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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself
#23552571 - 08/18/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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i have "made alot of compost piles. i have a huge one here that i use for vegetables. mushroom compost is a particular formula and it must be "turned" periodically to evenly distribute the composted material. obviously one must have the necessary outdoor space etc. you need a special type of pitchfork also. animal waste of some kind is used however i have done quite a bit of experimenting with heated straw only but this is very difficult very prone to contamination. you need to monitor the temperature of the pile with a special thermometer. keep it covered also with a good tarp. one can build relatively easily wooden boxes for growing with compost. the compost needs to be heated also before planting.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23552825 - 08/18/16 10:14 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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While compost can certainly be used to grow cubes most urban growers these days have little inclination to make their own. Instead we have turned to the use of coco coir. Coir used to be thought of only as a casing material but has now been shown to contain enough nutrition to support cubes very well. In fact my most recent side by sides have shown it to not only meet the results of manure, but actually exceed them.
Because of the easy prep nature of it (dump boiling water over a brick in a bucket), convenient storage (comes pressed into small bricks), and contamination resistance (does not need proper pasteurization as molds cannot germinate on it), most city dwellers prefer the use of it mixed with some vermiculite over most other substrates like manure, straw, and compost.
Though compost is great for agaricus. I'm sure many would welcome such insights for any agaricus projects. I would like to see you get more in depth on your composting methods as well.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23552899 - 08/18/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It seems as if we empericaly have found that grain contains all the nutritional value that the cubensis mycelium needs to grow.
Mistakenly it seems that people have long saught to increase the nutrients in a grow. But really we were never supplying enough water to let the grain's nutrition get to its full potential.
Substrate choice should be about getting the most out of your grain spawn. It seems coir is superior in "hydration availability"
So even if coir were to triple in price and cost 10$ for a 650g brick it would still be way way more worth it to me to use that than free manure or compost. Especially because you can skip proper pasteurization and just sterilise coir
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
Posts: 265
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23553504 - 08/18/16 02:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would still love to see a good pro made compost and coir side by side. This may be irrelevant for cubes since we dry them, but with both Agiricus species and Oyster species the nutrients affects the quality, taste, and shelf life of the fruits, as well as BE in those species. In particular Oysters have a far better taste, fruit quality, and shelf life grown from supplemented sawdust as opposed unsupplemented sawdust or straw. The grain also plays a huge nutritional role in that as well, except for the fact that we try to get away with littlest spawn rate possible which in the end saves a shit ton of money.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23554300 - 08/18/16 06:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
paracelsusgold said: i have "made alot of compost piles. i have a huge one here that i use for vegetables. mushroom compost is a particular formula and it must be "turned" periodically to evenly distribute the composted material. obviously one must have the necessary outdoor space etc. you need a special type of pitchfork also. animal waste of some kind is used however i have done quite a bit of experimenting with heated straw only but this is very difficult very prone to contamination. you need to monitor the temperature of the pile with a special thermometer. keep it covered also with a good tarp. one can build relatively easily wooden boxes for growing with compost. the compost needs to be heated also before planting.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: While compost can certainly be used to grow cubes most urban growers these days have little inclination to make their own. Instead we have turned to the use of coco coir. Coir used to be thought of only as a casing material but has now been shown to contain enough nutrition to support cubes very well. In fact my most recent side by sides have shown it to not only meet the results of manure, but actually exceed them.
Because of the easy prep nature of it (dump boiling water over a brick in a bucket), convenient storage (comes pressed into small bricks), and contamination resistance (does not need proper pasteurization as molds cannot germinate on it), most city dwellers prefer the use of it mixed with some vermiculite over most other substrates like manure, straw, and compost.
Though compost is great for agaricus. I'm sure many would welcome such insights for any agaricus projects. I would like to see you get more in depth on your composting methods as well.
pasty i have used coir and ordered it on amazon a few times for my gardening. i used to make big compost piles for larger amounts of compost. i was not aware that it could be used for growing mushrooms and i understand it has certain definite benefits and i think i will try it. however it could get expensive if you wanted to grow alot of mushrooms, and composting, while more challenging certainly, would be appropriate if a grower was trying to operate more cost effectively; however making a compost pile is alot of work and the animal waste is a problem definitely.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23554320 - 08/18/16 06:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: It seems as if we empericaly have found that grain contains all the nutritional value that the cubensis mycelium needs to grow.
Mistakenly it seems that people have long saught to increase the nutrients in a grow. But really we were never supplying enough water to let the grain's nutrition get to its full potential.
Substrate choice should be about getting the most out of your grain spawn. It seems coir is superior in "hydration availability"
So even if coir were to triple in price and cost 10$ for a 650g brick it would still be way way more worth it to me to use that than free manure or compost. Especially because you can skip proper pasteurization and just sterilise coir
tc i used to use organic rye berries and sometimes rice,but mostly rye berries for the jars, and different agar/potato water formulas depending upon what mushroom i was trying to germinate in petri dishes. you can buy the rye berries in 25 lb bags.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23554366 - 08/18/16 06:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I buy oats in 50# bags for 12$
If you click the agar link in my signature and then the very first link you see in there you'll see what I have to say about agar
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23554729 - 08/18/16 08:03 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Coir is great at holding water and staying fluffy enough for air to penetrate, other than that it's 'nutrition' value is exceptionally low.
You can't culture anything on coir alone, it sits fermenting in ponds for 9 months before packaging, which takes the nutrients out of it, leaving a fiber with a high lignin content behind.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23554941 - 08/18/16 08:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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But the nutes are already present in the grains. IMO a bulk substrate with more nutes but less ability to hold water is inferior. My experience tells me that coir>manure. Most of the compost I have used (granted I never made my own) hold less water. The only material better than coir at holding water is straw. But I find spawning to straight straw to be tricky so I would mix it with coir anyways.
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invitro


Registered: 05/03/13
Posts: 2,529
Last seen: 1 month, 21 days
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23555037 - 08/18/16 09:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Agreed on the point about grains and h-poo etc, I just feel weird when I hear people say coir has 'nutrients'.
But straw doesn't hold more water than coir IME. Straw takes on about 3 grams of water for every 1 gram of dry weight at full hydration, not drained or squeezed. I've been dinking around with edibles recently so I've been into straw. I haven't weighed/measured coir in that sense for a while but I'd wager coir can match or beat that.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23555139 - 08/18/16 09:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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650gram brick gets 4kg of water
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: invitro]
#23555184 - 08/18/16 09:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Aged straw out side works just as well as and compost mix the bigger advantage of straw compost is getting away with a higher spawn ratio like 1 to 10. If its economy still to make monotubes with 2 quarts of spawn 8 quarts of aged pasturated spawn and two quarts of coir to case. But its much more labor cost and time costed. I can fill a tub with spawn and coir for a dollor and half. Bricks of coir can be found cheap online the straw cased with coir tubes takes five hours of my time.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: tump]
#23555217 - 08/18/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Tell me more about these monotubes
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555227 - 08/18/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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When compost is free I see the benefit. I'm definitely starting a pile once I live somewhere more permanent. I probably won't use it for substrates though, more likely that I'll just shred spent substrates into it.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: Inocuole]
#23555230 - 08/18/16 10:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Compost is great for plants and soil amendments but until coir is 20$ a brick its still going to be worth using coir for me at least
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tump
ban the undead



Registered: 03/17/16
Posts: 2,383
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555475 - 08/18/16 11:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Coir cost me 1.12 a brick if it was 20 bucks a brick compost be king. The straw is just a bale left outside to decay until ready to use. Still grind it up and pasteurization with lime and hot water bath. Half a bale makes 4 such monotubes. One brick of coir is pasturated and divide as a contam barrier over the tubes. I did this twice last spring. Not worth the time spend into it. You get big monster shrooms but few of them and they only get between 89 and 100 dry grams per tub. A min mono just got me 83 grams over two flushs that with straight coir.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: tump]
#23555741 - 08/19/16 01:41 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: While compost can certainly be used to grow cubes most urban growers these days have little inclination to make their own. Instead we have turned to the use of coco coir. Coir used to be thought of only as a casing material but has now been shown to contain enough nutrition to support cubes very well. In fact my most recent side by sides have shown it to not only meet the results of manure, but actually exceed them.
Because of the easy prep nature of it (dump boiling water over a brick in a bucket), convenient storage (comes pressed into small bricks), and contamination resistance (does not need proper pasteurization as molds cannot germinate on it), most city dwellers prefer the use of it mixed with some vermiculite over most other substrates like manure, straw, and compost.
Though compost is great for agaricus. I'm sure many would welcome such insights for any agaricus projects. I would like to see you get more in depth on your composting methods as well.
i have been reviewing this thread and there does seem to be disagreement here regarding the nutritional content of the coco and i thought that it was only used as a type of soil conditioner which is how i have used it with vegetables in larger pots or trees in pots still for water retention. i cannot imagine that it could be a substitute for organic rye berries or compost but if folks are getting results then i guess that is all that matters. i like to grow things as large as possible and so one proceeds from this desire to create the best possible environment for the mycelium to grow and fruit. i will continue to study these posts more.
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
Posts: 265
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: paracelsusgold]
#23555750 - 08/19/16 01:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's a fascinating topic really, I would love to hear what you have to say about as you read about it more.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#23555761 - 08/19/16 02:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: It seems as if we empericaly have found that grain contains all the nutritional value that the cubensis mycelium needs to grow.
Mistakenly it seems that people have long saught to increase the nutrients in a grow. But really we were never supplying enough water to let the grain's nutrition get to its full potential.
Substrate choice should be about getting the most out of your grain spawn. It seems coir is superior in "hydration availability"
So even if coir were to triple in price and cost 10$ for a 650g brick it would still be way way more worth it to me to use that than free manure or compost. Especially because you can skip proper pasteurization and just sterilise coir
dear tc may i ask you what you consider to be "pasteurization" and "sterilization". i used to pasteurize the compost before planting in larger wooden boxes i used and i had a very large older ship type of a shipping container that i found in this basement i was using, and i converted this big wooden shipping container into a pasteurization box of sorts for these wooden boxes with compost i made, and i insulated it, and put a lightbulb in it, and a special thermometer with a long stem. if you did not do this you would get alot more mushroom flies which are bad news as you know. i would sterilize the rye berries however in the pressure cooker as you know. i would also cook the straw first in a 55 gal drum with a roofing asphalt burner connected to a smaller propane tank under it but i can't remember now how long or how hot but it did greatly increase the contamination rate as soon as you did that. i was trying to grow on straw only in these wooden boxes but i always got so much contamination i had to dump the straw. i was arrested when i was in the middle of these experiments trying to grow tampenensis which i believe my friend and mentor steve peele found the first and only one at that time and he sent me a free print i recall from that mushroom and i was eperimenting with fruiting it when i was busted. stay in touch and i am enjoying this correspondence alot and learning again after all these years.
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paracelsusgold

Registered: 08/15/16
Posts: 173
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Re: composting is a great challenge for the urban dweller especially and is a science in itself [Re: bodhisatta] 1
#23555763 - 08/19/16 02:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: I buy oats in 50# bags for 12$
If you click the agar link in my signature and then the very first link you see in there you'll see what I have to say about agar
tc what do you use the oats for and also i used to use agar all the time in my petri dishes and i will check out what you say about agar.
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