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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself
#23552571 - 08/18/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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i have "made alot of compost piles. i have a huge one here that i use for vegetables. mushroom compost is a particular formula and it must be "turned" periodically to evenly distribute the composted material. obviously one must have the necessary outdoor space etc. you need a special type of pitchfork also. animal waste of some kind is used however i have done quite a bit of experimenting with heated straw only but this is very difficult very prone to contamination. you need to monitor the temperature of the pile with a special thermometer. keep it covered also with a good tarp. one can build relatively easily wooden boxes for growing with compost. the compost needs to be heated also before planting.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23552825 - 08/18/16 10:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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While compost can certainly be used to grow cubes most urban growers these days have little inclination to make their own. Instead we have turned to the use of coco coir. Coir used to be thought of only as a casing material but has now been shown to contain enough nutrition to support cubes very well. In fact my most recent side by sides have shown it to not only meet the results of manure, but actually exceed them.
Because of the easy prep nature of it (dump boiling water over a brick in a bucket), convenient storage (comes pressed into small bricks), and contamination resistance (does not need proper pasteurization as molds cannot germinate on it), most city dwellers prefer the use of it mixed with some vermiculite over most other substrates like manure, straw, and compost.
Though compost is great for agaricus. I'm sure many would welcome such insights for any agaricus projects. I would like to see you get more in depth on your composting methods as well.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23552899 - 08/18/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It seems as if we empericaly have found that grain contains all the nutritional value that the cubensis mycelium needs to grow.
Mistakenly it seems that people have long saught to increase the nutrients in a grow. But really we were never supplying enough water to let the grain's nutrition get to its full potential.
Substrate choice should be about getting the most out of your grain spawn. It seems coir is superior in "hydration availability"
So even if coir were to triple in price and cost 10$ for a 650g brick it would still be way way more worth it to me to use that than free manure or compost. Especially because you can skip proper pasteurization and just sterilise coir
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
Posts: 265
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23553504 - 08/18/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would still love to see a good pro made compost and coir side by side. This may be irrelevant for cubes since we dry them, but with both Agiricus species and Oyster species the nutrients affects the quality, taste, and shelf life of the fruits, as well as BE in those species. In particular Oysters have a far better taste, fruit quality, and shelf life grown from supplemented sawdust as opposed unsupplemented sawdust or straw. The grain also plays a huge nutritional role in that as well, except for the fact that we try to get away with littlest spawn rate possible which in the end saves a shit ton of money.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23554300 - 08/18/16 06:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paracelsusgold said: i have "made alot of compost piles. i have a huge one here that i use for vegetables. mushroom compost is a particular formula and it must be "turned" periodically to evenly distribute the composted material. obviously one must have the necessary outdoor space etc. you need a special type of pitchfork also. animal waste of some kind is used however i have done quite a bit of experimenting with heated straw only but this is very difficult very prone to contamination. you need to monitor the temperature of the pile with a special thermometer. keep it covered also with a good tarp. one can build relatively easily wooden boxes for growing with compost. the compost needs to be heated also before planting.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: While compost can certainly be used to grow cubes most urban growers these days have little inclination to make their own. Instead we have turned to the use of coco coir. Coir used to be thought of only as a casing material but has now been shown to contain enough nutrition to support cubes very well. In fact my most recent side by sides have shown it to not only meet the results of manure, but actually exceed them.
Because of the easy prep nature of it (dump boiling water over a brick in a bucket), convenient storage (comes pressed into small bricks), and contamination resistance (does not need proper pasteurization as molds cannot germinate on it), most city dwellers prefer the use of it mixed with some vermiculite over most other substrates like manure, straw, and compost.
Though compost is great for agaricus. I'm sure many would welcome such insights for any agaricus projects. I would like to see you get more in depth on your composting methods as well.
pasty i have used coir and ordered it on amazon a few times for my gardening. i used to make big compost piles for larger amounts of compost. i was not aware that it could be used for growing mushrooms and i understand it has certain definite benefits and i think i will try it. however it could get expensive if you wanted to grow alot of mushrooms, and composting, while more challenging certainly, would be appropriate if a grower was trying to operate more cost effectively; however making a compost pile is alot of work and the animal waste is a problem definitely.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23554320 - 08/18/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: It seems as if we empericaly have found that grain contains all the nutritional value that the cubensis mycelium needs to grow.
Mistakenly it seems that people have long saught to increase the nutrients in a grow. But really we were never supplying enough water to let the grain's nutrition get to its full potential.
Substrate choice should be about getting the most out of your grain spawn. It seems coir is superior in "hydration availability"
So even if coir were to triple in price and cost 10$ for a 650g brick it would still be way way more worth it to me to use that than free manure or compost. Especially because you can skip proper pasteurization and just sterilise coir
tc i used to use organic rye berries and sometimes rice,but mostly rye berries for the jars, and different agar/potato water formulas depending upon what mushroom i was trying to germinate in petri dishes. you can buy the rye berries in 25 lb bags.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23554366 - 08/18/16 06:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I buy oats in 50# bags for 12$
If you click the agar link in my signature and then the very first link you see in there you'll see what I have to say about agar
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23554729 - 08/18/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Coir is great at holding water and staying fluffy enough for air to penetrate, other than that it's 'nutrition' value is exceptionally low.
You can't culture anything on coir alone, it sits fermenting in ponds for 9 months before packaging, which takes the nutrients out of it, leaving a fiber with a high lignin content behind.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23554941 - 08/18/16 08:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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But the nutes are already present in the grains. IMO a bulk substrate with more nutes but less ability to hold water is inferior. My experience tells me that coir>manure. Most of the compost I have used (granted I never made my own) hold less water. The only material better than coir at holding water is straw. But I find spawning to straight straw to be tricky so I would mix it with coir anyways.
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23555037 - 08/18/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Agreed on the point about grains and h-poo etc, I just feel weird when I hear people say coir has 'nutrients'.
But straw doesn't hold more water than coir IME. Straw takes on about 3 grams of water for every 1 gram of dry weight at full hydration, not drained or squeezed. I've been dinking around with edibles recently so I've been into straw. I haven't weighed/measured coir in that sense for a while but I'd wager coir can match or beat that.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23555139 - 08/18/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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650gram brick gets 4kg of water
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23555184 - 08/18/16 09:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Aged straw out side works just as well as and compost mix the bigger advantage of straw compost is getting away with a higher spawn ratio like 1 to 10. If its economy still to make monotubes with 2 quarts of spawn 8 quarts of aged pasturated spawn and two quarts of coir to case. But its much more labor cost and time costed. I can fill a tub with spawn and coir for a dollor and half. Bricks of coir can be found cheap online the straw cased with coir tubes takes five hours of my time.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: tump]
#23555217 - 08/18/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Tell me more about these monotubes
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555227 - 08/18/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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When compost is free I see the benefit. I'm definitely starting a pile once I live somewhere more permanent. I probably won't use it for substrates though, more likely that I'll just shred spent substrates into it.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23555230 - 08/18/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Compost is great for plants and soil amendments but until coir is 20$ a brick its still going to be worth using coir for me at least
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555475 - 08/18/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Coir cost me 1.12 a brick if it was 20 bucks a brick compost be king. The straw is just a bale left outside to decay until ready to use. Still grind it up and pasteurization with lime and hot water bath. Half a bale makes 4 such monotubes. One brick of coir is pasturated and divide as a contam barrier over the tubes. I did this twice last spring. Not worth the time spend into it. You get big monster shrooms but few of them and they only get between 89 and 100 dry grams per tub. A min mono just got me 83 grams over two flushs that with straight coir.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: tump]
#23555741 - 08/19/16 01:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: While compost can certainly be used to grow cubes most urban growers these days have little inclination to make their own. Instead we have turned to the use of coco coir. Coir used to be thought of only as a casing material but has now been shown to contain enough nutrition to support cubes very well. In fact my most recent side by sides have shown it to not only meet the results of manure, but actually exceed them.
Because of the easy prep nature of it (dump boiling water over a brick in a bucket), convenient storage (comes pressed into small bricks), and contamination resistance (does not need proper pasteurization as molds cannot germinate on it), most city dwellers prefer the use of it mixed with some vermiculite over most other substrates like manure, straw, and compost.
Though compost is great for agaricus. I'm sure many would welcome such insights for any agaricus projects. I would like to see you get more in depth on your composting methods as well.
i have been reviewing this thread and there does seem to be disagreement here regarding the nutritional content of the coco and i thought that it was only used as a type of soil conditioner which is how i have used it with vegetables in larger pots or trees in pots still for water retention. i cannot imagine that it could be a substitute for organic rye berries or compost but if folks are getting results then i guess that is all that matters. i like to grow things as large as possible and so one proceeds from this desire to create the best possible environment for the mycelium to grow and fruit. i will continue to study these posts more.
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
Posts: 265
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23555750 - 08/19/16 01:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's a fascinating topic really, I would love to hear what you have to say about as you read about it more.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#23555761 - 08/19/16 02:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: It seems as if we empericaly have found that grain contains all the nutritional value that the cubensis mycelium needs to grow.
Mistakenly it seems that people have long saught to increase the nutrients in a grow. But really we were never supplying enough water to let the grain's nutrition get to its full potential.
Substrate choice should be about getting the most out of your grain spawn. It seems coir is superior in "hydration availability"
So even if coir were to triple in price and cost 10$ for a 650g brick it would still be way way more worth it to me to use that than free manure or compost. Especially because you can skip proper pasteurization and just sterilise coir
dear tc may i ask you what you consider to be "pasteurization" and "sterilization". i used to pasteurize the compost before planting in larger wooden boxes i used and i had a very large older ship type of a shipping container that i found in this basement i was using, and i converted this big wooden shipping container into a pasteurization box of sorts for these wooden boxes with compost i made, and i insulated it, and put a lightbulb in it, and a special thermometer with a long stem. if you did not do this you would get alot more mushroom flies which are bad news as you know. i would sterilize the rye berries however in the pressure cooker as you know. i would also cook the straw first in a 55 gal drum with a roofing asphalt burner connected to a smaller propane tank under it but i can't remember now how long or how hot but it did greatly increase the contamination rate as soon as you did that. i was trying to grow on straw only in these wooden boxes but i always got so much contamination i had to dump the straw. i was arrested when i was in the middle of these experiments trying to grow tampenensis which i believe my friend and mentor steve peele found the first and only one at that time and he sent me a free print i recall from that mushroom and i was eperimenting with fruiting it when i was busted. stay in touch and i am enjoying this correspondence alot and learning again after all these years.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#23555763 - 08/19/16 02:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: I buy oats in 50# bags for 12$
If you click the agar link in my signature and then the very first link you see in there you'll see what I have to say about agar
tc what do you use the oats for and also i used to use agar all the time in my petri dishes and i will check out what you say about agar.
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23555847 - 08/19/16 03:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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You use oats as grain spawn . oats are the new favorite because of the nutes are simlar to rye. Hard to burst the grain and by far easiest to break up. I've recently swicth form cracked corn to oats for such reasons. Off topic how long were you in for
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: tump]
#23555860 - 08/19/16 04:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yep, oats are a pretty great grain to use overall.

I did notice they seem to sometimes have more bacteria populations than some other grains like rye or wheat which can create some issues, but I think that's on a per-batch or per-season basis. I've used wheat recently.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23555944 - 08/19/16 05:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oats are used as spawn like you would use the rye berries.
Grain spawn is sterilized in jars then inoculated
100% colonized grain spawn is broken up and mixed with substrate
Substrate for cubensis traditionally was manure or straw. Coir was considering casing material only(casing layer)
Substrate like manure or straw must be pasteurized (140-160F core temp for 1 your is mycology pasteurization guidelines)
Coir however can be sterilized without contamination problem.
If you sterilised manure and spawned your grains to it you would never get mushrooms before contamination shows up
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555955 - 08/19/16 06:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't like oats because if your jar is partially colonized and you need to shake, they clump together too much. Maybe I preped it wrong? 
Burst grains are not something I worry about much with other grains... just cook em right and very few busrt, it's easy for me to hit that mark.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23555962 - 08/19/16 06:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Difficulty breaking up grains is a sign of bacteria, or improperly prepped grains. They shouldn't stick together without the presence of bacteria unless they were straight up starchy, in which case, you can soon expect the presence of bacteria. Basically grain clumping problems all go hand in hand.
Like I said though, endospore count in some of the oats I've tried using was so high I couldn't get agar to leap off onto freshly sterilized grain.
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23556009 - 08/19/16 06:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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The endospores haven't been to bad . even without bacteria problems cracked corn fully colonized is a bicth to break apart. Yeilds are less with oats for me. The plan soaking method works well for all grains beside wild bird seed . I'm sure op will come to ask soon.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: tump]
#23556098 - 08/19/16 07:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
tump said: You use oats as grain spawn . oats are the new favorite because of the nutes are simlar to rye. Hard to burst the grain and by far easiest to break up. I've recently swicth form cracked corn to oats for such reasons. Off topic how long were you in for
hello tump may I ask what the ratio is for water/oats as compared to water/grain? oats are cheaper probably. does the spawn become as contaminated as with rye grain? I served one year at downstate prison and fishkill prison (work release there) both across the hwy from each other close to the Hudson near the city and Poughkeepsie and two years on a tight leash probation and I couldn't do much without having to tell them and they could send me back anytime if they wanted for anything. a lot of fun.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23556103 - 08/19/16 07:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: I would still love to see a good pro made compost and coir side by side. This may be irrelevant for cubes since we dry them, but with both Agiricus species and Oyster species the nutrients affects the quality, taste, and shelf life of the fruits, as well as BE in those species. In particular Oysters have a far better taste, fruit quality, and shelf life grown from supplemented sawdust as opposed unsupplemented sawdust or straw. The grain also plays a huge nutritional role in that as well, except for the fact that we try to get away with littlest spawn rate possible which in the end saves a shit ton of money.
rooster how about the size of the shrooms? also what do you supplement the sawdust with?
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23556112 - 08/19/16 07:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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That sucks. Anyway oats win no matter how fix them. https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21121313/fpart/all/vc/1
The math on how much water they hold is herehttps://mycotopia.net/topic/95338-microbes-oat-prep-tek/
10quarts dry oats holds 45quarts of wet oats
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23556133 - 08/19/16 08:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: Yep, oats are a pretty great grain to use overall.

I did notice they seem to sometimes have more bacteria populations than some other grains like rye or wheat which can create some issues, but I think that's on a per-batch or per-season basis. I've used wheat recently.
may I please ask what you use as the water/oats ratio? I would intuitively think that oats would be more prone to contamination just because they are softer than the rye berries?
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23556144 - 08/19/16 08:08 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: Oats are used as spawn like you would use the rye berries.
Grain spawn is sterilized in jars then inoculated
100% colonized grain spawn is broken up and mixed with substrate
Substrate for cubensis traditionally was manure or straw. Coir was considering casing material only(casing layer)
Substrate like manure or straw must be pasteurized (140-160F core temp for 1 your is mycology pasteurization guidelines)
Coir however can be sterilized without contamination problem.
If you sterilised manure and spawned your grains to it you would never get mushrooms before contamination shows up
tc thanks for this info. i really never had much problem with contamination when i got to the planting of the rye berry spawn into whatever animal waste compost that i had made and pasteurized. the worst problem came when i inoculated the rye berries from the petri dishes. i found that the more carefully everything was done and the stronger the strain one was able to isolate in the dishes for transfer, the better everything would work. and i would also put in enough spawn to grow out relatively quickly.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23556161 - 08/19/16 08:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
invitro said: Coir is great at holding water and staying fluffy enough for air to penetrate, other than that it's 'nutrition' value is exceptionally low.
You can't culture anything on coir alone, it sits fermenting in ponds for 9 months before packaging, which takes the nutrients out of it, leaving a fiber with a high lignin content behind.
invitro what conclusions can we come to based on these facts? i would really never have thought that one could fruit a mushroom on this coco but apparently folks are doing it?
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23556232 - 08/19/16 08:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paracelsusgold said: i like to grow things as large as possible and so one proceeds from this desire to create the best possible environment for the mycelium to grow and fruit. i will continue to study these posts more.
Large. Like this?
   
Those were all grown on coir based substrates. The grain spawn used for those varied because I use several different grains depending on the time of year and price. I grew on wheat and oats for ages cause I got them free. Fruit size is dependent on genetics and available water for the most part. But big fruits is not the same as big yield. I would rather have a canopy of 35 gram fruits that totaled 3000 grams than a sparse pinset of 100 gram fruits that totalled 1000 grams. Yield is the true result.
Again wheat spawned to coir/verm
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23556411 - 08/19/16 10:24 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm actually not really sure about water ratios for oats, or any grain for that matter. I usually prep them visually and then load them in the jars after I've checked the inside of them. The outer hull of oats seems to serve as a benefit by sort of shielding the inner mycelium that's colonized the interior of the grain. This seems to lead to oats having a fast recovery time after being shaken or spawned to bulk substrate.
I don't know if it's necessarily the softness of the grain, but all I can say is I did have to move away from oats after I started getting an unbeatable bacterial takeover in every jar. I presently use wheat, prepared much the same way. Both prepared just by simmering the grains and occasionally checking for internal moisture. Takes about 30 minutes on average.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23556426 - 08/19/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah oats are tricky with the bacteria. I had some issues as well. Best results were with LC presumably because I was able to achieve super fast colonization and manage to spawn before the window closed. But wheat rye and millet are my favorites.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23556428 - 08/19/16 10:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Still haven't tried millet by itself. As I understand it, it's one of the harder grains to get moisture content right with, correct? Wheat though, I am a huge fan of now, and I haven't used rye in years but I'm sure it's fine too.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23556453 - 08/19/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's a little trickier but I have it so down now I don't even think about it.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23556531 - 08/19/16 11:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I do 120m at 17-18psi with oats never noticed a problem in the last 75 pounds I've used
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23556539 - 08/19/16 11:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: I'm actually not really sure about water ratios for oats, or any grain for that matter. I usually prep them visually and then load them in the jars after I've checked the inside of them. The outer hull of oats seems to serve as a benefit by sort of shielding the inner mycelium that's colonized the interior of the grain. This seems to lead to oats having a fast recovery time after being shaken or spawned to bulk substrate.
I don't know if it's necessarily the softness of the grain, but all I can say is I did have to move away from oats after I started getting an unbeatable bacterial takeover in every jar. I presently use wheat, prepared much the same way. Both prepared just by simmering the grains and occasionally checking for internal moisture. Takes about 30 minutes on average.
inoc: thanks for this info. i can provide if you want with exact water/rye berry ratios for qt mason jars and some other grains also. i have found that the exact water content makes the grain just right after sterilization.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23556563 - 08/19/16 11:32 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: I do 120m at 17-18psi with oats never noticed a problem in the last 75 pounds I've used
Depends a lot on farming practice I suspect. I had batches that were very clean. Others were a disaster even with 20 psi for 150 min.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23556608 - 08/19/16 11:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
paracelsusgold said: i like to grow things as large as possible and so one proceeds from this desire to create the best possible environment for the mycelium to grow and fruit. i will continue to study these posts more.
Large. Like this?
   
Those were all grown on coir based substrates. The grain spawn used for those varied because I use several different grains depending on the time of year and price. I grew on wheat and oats for ages cause I got them free. Fruit size is dependent on genetics and available water for the most part. But big fruits is not the same as big yield. I would rather have a canopy of 35 gram fruits that totaled 3000 grams than a sparse pinset of 100 gram fruits that totalled 1000 grams. Yield is the true result.
Again wheat spawned to coir/verm

pasty thanks for the nice photos. perhaps fruit size is dependent on other factors besides the ones you mentioned like substrate type and amount.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23556675 - 08/19/16 12:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well substrate type counts a little but really most of the nutrition comes from the grain. I have run side by sides that were controlled which demonstrate that with bulk substrates water content matters more than nutrition.
If you are using a super low spawn ratio then more nutes may be desireable. But really you will see better yield per fruiting space available in fewer flushes with higher spawn ratios.
Fruiting space is as important a factor IMO as cost or time. I run one flush wonders with coir and with a good clone often see 500+ grams first flush per quart of spawn. An overall bio efficiency of 150-200% first flush. At a lower spawn ratio with higher bulk nute value you may see a little more punch for the spawn used, but not much and it takes more space and more flushes to see.
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23556931 - 08/19/16 01:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paracelsusgold said: invitro what conclusions can we come to based on these facts? i would really never have thought that one could fruit a mushroom on this coco but apparently folks are doing it?
Coir is a proven winner as a bulk substrate.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23556977 - 08/19/16 01:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oat spawn Coir substrate
4 quarts spawn (2 AA+ 2 ESS hence the split tub) 54 quart tub. 1 650g brick of coir. First flush yield 5.5 dry ounces
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (08/19/16 01:52 PM)
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23557001 - 08/19/16 02:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paracelsusgold said:
Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: I would still love to see a good pro made compost and coir side by side. This may be irrelevant for cubes since we dry them, but with both Agiricus species and Oyster species the nutrients affects the quality, taste, and shelf life of the fruits, as well as BE in those species. In particular Oysters have a far better taste, fruit quality, and shelf life grown from supplemented sawdust as opposed unsupplemented sawdust or straw. The grain also plays a huge nutritional role in that as well, except for the fact that we try to get away with littlest spawn rate possible which in the end saves a shit ton of money.
rooster how about the size of the shrooms? also what do you supplement the sawdust with?
I use wheat bran for supplementing sawdust, and like I was saying with the oysters, the quality of the fruits are affected, bigger, plumper, heavier and even way better taste and shelf life. With cubensis I have only used coir, and on this site I have seen coir kick manures ass, but I have never seen coir up against proper mushroom compost. The thing about the coir is the ease of preparation and what you get out of it compared to the labor of preparing other substrates, but after a while of growing those things on coir, I have to wonder how an extra boost of nutrition affects the size and quality of cubensis fruits.
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bodhisatta 
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Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557008 - 08/19/16 02:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Size is largely genetics and environmental.
Quality may go up with different substrate but most people are not cooking cubes into their meals. Try get dried out and choked down with liquor
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#23557065 - 08/19/16 02:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Dude, I totally judge my cube grows by their taste, and they all suck!
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557075 - 08/19/16 02:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cubes taste good prepared for food but fresh or dried pretty much every edible would be equally disgusting
Fry fresh cubes up in butter way better
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23557094 - 08/19/16 02:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's funny you mention that, I recently had to clean out my grow room with a bunch of oysters bags mid fruiting and knew I wouldnt be able to get the farmers market that week anyways, so I had a friend come pick them up and he just threw them into a little room in his house with a swamp cooler, he ended up drying all of the fruits and uses them in every fucking meal, he loves them, I told him they taste like shit, but to each their own, then ironicly a few days later at my major grocery store near the mushrooms in the produce was a bag of fucking dried oysters in 1 ounce bags for 6 bucks! WTF.
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bodhisatta 
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Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557097 - 08/19/16 02:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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They're fine dried, oysters, you have to reconstitute them and still cook though
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23557104 - 08/19/16 02:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not a fan of regular oysters anyways, Im an eryngii snob when it comes to cuisine, second to that would be Agiricus Blazei. But I have never had the urge to dry any for storage, if they start to go before I can get rid of them they just go to the chickens.
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bodhisatta 
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Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557113 - 08/19/16 02:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Morels are usually dried to increase their flavors.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557239 - 08/19/16 03:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said:
Quote:
paracelsusgold said:
Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: I would still love to see a good pro made compost and coir side by side. This may be irrelevant for cubes since we dry them, but with both Agiricus species and Oyster species the nutrients affects the quality, taste, and shelf life of the fruits, as well as BE in those species. In particular Oysters have a far better taste, fruit quality, and shelf life grown from supplemented sawdust as opposed unsupplemented sawdust or straw. The grain also plays a huge nutritional role in that as well, except for the fact that we try to get away with littlest spawn rate possible which in the end saves a shit ton of money.
rooster how about the size of the shrooms? also what do you supplement the sawdust with?
I use wheat bran for supplementing sawdust, and like I was saying with the oysters, the quality of the fruits are affected, bigger, plumper, heavier and even way better taste and shelf life. With cubensis I have only used coir, and on this site I have seen coir kick manures ass, but I have never seen coir up against proper mushroom compost. The thing about the coir is the ease of preparation and what you get out of it compared to the labor of preparing other substrates, but after a while of growing those things on coir, I have to wonder how an extra boost of nutrition affects the size and quality of cubensis fruits.
rooster may i ask how you would describe a manure compost as you have alluded to? what would be the difference between a manure compost and a "proper mushroom compost"?
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557249 - 08/19/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: Dude, I totally judge my cube grows by their taste, and they all suck!
when it comes to taste of them you are a mycophobe apparently?
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23557275 - 08/19/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Woodears too.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23557282 - 08/19/16 03:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: Oat spawn Coir substrate
4 quarts spawn (2 AA+ 2 ESS hence the split tub) 54 quart tub. 1 650g brick of coir. First flush yield 5.5 dry ounces

tc looks good to say the least. the oat bran seemingly works fine with the coco. are you using the coir as the casing primarily or mixing it in with the oats as well? are those amazonians? may i please ask what AA and ESS mean?
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557293 - 08/19/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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No I was joking, though a dried cube isn't my favorite taste in the world. I will admit before I got into growing cubes I was a huge mycophobe, and just the nature of the hobby brought me into gourmet mushrooms and opened up my palate.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23557320 - 08/19/16 03:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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AA+ = albino A+, a leucistic cube.
ESS = envy super strain. A cube cross between penis envy and koh samui super strain.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23557376 - 08/19/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23557511 - 08/19/16 05:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: It's not oat bran its oats
http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/producers-pride-oats-50-lb?cm_mmc%3DSEM-_-Google-_-DynamicAdGroups-_-AllSiteTSCMobileFreeShipStore&gclid=CNbG1IPAzs4CFYU1aQodZykOag
Mixed evenly with coir. No casing. Coir is the substrate oats are the spawn.
tc thanks for clarifying this and it is interesting that it needs no casing. i found a seemingly good newer 2015 book on amazon on magic mushroom cultivation in bulk; i think i'll order it. new for 13.00 with shipping. the author had a madeup name like latin but i cannot remember it and it did look like it might be an enlightening book.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23557527 - 08/19/16 05:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Casing is not required in the way that it is for agaricus however I have found that it's still beneficial for cubes and some cultures will prefer one. Of course I have also found cultures that dislike casing so if one is working with stable genetics it's prudent to run them on many substrates/different configurations, etc because what might do crappy in bottles might kick ass in a mono.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23557579 - 08/19/16 05:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm sure that book you found is chock full of garbage info.
The number one problem we have here is people getting their cultivation info from shitty books like that. Then having to un-teach them.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23557617 - 08/19/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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This place is the best resource for stuff. People here not only are actively working on things but also source and reference specialized peer reviewed science constantly. As a living breathing constantly evolving resource the shroomery is hard to beat.
Sometimes new people don't like the blunt method most people here use to express themselves. But it's never personal, it's always about advancing the hobby.
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23558451 - 08/19/16 09:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Agreed sometimes flukes happen with grain jars. Thats why people tend to stick with there favorite until 100pounds of grains go south. So if i was starting out again i just look for the cheapest grain i could get unlimited supply of.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23558782 - 08/19/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: I'm sure that book you found is chock full of garbage info.
The number one problem we have here is people getting their cultivation info from shitty books like that. Then having to un-teach them.
dear tc perhaps you are being a bit prematurely critical? the book appeared to be good to me> i will order it today and then when i get it i will inform you of its contents and we shall see what you think. i do understand what you mean however in general.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23558787 - 08/19/16 11:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: This place is the best resource for stuff. People here not only are actively working on things but also source and reference specialized peer reviewed science constantly. As a living breathing constantly evolving resource the shroomery is hard to beat.
Sometimes new people don't like the blunt method most people here use to express themselves. But it's never personal, it's always about advancing the hobby.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: This place is the best resource for stuff. People here not only are actively working on things but also source and reference specialized peer reviewed science constantly. As a living breathing constantly evolving resource the shroomery is hard to beat.
Sometimes new people don't like the blunt method most people here use to express themselves. But it's never personal, it's always about advancing the hobby.
pasty i wholeheartedly agree with you
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23558795 - 08/19/16 11:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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 i understand and that makes sense. casing is a refinement that can be challenging.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23558923 - 08/20/16 01:05 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: It's a fascinating topic really, I would love to hear what you have to say about as you read about it more.
rooster i love making compost piles. i have two here one is getting huge. say brother may i ask you where a fellow would secure one of high powered new cubies prints like aa? 
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bodhisatta 
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Registered: 04/30/13
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Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23559567 - 08/20/16 10:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Most cultivation books other than the old classics are wrote by book writers not cultivators. Just someone who wanted to write a book to get a check now and then and happened to know something about cultivation.
Assuming this book is about cubensis specifically Most of the time those books say things like Incubators are great you want 80+F (even tho room temp 65-75 is ideal for cubensis) Complete darkness is good for colonization (nope) Don't mist your cakes directly (because that makes sense...) Cubes want 99% humidity (this is a complicated one since they want a surface humidity that high but the ambient air in the fruiting chamber should not be that saturated with moisture) Etc...
9 times out of 10 if a noob starts with a book or YouTube they come here posting why is my grow not working
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23559606 - 08/20/16 10:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paracelsusgold said:
Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: It's a fascinating topic really, I would love to hear what you have to say about as you read about it more.
rooster i love making compost piles. i have two here one is getting huge. say brother may i ask you where a fellow would secure one of high powered new cubies prints like aa?  
You can try a shroomery sponsor and buy a spore syringe or wait another 2 months and make a post in the marketplace. Or maybe a generous shroomery member will pm you and be nice enough to send you a print!
--------------------
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: natedawgnow]
#23560894 - 08/20/16 06:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
natedawgnow said:
Quote:
paracelsusgold said:
Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said: It's a fascinating topic really, I would love to hear what you have to say about as you read about it more.
rooster i love making compost piles. i have two here one is getting huge. say brother may i ask you where a fellow would secure one of high powered new cubies prints like aa?  
You can try a shroomery sponsor and buy a spore syringe or wait another 2 months and make a post in the marketplace. Or maybe a generous shroomery member will pm you and be nice enough to send you a print!
nate there you are again. may i ask what the two month thing is all about? i just gave you a 5 star rating and i see that many others feel the same way. what is a shroomery sponsor? i like prints not syringes. what is the marketplace? 
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
Posts: 8,939
Loc: ation
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23560999 - 08/20/16 07:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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The marketplace is a forum on here where shroomery members who have been here at least 90 days with 50 posts can trade items of all kinds, including spore prints.
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