congenitally deaf people may not even be able to think normally or at all because they can't hear language. So everyone's consciousness basically causes them to perceive reality differently. In dream realities, all consciousness perceives its environment in a unique way. We may even perceive consciousness of family and friends in dream realities. Consciousness can be in more than one place and time. But some realities (like the immediate one we're in now) bind consciousness to bodies more strongly than others so we may not remember much of the experiences we have in these alternate realities. This can also apply to past lives, which are also possible.
So this is my educated speculation. Hopefully it's good food for thought.
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Alonzo
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Re: Conciousness [Re: Alonzo]
#23555323 - 08/18/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oh btw unconsciousness could be the times when consciousness can't connect with a sophisticated body and will it about, like when your body is asleep.
EDIT actually now that I think about it, unconsciousness is another word for unaware. When your body moves unconsciously while asleep a consciousness is still directing it just not as intentionally and purposefully.
Subconsciousness could refer to the acquisition and demonstration of movements, thoughts, and ideas from forgotten memories, alternate realities and lives, and primal (i.e. monkey/animal) desires of the body. We could be like puppet masters of our individual bodies, but like the puppet wants to do its own thing. For example, you may want to stay awake but your body wants to sleep, so if your body wants to sleep then that's what it'll do and you'll just have to deal with that. Subconsciousness and consciousness could be like ying and yang. But the former might be pertinent only when you're in possession of a complex body.
Edited by Alonzo (08/19/16 10:05 AM)
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Into The Woods
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Registered: 04/20/13
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: All that gluons electrons neutrons quarks small particle business is an illusion. In reality, consciousness comes before mass-energy, not after. In the modern West, we tend to think that consciousness is the result of interactions of these fundamental entities. In point of fact, they are extensions or projections from a cosmic substratum that can only be called consciousness, or cosmic consciousness if you want. Consciousness is the most fundamental level in our universe. More fundamental than light and mass and the four forces and all that. There could be dimensions beyond it in the universe or in other universes things could be quite different. But at least in this universe, consciousness suffuses and gives rise to everything.

How did you come to this conclusion?
Interestingly, one of the most intelligent people on the planet, Christopher Langan who has a recorded IQ somewhere in the range of 195-210 and devised a cognitive-theoretical model of the universe, has said that to truly understand the universe, one must accept that it is both physical and mental in nature and I wonder if that was touching on the idea you've also presented (or I might be misinterpreting it).
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beforethedawn
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So studies of consciousness are based on subjects with ordinary consciousness; your average Joes.
The things higher consciousness supplies to the experiencer are not able to be studied; it is akin to studying "what do you see when you see red?"
However, the laboratory is just a special way to bring certain categories of information to CONSCIOUSNESS, the CONSCIOUSNESS of the scientist.
So you have consciousness ... and if yours is higher, then
You explore it ...
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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explore is good, staying calm is good, too much "if and then" when there is no clear connection, not so good.
explore and review the data
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_ 🧠 _
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Quote:
Into The Woods said: How did you come to this conclusion?
Interestingly, one of the most intelligent people on the planet, Christopher Langan who has a recorded IQ somewhere in the range of 195-210 and devised a cognitive-theoretical model of the universe, has said that to truly understand the universe, one must accept that it is both physical and mental in nature and I wonder if that was touching on the idea you've also presented (or I might be misinterpreting it).
Well, I suppose I've come to adopt these ideas over years of tripping, thinking, reading, reflecting and experiencing the connections that all of these reinforce in each other. These ideas have been developing in my mind since I was much younger. There are many writers and philosophers whose work resonates with my views, so that is quite heartening.
With regard to Mr. Langan, yes, that is a major component of the, for lack of a better word, idealist view. The universe has both matter-like and mind-like properties. In the secular, materialist west, we tend to emphasize the matter-like processes at the expense of the mind-like, and in places like India or Tibet historically it has been the opposite. I personally feel a balance between the two must exist, but in my own mind I highlight the mind-like aspects of reality, probably because most people in my society ignore them.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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zzripz
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain
Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?
Anywho just some things I'm pondering much love shroomery keep it shroomy
A good book I read is called Radical Nature: Rediscovering the Soul of Matter, by Christian De Qunicey He explores this subject from a philosophical angle, and concludes that consioucness 'goes all the way down' meaning that yes, all elements, from trees to quarks and beyond are sentient/aware/conscious. Because otherwise, the materialist position that consciousness is produced by complex matter/the brain requires a 'miracle'. For how could unconscious matter suddenly become conscious?!
mythically he is just stating what Goddess religion would understand anciently: That 'spirit' is immanent in 'matter'!
What tends to happen though in dualistic thinking is an either or scenerio: on one side those who think everything is matter and there is no spirit, or that there is only consciousness and 'matter' is some kind of illusion--the latter idea pushed by New Age beliefs
Edited by zzripz (08/19/16 11:54 AM)
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23556776 - 08/19/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nice post.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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blingbling
what you chicken stew?

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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain
It could be that consciousness is a fundamental part of the universe and is assembled the way atoms and other stuff is assembled. but as you said this can't be tested.
It could also be that different domains contain different possibilities. Kinda like how the quantum realm can do lots of wacky stuff but once you get to the realm of molecules and the rest these effects don't register. Maybe consciousness can only be registered on the neurological realm.
-------------------- Kupo said: let's fuel the robots with psilocybin. cez said: everyone should smoke dmt for religion. dustinthewind13 said: euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building. White Beard said: if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Then why are we conciousness?
The truth is that no one knows.
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Into The Woods
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Registered: 04/20/13
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It's nice to feel a little less alone and in turn, a little less out of my mind.
That being said, while my own understanding of reality differs, in that I wouldn't have used the word illusion, the nature of this kind of thinking still being quite similar, it's relieving to know that there are like-minded people out there.
But of course, there is only so much within our grasp of understanding at any given time and in my lifetime, a career in physics is the closest I will get to touching on that which can be understood of reality. It's the route of mapping the universe with closest thing to verifiable certainty. We do what we can with what we have.
Edited by Into The Woods (08/20/16 12:54 AM)
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zzripz
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Quote:
But of course, there is only so much within our grasp of understanding at any given time and in my lifetime, a career in physics is the closest I will get to touching on that which can be understood of reality.
I find it sad you think this way. It is giving up one's own sense of being up to the 'experts'--a modern version of the same about thinking trust in the authority of 'God'. Feeling (because your incoctrinated) such a 'sinner' and so unworthy that 'how could i ever know the 'mind of God'? Well this is what they also want to have us feel in their technocratic world--to trust that the 'experts' are closer to reality than 'po little me', and we are insignificant in comparison - The technocratic paradigm gives rise to faith in the rule of 'experts'
How do you not know that every sense of understanding isn't infinite?
Why is it not enough you are conscious
The so-called 'father of Permaculture', Bill Mollison, said this about physicists:
Quote:
Mollison: In the early 1970s, it dawned on me that no one had ever applied design to agriculture. When I realized it, the hairs went up on the back of my neck. It was so strange. We’d had agriculture for 7,000 years, and we’d been losing for 7,000 years — everything was turning into desert. So I wondered, can we build systems that obey ecological principles? We know what they are, we just never apply them. Ecologists never apply good ecology to their gardens. Architects never understand the transmission of heat in buildings. And physicists live in houses with demented energy systems. It’s curious that we never apply what we know to how we actually live.
Edited by zzripz (08/20/16 04:56 AM)
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Into The Woods
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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23559206 - 08/20/16 06:08 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's not giving it up at all. Through thorough examination of my own thought processes and pushing my mind to the point of peaks in existential crisis leading to complete mental breakdowns where I couldn't properly discern what is real and what is not over a period of years, trying to follow tangents past the point of valid certainty, across the thin line between intelligence and insanity, between imagination and delusion. I was only able to ground myself by observing what is generally considered to be collective objective reality. With profound difficulty through questioning, through pushing myself to try to explain notions with no traceable logic, I came to my own conclusion.
Physics is a rational philosophical way of observing and understanding quantifiable components of what makes up reality. Everything else holds no true substance, at least nothing with any magnitude. It is guesswork, hypothesis and nothing more. It's unreliable and uncertain unlike logic and the beautiful scientific method in it's rawest and most pure tried and true form.
I could drive myself mad with philosophical inquiry and ultimately uncertian pseudoscientific theoretical models of the universe and reality, or I could put my mind to use, use the tools at my disposal, spare myself intellectual embarrassment, and drive myself nuts by the book. When I reach those limits, then perhaps I can push the envelope on the limits of our knowledge and understanding of what shapes reality, extending our ever reaching grasp in the proper and credible way.
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Into The Woods
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And if I don't, at least I was part of the process. It gives my life meaning and direction, it gives me intellectual stimulation and satisfaction and will land me interesting places.
Or I could grind until I make enough capital to invest in a self sustaining vineyard and sit on my ass drinking wine and wishing I'd pursued other avenues in the short time I have.
I'll save the vineyard as a retirement plan.
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OrgoneConclusion
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--------------------
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


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That's one way of looking at it.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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That wasn't me. I am blaming the droogz.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
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Quote:
Into The Woods said: It's nice to feel a little less alone and in turn, a little less out of my mind.
That being said, while my own understanding of reality differs, in that I wouldn't have used the word illusion, the nature of this kind of thinking still being quite similar, it's relieving to know that there are like-minded people out there.
But of course, there is only so much within our grasp of understanding at any given time and in my lifetime, a career in physics is the closest I will get to touching on that which can be understood of reality. It's the route of mapping the universe with closest thing to verifiable certainty. We do what we can with what we have.
You have my full respect.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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consciousness = mechanics
but these mechanics are not fully understood.
mechanics, operations, of spacetime, light, gravity, radiation, motion, vacuum of nuclear and electro-magnetic forces versus strong and weak and extra weak forces, color of vibration to pressure and displacement, dark matter and dark energy, supraconductivity.
all these mechanics are consciousness at a more finite level than is currently able to be comprehended, and thus is insuperable, and seemingly unstable. either infinite and improvable, or provable to a finite degree, but the theory is never really found, the theory of everything. that thread, if you will, can either never be found, or it can simply be comprehended. we are all bodies that have crooks, creases, and crannies, we all have holes, we all have empty souls. past the soul -- the operations of our psyche, our bodies, our minds, and intellect, memories, instincts, we have the mechanics that unfold it. this is all found within the stew of quantum fields, that operate under the provision that they are laws.
these things can be used and explained, but not for a very long time.
consciousness is infinitely finite. on our plane our, at goldilocks zones, there is carbon life-forms all across the universe. on planes lower or higher than such, we cannot comprehend how consciousness is formed, because it has no thinking degree...like plants, we cannot comprehend their existence as a life-form, other than they feed on the suns rays. we see their intricacies as mechanical operations and not based on logical predicates but mechanical ones, unless you are a botanist, or biologist, perhaps, or are aware of these inherent complexities that arise in life.
consciousness can be said to be that which feeds, but what provided that we must feed, that's simply called evolution. consciousness can be said to drive evolution, as a natural process, but what governs the process? consciousness itself governs the process, by feeding on itself.
how do these innate laws balance themselves into any equation will be a long time telling.
things to not fall so much as they drop. but where is the drop? in bodies of supraconduction.
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Into The Woods
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Care to elaborate?
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akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


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you don't think i elaborated enough? i don't study physics, nor do i study cognitive sciences.
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


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Oh
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


Registered: 04/20/13
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Likewise, DQ.
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ruaware
Registered: 06/30/16
Posts: 383
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.
Edited by ruaware (12/05/16 11:35 PM)
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


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Re: Conciousness [Re: ruaware]
#23561853 - 08/21/16 12:31 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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If plants were conscious, I wonder if they'd freak the fuck out everytime there were bees coming.
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zzripz
Stranger


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Re: Conciousness [Re: ruaware]
#23562154 - 08/21/16 05:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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it isn't right
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viktor
psychotechnician



Registered: 11/03/10
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness?
Wrong way around, bro.
So if we are conscious, why atoms and gluons, electrons, neutrons, quarks and all that?
That is the question.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Re: Conciousness [Re: ruaware]
#23562389 - 08/21/16 08:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
ruaware said: I'm not claiming that this is right, i just made this up. I don't know if this is right. But it makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint.
It makes no sense at all from an evolutionary viewpoint. There is no reason for natural selection to favour consciousness.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


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Re: Conciousness [Re: viktor]
#23562401 - 08/21/16 08:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Unless that consciousness is intelligent enough to outsmart it's predators and environmental difficulties.
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viktor
psychotechnician



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Then that's intelligence, not consciousness
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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Into The Woods
Quarantine King


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Re: Conciousness [Re: viktor]
#23562417 - 08/21/16 09:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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In regards to what he was talking about, it's integral.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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memory recall and memory formation is integral to consciousness which streams together sensation with recollections.
nimble recollections with astute sensation (focus) is basically intelligence, but the flow of it all is consciousness: with some beings having more nimble mental activity than others.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Quote:
with some beings having more nimble mental activity than others.
Thank you for finally noticing!
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
with some beings having more nimble mental activity than others.
Thank you for finally noticing! 
All the same, it has no evolutionary impact until after your donation of sperm into the gene pool has had time to make a difference in the whole cloudy mess
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: So if were made up of atoms and gluons electrons neutrons quarks and all that small particle business, which is probably fundamentally space time and pure energy? I think? Then why are we conciousness? Does that mean a tree has conciousness to a degree? Or what about an atom? I know there is probably no way to accurately experiment this to find out but its fun to entertain
Also, does every human perceive everything differently? Like we both see the stop sign and it looks red and octagonal but is it really the same to me and you? Or the way a ripple hits water? Or the way a cloud coalesced?
Anywho just some things I'm pondering much love shroomery keep it shroomy
Consciousness is a result of the single Godheads dispersement.
Spirit can exist in anything which is composed of molecular level vibration or is capable of molecular level vibration. This more or less, covers everything that exists.
Spirit can accommodate the very air, manifesting by the playback of a musical recording in which the spirit was originally impressed upon. Music is significant component in what we regard as the 'zeitgeist' - the spirit of the time. Music doesn't just alter ones own spirit. It transmutates the original spirits vibrations to onself.
Likewise the vibration can be seen as visual flicker and physical spasm (fingers quite often) which occurs to the same frequency as the spiritual realm one wishes to enter. The same can be said of a shamanic drum which works predominantly with the lower levels.
It's all about vibration and frequency. The radio analogy in that we can tune into the bands of frequencies is probably the best in existance as a descriptor for this phenomenon.
Edited by Duncan Rowhl (08/21/16 01:17 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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cloudy mess goes with the territory
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
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lol.
And you guys thought I was crazeh.
That is some loose-associating schizophrenic word salad right thur.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
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Humans Meat Robots
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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ruaware
Registered: 06/30/16
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.
Edited by ruaware (12/05/16 11:35 PM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


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Re: Conciousness [Re: ruaware]
#23564399 - 08/21/16 10:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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All organisms are conscious but not all organisms have developed a conscience.
Everything down to viruses and their RNA are conscious in the sense that they have an external awareness and can respond rather than only react.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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laughingdog
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Some think consciousness comes before matter Some think matter comes before consciousness some wonder what it is some wonder why it is some think everything is conscious
but I wonder both: what it is that is conscious and how consciousness functions and changes constantly.
if there is no self, is consciousness even possible? if there is awareness of awareness, must there also be awareness of the self that is being aware??
there are those who want to say even atoms are conscious, but they are, mostly, space and made of elementary particles, whose speed is almost the speed of light, whose manifestation is probabilistic, and then even those particles, are made of even tinier quarks. What could it possibly mean to say they are conscious?
In any case at the scale of humans and animals. There is always a self associated with having some conscious awareness. Even in a dream, the dream self, experiences emotions, has goals, and responds to the story. (Amusingly we even have folks saying: " I had an experience of ego loss!")
So it seems to me not very useful to speculate, about 'ultimate reality' without grounding the discussion, in what humans normally experience.
Because when it comes to 'ultimate reality' folks take different view points, can't prove them and can't use those view points meaningfully. But if we look at what humans normally experience, we can find some useful data.
Since there is always a self associated with having some conscious awareness, we have a starting point.
if there is no self, is consciousness even possible? If one isn't sane, & misinterprets one's perceptions does that count as consciousness?
If a dog has been conditioned to salivate when Pavlov rings the bell, or a pigeon to peck a button to get grain by Skinner, to what degree is it meaningful to infer awareness? Much animal and human behavior is quite similar, and raises the same questions. (Many jobs tend to lower a persons consciousness.)
Scientists attempt to sort this out. From neurologists like Oliver Sacks, and V. S. Ramachandran, to experimenttal psychologists; but whether they start with the brain or behavior, there is always an associated person, self, and story.
So consciousness, as we experience it is tangled up with self, perception, memory, knowledge, environment, motivation or need, intelligence, and the abilities to concentrate and to discriminate subtle ongoing changes in our moment to moment awareness. Some of these factors are possible to cultivate and improve, and others we must accept.
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supremeshiva
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I'm pretty certain Alan Watts put forward the idea that everything is conciousness. When you hit a tree it gives off a sound, that sound would be very simple conciousness in his argument.
-------------------- Khali who is represented in the most terrible imagery. Khali has a toung hanging out long, drooling with blood. She has fanged teeth. She has a scimitar in one hand and a severed head in the other and she is trampling on the body of her husband who is Shiva.
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Into The Woods
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Sound waves. In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a medium such as air or water.
That's a pretty redundant argument.
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zzripz
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Quote:
supremeshiva said: I'm pretty certain Alan Watts put forward the idea that everything is conciousness. When you hit a tree it gives off a sound, that sound would be very simple conciousness in his argument.
but it is that attitude Alan would not agree with. the presumption humans (some) make that 'their consciousness' is so profoundly superior to a tree, a bird, a worm etc etc (ancient philosophers claimed consciousness was 'masculine' and superior to the feminine-- females, but also associated with the physical body, animals, and nature, and the unconscious)
just think though--without trees and bushes humans cannot live, without humans trees and bushes can live!
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supremeshiva
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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23579083 - 08/26/16 09:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Maybe I phrased myself wrong. Tree's have simple conciousness only because we compare them to us. When you go into to the nature of what a tree is im sure you will find the most marvelous organism and conciousness.
Also, maybe we can't see the tree for what it fully is. So when we tap the tree and it makes a noise that's the only thing that we percieve. The tree on the other hand might have an extraordinary reaction to this event. So I classified it as simple conciousness for two reasons. 1: I compare it to mine 2: I don't know what's happening inside of the tree like I do with me.
These kind of topics are really out of my league but I hope you understand what point im trying to put across.
-------------------- Khali who is represented in the most terrible imagery. Khali has a toung hanging out long, drooling with blood. She has fanged teeth. She has a scimitar in one hand and a severed head in the other and she is trampling on the body of her husband who is Shiva.
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zzripz
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yes.
I just do not feel 'consciousness' to be inside-the-head which is what eg current myth has claimed, eg the brain producing consciousness ('epiphenomenalism'). Alan Watts called this state of affairs, and what it causes people to feel: a 'skin encapsulated ego' As in, cut off from the environment.He would rather describe what 'we' are as an 'organism~environment'. In effect, you/tree/bird etc are the universe. There's this deeper relationship
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iiilil
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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23580658 - 08/26/16 04:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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 Quite the conversation going on in here....
There seems to be a lot of perspectives on this issue... Question : What happens when someone finds more definitive answers? What do you feel a more definitive answer will take the form of?
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supremeshiva
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Re: Conciousness [Re: iiilil]
#23581205 - 08/26/16 06:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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In this thread answering a question with a question seems more relevant than giving an answer . That being said, im a beginner at philosophy and study theology. I just tend to enjoy these conversations and see no need for it to be stopped. Even if the thread doesn't lead anywhere.
-------------------- Khali who is represented in the most terrible imagery. Khali has a toung hanging out long, drooling with blood. She has fanged teeth. She has a scimitar in one hand and a severed head in the other and she is trampling on the body of her husband who is Shiva.
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zzripz
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Re: Conciousness [Re: iiilil]
#23582487 - 08/27/16 04:32 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
iiilil said:
 Quite the conversation going on in here....
There seems to be a lot of perspectives on this issue... Question : What happens when someone finds more definitive answers? What do you feel a more definitive answer will take the form of?

to de-fine limits:
Quote:
define (v.) Look up define at Dictionary.com late 14c., "to specify; to end," from Old French defenir, definir "to finish, conclude, come to an end; bring to an end; define, determine with precision," and directly from Latin definire "to limit, determine, explain," from de- "completely" (see de-) + finire "to bound, limit," from finis "boundary, end" (see finish (v.)). Related: Defined; defining.
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iiilil
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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23583752 - 08/27/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
to de-fine limits:
Quote:
define (v.) Look up define at Dictionary.com late 14c., "to specify; to end," from Old French defenir, definir "to finish, conclude, come to an end; bring to an end; define, determine with precision," and directly from Latin definire "to limit, determine, explain," from de- "completely" (see de-) + finire "to bound, limit," from finis "boundary, end" (see finish (v.)). Related: Defined; defining.
There's something in there that stands out to me
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iiilil
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Quote:
MJCS said: An important note for how the brain produces conciousness it that the braincan withstand various types of electrical surges while maintaining memory and conciousness. The exact scientific data for this is interesting incuding taking a 9volt battery and touching it to your temples with no noticed effect (but dont do this. But if you do do this only make a worth the risk small experiment with a low current sorce like that during a high, but seriously dont do this.) Is a rate of average posts like this OK by the shroomery comunity? can you please email me with information on this. That canada keep exploring comercial is SO FUCKING SCARY (consider hidden messeges)
You'll probably enjoy this then : http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/ucla-scientists-use-ultrasound-to-jump-start-a-mans-brain-after-coma
Strides are being made in understanding. Things will be getting juicy before you know it
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iiilil
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Quote:
MJCS said: That post by me contained no mathematical 'mojo' whatsoever. This medication and poisoning is terrible.
yeah meng, i was wondering what was going on w/ the language. I was able to read past it though. You're good enjoy the article.
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: Conciousness [Re: hTx]
#23606693 - 09/03/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
hTx said:
Yes, I would say every human's perception is as unique as his/hers fingerprint.
This idea supports the perspective our experiences are special and unique.
Which creates a feeling of isolation and separateness.
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zzripz
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Quote:
RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:
hTx said:
Yes, I would say every human's perception is as unique as his/hers fingerprint.
This idea supports the perspective our experiences are special and unique.
Which creates a feeling of isolation and separateness.
How come? Why should uniqueness, diversity create isolation and separateness?
Every leaf growing from a tree are unique but they are also part of a unified organism
Every pebble on the beach, and so on
Diversity in unity, unity in diversity
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23607194 - 09/03/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
Why should uniqueness, diversity create isolation and separateness?
I'm not saying it should. Just that it does.
Just commenting on the trend of what often occurs.
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zzripz
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but surely it is conformity that does what you say?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23610288 - 09/04/16 06:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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isolation and separateness are key aspects of unsatisfactoriness which is the baseline of human experience. I think if you are aware of that you can do amazing work without any expectation
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RJ Tubs 202


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Re: Conciousness [Re: zzripz]
#23613061 - 09/04/16 10:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said:
but surely it is conformity that does what you say?
I think it's conformity to our conditioning and the associated illusions.
Thoughts and feelings of being special and unique tend to disassociate ourselves from others.
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connectedcosmos
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Interesting to read this after some time
I forgot about making it
What a wild ride
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 54. The true nature of things is to be known personally , through the eyes of clear illumination and not through a sage : what the moon exactly is , is to be known with one's own eyes ; can another make him know it?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
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Quote:
sudly said: All organisms are conscious but not all organisms have developed a conscience.
Everything down to viruses and their RNA are conscious in the sense that they have an external awareness and can respond rather than only react.
Was I wrong?
I'm fine to call a virus proto-conscious if their activity is purely the result of chemical reactions and not based on a response to say different levels of light.
But if they respond to touch, I may be comfortable removing 'proto'.
If it has a reaction that is a response, I consider it conscious.
Viniger on bicarb is a reaction on a reaction, not a response to a reaction.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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