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Psilosopherr
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Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants 1
#23550395 - 08/17/16 04:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Been wondering if this was possible for a while now. Anybody ever heard of this concept being tested or have thoughts on why it wouldn't/might work? The only potential benefit I see it having is more resistance to contams in the grow room. I don't have a clue how immune systems in fungi compare to ours, I've simply been reading about smallpox this morning. (did you know the first known vaccination practice involved the powdering and snorting of smallpox scabs in ancient china? chinese people are fucking awesome )
The proposed procedure is simply let a petri dish sit open for a while and contaminate, then kill the contams with heat/PC or attenuate them somehow before sporulation occurs. Then aseptically add a wedge of this to a clean culture. The idea is that the byproducts produced by the contaminates will promote an immune response in the mycelium, since it has spent practically its whole life in sterile environments it might be advantageous to "get it ready for the world," before spawning to open air. 
Probly just another of my wacky yet useless ideas, but hopefully you at least found it interesting.
Edited by Psilosopherr (08/17/16 05:22 PM)
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La Flama Blanca
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23550401 - 08/17/16 04:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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extremely interesting. gonna stalk this thread
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mindbentempire



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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: La Flama Blanca]
#23550582 - 08/17/16 05:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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SoulButter
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mindbentempire]
#23551057 - 08/17/16 07:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I like the thinking here. Try it out! or check google scholar for breeding resistance in fungi. I will check some time tomorrow as well.
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: SoulButter] 1
#23551108 - 08/17/16 08:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Contaminates don't ususally occur on mycelium....They occur on the substrate mycelium is trying to colonize.
Wouldn't a better idea be to train mycelium to consume mold?
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23551190 - 08/17/16 08:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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thats a good idea, though this may or may not accomplish the same thing
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IlBLisSlI
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23551209 - 08/17/16 08:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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any suggestions as to how to train mycelium to accomplish such a feat? very interesting thread indeed. #following
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: IlBLisSlI]
#23551489 - 08/17/16 10:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not sure what your getting at with the whole vacination thing..,,
Aside from training myc to consume mold you might also be able to make mycelium mold resistant by allowing it to contaminate and then isolating away from the mold for a few successive generations....but i really dont have the background for this. Its just a thought.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: PsilocyBen17] 1
#23551632 - 08/17/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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If it was do easy to train cultures to eat contams do you not think that the multibillon dollar gourmet and medicinal industries would be all over that. It's like trying to train dogs to kill Burmese Pythons. Sure they might give it a good old college try. But all you end up with is dead dogs.
The easiest way to deal with contamination is to not have it.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23551709 - 08/17/16 11:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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"If it was possible somebody would have done it by now" is not an argument I'm a fan of. Though you would think somebody would have thought of this one.
Hard to find documentation of things that don't work though
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23551729 - 08/17/16 11:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: "If it was possible somebody would have done it by now" is not an argument I'm a fan of. Though you would think somebody would have thought of this one.
Hard to find documentation of things that don't work though
What you are proposing is the figurative equivalent of creating a teleportation device powered on wishful thinking and good vibes. Sure it's impossible to rule out 100% but if it is possible, the science behind it has a looong way to go.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23551739 - 08/17/16 11:17 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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even if what you say is true that's no way to explain it
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23551755 - 08/17/16 11:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sure there is. For instance it's very unlikely that you could ever train cubes to eat or beat trich because trich is a preditor of cubes. Trich actually fuses with the cube hyphae and destroys it from within. It's like trying to train a sheep to kill lions. Sheep just are not naturally equipped with the right physiology to take down preditors like lions.
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23551767 - 08/17/16 11:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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oh I never said training myc to eat mold would be easy....it just seems like a better line of thought than whatever is being purposed in the OP 
Most of what I say, think, do, when it comes to mycology has already been done. And probably by someone who knows a hell of a lot more than me...
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23551770 - 08/17/16 11:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay, so is there nothing resembling an immune system in fungi then? There's no difference in contam resistance between a wild strain and a lab strain?
Not trying to disagree, merely asking questions.
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23551779 - 08/17/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your analogies are very action packed today Pasty. Dogs, Snakes, Lions. Fuck ya.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23551798 - 08/17/16 11:33 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sorry Pben I wasn't really trying to bash on you either. The OP is pretty out there as well given that mycelium colonies don't really operate the same way a mammals immune system does either. They fight with enzymes and metabolites not specialized cells. Which is why we use them to take down shit our own immune systems cannot handle. But in the fungal world it's pretty clear cut. You would need to be altering the fungus on a genetic level before you would be able to get it to adapt a solution. Given how many damn species of potential competition are out there, it would be a monumental and potentially dangerous undertaking.
Godamn can ya imagine cubes that could take down all higher fungi, molds, yeasts, bacteria, and live off of just about anything? They would fuck up so many ecosystems we would be sick of seeing them.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23551803 - 08/17/16 11:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: Okay, so is there nothing resembling an immune system in fungi then? There's no difference in contam resistance between a wild strain and a lab strain?
Not trying to disagree, merely asking questions.
Mammals immune response is mostly on a specialized cellular level. Fungi use enzymes and metabolites but lack specialized cells.
Apples and oranges.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23551814 - 08/17/16 11:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well thanks for pointing out the differences between mammal and fungal immunity, coulda done without the rest of it myself.
Off to make a rage thread on another site about anti-experimentalists.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23551819 - 08/17/16 11:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Experiments have a hypothesis and are controlled. I am always enthusiastic about any thread demonstrating the use of those things. Too bad there are so few of them
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PsilocyBen17
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 2
#23551825 - 08/17/16 11:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Off to make a rage thread on another site about anti-experimentalists. 
When you talk to the "experimentalists" can you tell them all to stop coming here?
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: PsilocyBen17]
#23551832 - 08/17/16 11:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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it baffles me that this is the attitude you have towards experiments. There's no reason to be against us "wasting our time grasping at straws." Sometimes its fun to try to learn something instead of copying the same teks until I'm dead in the ground.
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amidogen
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23551838 - 08/17/16 11:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:24 AM)
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23551842 - 08/17/16 11:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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must inhibit spore germination I'm guessing?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23551853 - 08/18/16 12:00 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: must inhibit spore germination I'm guessing?
Essentially yes. The spores are inert before germination. A colonizing substrate can literally eat the spores before they germinate. While trich can eat cubes, it's spores will have a hard time germinating on a living vigorous colonizing colony before being destroyed. If there are no available easy nutes to germinate on, competitors are easy to ward off.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23551885 - 08/18/16 12:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I wonder if they eat their own spores?
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23551936 - 08/18/16 12:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: "If it was possible somebody would have done it by now" is not an argument I'm a fan of. Though you would think somebody would have thought of this one.
Hard to find documentation of things that don't work though
Too bad yeast don't have a nervous system with cells that target virus and bacteria. Their only defense is metabolites with antibiotic compounds. Maybe you could find a strain that makes .more. You would be better off making GMO fungi that makes even better antibiotics
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tump
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23552237 - 08/18/16 04:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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We growers modifier the genetic code of fungus all the time. I agree it wouldn't be easy if not impossible for a long time. I know everyone says a cube is a cube except pe or a few other that took years to make stable. Company make new strain of yeast for wine or beer making. If there is a will there is a way. Hell making trish start producing enzymes that contain Psilocybin then extract that seems easier. Some people grow ergot that way in lc style after they adjust it. So yes genetics might not be a cube at the end . as long as it works no one cares how it done.
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weetsie
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23552284 - 08/18/16 05:24 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was wondering about this a while ago, exactly the same thought, could you nuke a contaminated plate full of mold and use it to "vaccinate" a culture.
I also wondered if it could be used to speed up pinning as I have seen contaminated plates pin really quickly, weeks before clean plates of the same culture.
I figured if the response of mycelium when coming in contact with a contam is to produce metabolites then producing them ahead of time (if there is a response to sterile contams) could potentially increase the chances of your culture coming off best in some instances.
You say you will never train a cube to eat trich mycelium but what about contams that are more fairly matched, I've seen oysters run right over trich, is it not possible that tipping them off could help?
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: If it was do easy to train cultures to eat contams do you not think that the multibillon dollar gourmet and medicinal industries would be all over that.
The easiest way to deal with contamination is to not have it.
That could just mean it's not a commercially viable technique. No large scale mushroom producers use PF tek either but that doesnt mean it doesnt work.
If the sterile contam caused the mycelium to waste energy fighting contams that aren't there then the loss in yields might make it nonviable even if it lowered the chances of contam.
I fully respect the best way is to keep contams out in the first place, I was more interested in if it could be done, rather than if it made sense to do so.
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: weetsie]
#23552309 - 08/18/16 05:46 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Like was said.. trying to vaccinate mycelium against mold is like trying to vaccinate a rabbit against wolves. You can't just shit on the predator/prey situation that easily in one go..
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weetsie
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23552327 - 08/18/16 06:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Like I said, i'm not talking about those situations where it's so clear cut, there are plenty where that isn't the case.
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tump
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: weetsie]
#23552385 - 08/18/16 06:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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If it was to be done it have to be done over and over again. Mushrooms produce enzymes that slow grow on the same median nukes. Thats why we swicth agar nutes and source. You invested the time and resources you could bred a mushroom to do anything. Better question in the theory after tranfer after tranfer of sterilized trish plates you move on what qbout the other contams which there are 1000s of do you do the same process. I think this be a great research grant for a grad student to do. When they gmo the common rice for flood area they bred a fungas that changed the dna of the rice they infected. They started with ergot and changed it with bacterial stuff. It only took 10 years and nine grad students and 5 million dollors to do. So come on guys lets do this. I want screw up ecosystems filled with cubes everywhere.
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tump
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: tump]
#23552399 - 08/18/16 06:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Basics idea to start with is here.http://www.nature.com/articles/srep08567
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: tump]
#23552439 - 08/18/16 07:05 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am really not looking to create a psychedelic apocalypse.
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lukehighwalker710
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23552539 - 08/18/16 07:59 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: I am really not looking to create a psychedelic apocalypse.
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Highwalker
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tump
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23552645 - 08/18/16 08:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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The whole point of this experiments would to make cubes so strong that they can eat all contams. Making all prep work against contams a waste of time. No more sterilized grains or lc`s. The cube myc will eat it all. You have a great company that could sell this myc. Most nunb friendly kit ever. Never contams fails. If it can be done. Why wouldn't you psychedelic paradise. Think of all the applications it have sell it at home depot with black mold testing kits
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: tump]
#23552648 - 08/18/16 08:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
tump said: The whole point of this experiments would to make cubes so strong that they can eat all contams. Making all prep work against contams a waste of time. No more sterilized grains or lc`s. The cube myc will eat it all. You have a great company that could sell this myc. Most nunb friendly kit ever. Never contams fails. If it can be done. Why wouldn't you psychedelic paradise. Think of all the applications it have sell it at home depot with black mold testing kits
You have a lot to learn
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: weetsie]
#23552683 - 08/18/16 09:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
weetsie said: I was wondering about this a while ago, exactly the same thought, could you nuke a contaminated plate full of mold and use it to "vaccinate" a culture.
I also wondered if it could be used to speed up pinning as I have seen contaminated plates pin really quickly, weeks before clean plates of the same culture.
I figured if the response of mycelium when coming in contact with a contam is to produce metabolites then producing them ahead of time (if there is a response to sterile contams) could potentially increase the chances of your culture coming off best in some instances.
You say you will never train a cube to eat trich mycelium but what about contams that are more fairly matched, I've seen oysters run right over trich, is it not possible that tipping them off could help?
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: If it was do easy to train cultures to eat contams do you not think that the multibillon dollar gourmet and medicinal industries would be all over that.
The easiest way to deal with contamination is to not have it.
That could just mean it's not a commercially viable technique. No large scale mushroom producers use PF tek either but that doesnt mean it doesnt work.
If the sterile contam caused the mycelium to waste energy fighting contams that aren't there then the loss in yields might make it nonviable even if it lowered the chances of contam.
I fully respect the best way is to keep contams out in the first place, I was more interested in if it could be done, rather than if it made sense to do so.
thanks for being the one person who seems to understand what I'm talking about.
We've all seen myc put up a fighting chance against contams. Don't see why its so far fetched to breed a strain thats got a better chance. Fuck.
Plus nobodies talking about making mycelium magically immune to every contaminate and ruining the world by being immune to everything. Exaggerate much?
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23552691 - 08/18/16 09:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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my one question never got answered. Does a lab strain born and bred in sterility have the same exact reaction/resistance to mold as a wild strain?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23552696 - 08/18/16 09:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: my one question never got answered. Does a lab strain born and bred in sterility have the same exact reaction/resistance to mold as a wild strain?
Depends on how it was domesticated. But my original point still stands. The most resistant cultures are clean ones.
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La Flama Blanca
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23552823 - 08/18/16 10:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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i don't understand why all the unyielding skepticism. there are literally parasitic mushrooms spores that are able to invade and replace host tissue so efficiently that it will wipe out an entire ant colony. doesn't seem impossible that cubes could be selectively bred to be stronger vs certain contams. just because it seems impossible doesn't mean its not worth even thinking about. how many times have human beings accomplished the seemingly impossible?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: La Flama Blanca]
#23552828 - 08/18/16 10:16 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can you selectively breed a sheep to kill lions? How long would that take? Is there a possibility of such a project having unforseen negative consequences?
No one has said impossible. Improbable, expensive, time consuming, perhaps dangerous. But not impossible.
Tell ya what. You get started now, maybe aquire a few PhD's and 100 million in funds, and in 30 years when you achieve it, assuming I'm still alive, I will grow them cubes.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23552834 - 08/18/16 10:18 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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this information-less lion analogy does nothing for me
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23552842 - 08/18/16 10:22 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: this information-less lion analogy does nothing for me
Why? It's literally the same thing. Don't like lions? Okay how about breeding hamsters that can take out elephants.
There is a reason contams beat the cubes and not the other way around. Are you not familiar with concepts like food chain? Many molds eat and parasitize cubes. Cubes are not designed to eat molds.
What information do you want? There are pics of trich hyphae using anastomosis to kill cube hyphae. They are on the site. Educate yourself.
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lukehighwalker710
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23552854 - 08/18/16 10:27 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: No one has said impossible. Improbable, expensive, time consuming, perhaps dangerous. But not impossible.
Tell ya what. You get started now, maybe aquire a few PhD's and 100 million in funds, and in 30 years when you achieve it, assuming I'm still alive, I will grow them cubes.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: lukehighwalker710]
#23552875 - 08/18/16 10:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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So let's toss out the mushrooms and mammal analogies cause ya ain't getting it. Let's look at plants which admittedly I know very little about.
So how about we breed or vaccinate weed plants so they produce a toxin to kill any spider mites that might infest the grow. The cannabis industry should be all over that shit. It can't be impossible right?
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23552876 - 08/18/16 10:36 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: my one question never got answered. Does a lab strain born and bred in sterility have the same exact reaction/resistance to mold as a wild strain?
Depends on its genetics.
Brewers yeast has been in sterile conditions for its whole life it doesn't loose its abilities
Vaccination doesn't work if you don't have T-cells and a CNS
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23552882 - 08/18/16 10:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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And yet most of the genetic mods done to yeast to allow them to produce morphine etc, seem to get bred out after several generations. They are now trying to modify yeasts to produce meds like insulin but it's proving expensive and difficult.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#23552939 - 08/18/16 10:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's hard to get yeast to be a good organism for a bio reactor. IE to use yeast as a factory for some other compound it doesn't naturally make.
Whoever tried making yeast produce insulin didn't really think that out. That's why they use GMO aspergillus to make other compounds in bio reactors.
Yeast chromosomes are polyploid and have aneuploidy So most chromosomes have more than two copies some have a bunch of copies.
So it's incredibly difficult to mutate yeast since it has a natural ability to resist genetic modification whether by human modification, replication errors, or say a cosmic ray. The bad or damaged copy gets "fixed" right Away
That's why we can run yeast 100 generations in a row and see not a single mutation appear. Actually the first mutation that almost always happens in yeast is petite mutants. Because mitochondrial DNA is more easily damaged. If that happens the yeast respire poorly and become very small. So if you see say 5% petites its time to go back to your slants/masters
Aspergillus isn't polyploid/aneuploid so its a way better Candidate for GMO use
Edited by Trusted cuItivator (08/18/16 11:00 AM)
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23552982 - 08/18/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Great info which further proves the point that you cannot just randomly modify species to do anything. At least not easily. Not to the point where anyone growing an illegal organisim is going to pull it off.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23553866 - 08/18/16 04:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: this information-less lion analogy does nothing for me
Why? It's literally the same thing. Don't like lions? Okay how about breeding hamsters that can take out elephants.
There is a reason contams beat the cubes and not the other way around. Are you not familiar with concepts like food chain? Many molds eat and parasitize cubes. Cubes are not designed to eat molds.
What information do you want? There are pics of trich hyphae using anastomosis to kill cube hyphae. They are on the site. Educate yourself.
I've been trying to remain respectful this whole thread, yet you continue to be an asshole 
maybe just stop replying before we say things we'll regret.
I said in the OP that this is probably another waacky impractical idea. Not that half the people here even read that before running their mouths about nothing..
Edited by Psilosopherr (08/18/16 04:22 PM)
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23553930 - 08/18/16 04:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: this information-less lion analogy does nothing for me
Why? It's literally the same thing. Don't like lions? Okay how about breeding hamsters that can take out elephants.
There is a reason contams beat the cubes and not the other way around. Are you not familiar with concepts like food chain? Many molds eat and parasitize cubes. Cubes are not designed to eat molds.
What information do you want? There are pics of trich hyphae using anastomosis to kill cube hyphae. They are on the site. Educate yourself.
I've been trying to remain respectful this whole thread, yet you continue to be an asshole 
maybe just stop replying before we say things we'll regret.
I said in the OP that this is probably another waacky impractical idea. Not that half the people here even read that before running their mouths about nothing..
Youve got issues man.. Pasty and TC have both been very patient, respectful and educational throughout this whole thread. Chill out.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23553933 - 08/18/16 04:34 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Gonna post a couple quotes from the OP, combined they make all these wolf/rabbit analogies look irrelevant, because nobodies talking about that except the naysayers; I was asking if maybe the rabbit might merely get a better chance ffs. Can you breed faster rabbits at home? abso-fucking-lutely.
Quotes from OP "The only potential benefit I see it having is more resistance to contams in the grow room. "
"Probly just another of my wacky yet useless ideas, but hopefully you at least found it interesting."
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mindbentempire]
#23553943 - 08/18/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Never wanted to swing back, really pasty's first comment nearly got a rise out of me. We have very opposing philosophies apparently.
Got respect for the guy outside of this thread. Hope we can still be cool once the thread dies
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 2
#23554002 - 08/18/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is it really THAT hard to just accept that the idea isn't gonna work? It would take like 100x less time to get good enough at growing that you just didn't have issues with contams than it would to actually genetically modify a species to do something that it simply doesn't have the physical structure to do.
I don't understand why the animal analogies aren't doing it for you. You could try to breed sheep until you have aggressive sheep with claws and jaws like a bear so it could defend itself against coyotes, or you could just keep your sheep away from the fucking coyotes. If it was me, I'd go ahead and just build a fence, since investing time in a huge improbable maybe, that could have devastating consequences on ecosystems, just seems like a lot more work.
The mycelium does not have claws and jaws to defend itself against mold.
Can you find a way to stop mosquitos from biting you in your sleep?
"Oh well I'll just breed myself to have metal skin further down the genetic line!"
The probabilities are about the same here. Even if it did work you'd end up with retarded looking metallic dwarf babies who don't have any friends and probably get quarantined from everybody else, just like this super strain you're talking about that would completely devastate ecology and potentially trigger the end of the world if someone didn't get it under wraps quick. Being that it produces spores, this is a terrible deadly idea.
If that makes you mad, and makes you want to say things you might regret, you may have issues.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23554008 - 08/18/16 04:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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didn't read more than a couple lines, resposting the quote again???
"Probly just another of my wacky yet useless ideas, but hopefully you at least found it interesting."
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23554018 - 08/18/16 04:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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resposting in an online community with social skills 
any mod feel free to delete the post
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Mad Season
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23554841 - 08/18/16 08:31 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:

This is what happens when trich meets cubes. You'd literally have to have some sort of epic genetic mutation for it to be the other way around. And even then, to stabilize the mutation..
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Mad Season]
#23554848 - 08/18/16 08:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Mad comin in with the FACTZ.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23554865 - 08/18/16 08:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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wheres that from Mad?
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole] 1
#23554871 - 08/18/16 08:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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You'd literally have a better chance winning the lottery IMO. I think the fuckin hamster vs elephant analogy is brilliant. Trich just so happens to be the main decomposer of decomposers. Once trich runs rampant, substrates turn black and pretty much back into soil IMO. At least that's what I've observed outside. Weed plants really love trichy substrates 
@pben I got it from bod(TC), I would ask him.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Mad Season]
#23554896 - 08/18/16 08:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Textbook on fungi. PDF from web Trich is parasitic of more than a few mushroom fungi
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555075 - 08/18/16 09:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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My sincere thanks to people posting actual information in this thread!
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amidogen
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23555185 - 08/18/16 09:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:25 AM)
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23555197 - 08/18/16 09:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm sure he gets it by now.. if there's a problem left it's more than likely just a personal one. Points for effective reading comprehension/regurgitation though.
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23555207 - 08/18/16 09:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I never read walls of text, unless I know it's filled with info
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555219 - 08/18/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Eh if my first scan-over turns back promising results I'll read it.
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tump
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23555264 - 08/18/16 10:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Thanks amidogen. For explaining it in easier to read English. Not super state of the art i can think of a few labs able to pole it off. But screw natural law and ecosystems
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: tump]
#23555357 - 08/18/16 10:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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reading this thread from the beginning is kill it before it spreads
Edited by Psilosopherr (08/18/16 10:32 PM)
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amidogen
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23555400 - 08/18/16 10:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:25 AM)
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23555502 - 08/18/16 11:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
amidogen said:
I don't see why the rabbits/lions/tigers/mermaids/whatever analogies aren't doing it for you. How do you get a prey species to not only defeat but predate its natural predator? Cubes don't currently have the physiological hardware to attack/disable/kill trichoderma that has germinated, so it's not like we could somehow modify its behavior to seek out and destroy trich with cubes as they currently exist as a species. You'd need to cause genetic mutations that are carried on through enough generations that they become stable and a permanent trait of the organism. Ok, let's try that.
The rabbit/lion analogy works for a cube/trich because both lions and trich are the preditors in those examples but just because there are times when this wouldn't work doesn't mean that it could never work.
It's like saying a dog will never be able to kill a cat because tigers are bigger than chihuahuas (animal analogies of animal analogies ) It surely depends on both the mushroom you are growing and the contam.
What about the thousands of other contaminants other than trich that inhabit the same substrate as the mushrooms we grow?
Using the animal analogy again this could be like two similarly matched species of monkey in a forest completing over a fruit tree where on any given day one or the other could win the territory in a fight.
If you were to alert one group of monkeys with a fake call of the other group you would give them an early warning. Adrenaline would be released, heart rates would increase, they would ready themselves to fight and take strategic positions. Surely this response happening ahead of time as a result of your intervention could turn the result in their favor.
When mushroom mycelium comes in contact with a contam all sorts of responses happen, metabolites are released, mycelium growth changes physically, fruiting happens prematurely so I don't see it as unreasonable to wonder if firstly it's possible to initiate these kind of responses with sterilised contams and if so could it change the outcome when the mycelium comes in contact with a live contam shortly afterwards.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: weetsie]
#23555505 - 08/18/16 11:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23555623 - 08/19/16 12:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Let's have a look at the top contams.
Trich (unbeatable eats cubes)
Bacillus (beatable in small colonies but let's trich slip in while the cubes are fighting the bacillus, is present in some degree in everyone's grain spawn anyway)
Aspergillus (unbeatable)
Penicillium (even strength but usually slips in to exposed media and steals nutes. Easily prevented with proper filters and by keeping sporeload down)
Lencacillium (unbeatable eats cubes in low FAE high temps)
Mycogone (unbeatable eats cubes in low FAE high temps)
Dactyllium (thrives in high CO2, eats cubes, easily destroyed with peroxide, will never be seen in good FAE)
Rhizopus (thrives in high CO2)
Pseudomonias (thrives in high CO2/wet conditions, eats cubes)
Which of these common contams do you propose we start with? Most are unbeatable in their preferred conditions but will never get a foothold in proper FAE and reasonable temps. The others are a risk invitro only and with clean cultures and decent sterilization runs will never be an issue. The only one that might even make sense is the bacillus. But again it's not like the bacteria itself is the problem but the fact that while the cubes are dealing with it, trich slips in. So you're back to trich.
The fact is that 99% of contamination is easily dealt with by either using good culturing practice or ensuring your fruiting conditions are good. Two very basic and easy things to do especially if your goal is to have a good grow in the first place.
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tump
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23555648 - 08/19/16 12:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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You could start with Bacullis but that make it harder to modifer the gene later id start with Penicillium then Lencacillium then Pseudomonias. Not sure if trish or Mycogone would be next. Got to have someway to kill it or slow it down leave bacullis in its many forms to fight back.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23555655 - 08/19/16 12:33 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Which of these common contams do you propose we start with?
uhhh.
Well explained is all I can say
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: tump]
#23555659 - 08/19/16 12:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Wow okay. Horse has been led to the water.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23555692 - 08/19/16 12:59 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Edited by Psilosopherr (08/19/16 01:03 AM)
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23555697 - 08/19/16 01:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well you asked, so I mean, whose word would you take for it?
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23555702 - 08/19/16 01:07 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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dang, almost edited it in time
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23555705 - 08/19/16 01:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23555706 - 08/19/16 01:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Pseudomonias (thrives in high CO2/wet conditions, eats cubes)
Regretted googling that one while eating my breakfast, eats babies too apparently.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: weetsie]
#23561336 - 08/20/16 08:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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What about identifying the metabolites the cubes release in response to contamination, and figure out a way to synthesize/extract that metabolite. That way you can just spray your tub with defense chemicals when you see some trich or aspergillus. It probably wouldn't work that well, but it's more feasible than modifying the cubes themselves. I wonder if you could even target specific species of bacteria or fungi that eat only Trichoderma and not cubes. Unlikely but yeah.
The real possibility here is to breed cubensis toward resistance to a fungicide. That way if it became resistant enough, you could apply some dilution of fungicide to a contaminated mycelium. Idk how long it would take but it would probably actually work.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: SoulButter] 1
#23561349 - 08/20/16 08:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoulButter said: What about identifying the metabolites the cubes release in response to contamination, and figure out a way to synthesize/extract that metabolite. That way you can just spray your tub with defense chemicals when you see some trich or aspergillus. It probably wouldn't work that well, but it's more feasible than modifying the cubes themselves.
Actually collecting metabolites is recommended for use on plants. The issue with using it in mushroom substrate is that it can drop pH which will allow certain molds to just set up shop. Trich won't be phased by metabolites but really likes an acidic substrate.
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23590741 - 08/29/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hate to revive this thread but I came across some interesting relevant articles today.
This is the main one.
This other one is pretty much about the same thing.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23590843 - 08/29/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cool stuff but still has little relevance to our hobby.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#23602065 - 09/01/16 06:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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wow i cant believe i missed this thread, just finished reading it, so glad i did!
OP, first off, thanks for sharing your thoughts on such an interesting topic. you brought up several great points which should have made for excellent conversation
I very much appreciate the thread, and some of the discussion that eventually took place (like pasty detailing common contams and discussing their viability as a target) ended up being golden, very interesting and very helpful for anyone wondering about similar stuff
It is very annoying the way people are so quick to take things totally out of context, whether it is because of poor reading comprehension skills, not having the patience to actually read, or just the ego boost some people derive from telling other people their ideas are shit.
that doesnt jive with me. if you have to take something out of context to criticize someones ideas, especially when the ideas are meant to be talking points and generate meaningful discussion, its downright annoying and lots of people will see straight through it. unfortunately, newbies and those trying to learn can easily be derailed by these out-of-context criticisms, since it often turns the discussion away from expounding upon the valuable ideas presented, and changes the direction of the rest of the thread as people begin to react to the out of context criticism rather than the talking points presented
people are way too quick to take things out of context so that they can act like someone is stupid. rather than broadening the context people are too quick to limit the discussion to some nonsense that completely misses the value of the talking points. come on people, we can do better than that
In this case: The concept of allowing things to contam, then sterilizing them, and then testing various aspects of the mycs growth and response to contams is a fascinating idea, for lots of reasons
like mentioned with smallpox verriolization (sp?) , that is an interesting thought
someone asked about trying to "train the myc to eat contams", which is obviously misguided, for all the reasons yall mentioned and more. but that is not what OP was talking about, just a thought someone else mentioned
what OP brought up was letting a plate contam, then sterilizing it, and testing.
remember, it is often the metabolites, excretions, etc which give a microorganism its anti-bacterial or anti-fungal properties. for instance, penicillin mold produces a compound with strong antibiotic effects vs bacteria. when this was first discovered though, it was not feasible to produce enough to use, because of how little antibiotic was produced. The gov sent out PSAs to ask people to send in their moldy fruit, and eventually a little old lady sent in a moldy grapefruit that had a strain present which produced thousands of times the normal levels of the antibiotic
for this reason, it is an interesting thought to wonder if some of the antifungal/antibacterial metabolites/excretions produced by certain contaminants might be present after sterilizing the contaminated plate. If so, the sterile plate could retain some of the resistance to bacteria/fungi by virtue of the presence of these compounds after sterilization
a good question to ask is whether any of the common contams produce endospores or any other means of surviving the sterilization cycle?
another aspect to consider is that microorganisms routinely change simple building blocks into complex organic compounds. some of the constituents of contams might be more available to myc after the contam has broken it down or changed it into something else and then been killed off, leaving a very interestingly enhanced medium to experiment with.
there could very well be nutritional, antibacterial, antifungal, resistance and who knows what other kinds of possible benefits to this if it were applied in the right way, finding a "contam" that produced something useful and/or broke substrate down into something useful/helpful and then killing it off.
of course this is a double edged sword: many "contams" will just eat up the same nutrient the myc wants, and leave little to nothing useful for the myc. some probably even have metabolites/excretions/components which inhibit the growth of cube myc (like a broad antifungal).
lets try to actually expand on the context of the talking points presented, rather than doing the ego circle jerk that has become the norm around here since RR (god bless him, damn i miss him) has been gone
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23602433 - 09/01/16 07:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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It was already explained in really good context why this wasn't something that could work very well, and even if it did, it would require such a tremendous effort that it'd hardly be worth it for any one person. But if you're so enamored with the idea that you'd prefer to keep up discussion of it, likely among the same minds that can't understand why it's a near-fruitless effort, then THAT circle jerk could go on for quite some time as well.
I'll take the circle jerk that saves people time over the one that thinks mycelium has a CNS. 
I get it, everybody LOVES to step in and defend the underdog with the unique idea, and also to paint the resulting debate as "discouraging experimentation" but seriously... until someone gets it working and gets back to us, dragons and unicorns are less fantastical than this idea.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23602477 - 09/01/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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My use of the word vaccinate has confused the shit out of the y'all. Pretend I called the thread "lets see if any beneficial metabolites are produced when mycelium encounters sterilized contaminates/metabolites produced by contaminates."
The hypothesis I never proposed but that you have decided to pretend I proposed would never work, you are infinitely fucking correct there. No doubt about that.
Edited by Psilosopherr (09/01/16 07:48 PM)
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23602555 - 09/01/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Metabolites are interesting. One thing they do that's really cool is drop the pH of the media being colonized. That works to the organisims advantage in nature. Indoors however it simply just gives the edge to mold.
We muse remember that the species we are growing has been removed from its niche. It's literally a fish out of water. Most of our strategy needs to consider that aspect. If you keep a fish in a tank you want to be sure you don't introduce sharks to that closed system if you want the fish to do well.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23602584 - 09/01/16 08:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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"One thing they do that's really cool is drop the pH of the media being colonized. That works to the organisims advantage in nature. Indoors however it simply just gives the edge to mold."
Whats the difference here you think? That in nature it gets flushed into the surrounding soil by water and therefore the ph never gets so low that molds take over?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23602628 - 09/01/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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In nature there is far more fresh air. Indoors we deal with elevated CO2 which gives molds a massive advantage. Therefore we need to not give them any other advantages if we can help it.
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sandy_vag
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 4
#23602798 - 09/01/16 09:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: sandy_vag]
#23602839 - 09/01/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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shit you're right. at least when we're using composted horse manure, maybe not for cvg so much.
guy with 60 posts breaks the post in one fell swoop. awesome.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: sandy_vag]
#23602930 - 09/01/16 09:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sandy_vag said: Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
So obvious yet was exactly what needed to be said. Nice. Rated 5+
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23602941 - 09/01/16 09:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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... I'll be damned.
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Boogieman47
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23603518 - 09/02/16 01:48 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Voodoo
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole] 1
#23604217 - 09/02/16 10:26 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: It was already explained in really good context why this wasn't something that could work very well, and even if it did, it would require such a tremendous effort that it'd hardly be worth it for any one person. But if you're so enamored with the idea that you'd prefer to keep up discussion of it, likely among the same minds that can't understand why it's a near-fruitless effort, then THAT circle jerk could go on for quite some time as well.
I'll take the circle jerk that saves people time over the one that thinks mycelium has a CNS. 
I get it, everybody LOVES to step in and defend the underdog with the unique idea, and also to paint the resulting debate as "discouraging experimentation" but seriously... until someone gets it working and gets back to us, dragons and unicorns are less fantastical than this idea.
did you even read my post? maybe re-read it, slowly :/
some of us are well beyond thinking myc has a CNS and i think you know that, just more taking things out of context for the ego circle jerk and ignoring or failing to register the valuable talking points presented (in my post for example)
im not interested in any kind of circle jerk (isnt that why god made vagina, etc?), and i cant be the only one who sees right through this kind of nonsense
what i, and many others here who probably read a lot more than they post, am interested in is correct ideas, talking points that broaden my understanding, and learning in general
obviously some people are going to chime in who dont have a basic grasp of microbiology or even basic biology, and some people will be kind enough to help them understand how their thinking is misguided and put it into context for them. Others will use the misguided tidbit as an excuse to write off entire concepts, entire ways of thinking. that my friend, is just intellectual laziness, and it is contagious. and it certainly doesnt suit you
you shouldnt have to take things sooooooo out of context if you have a truly valid criticism
and no im not "defending the underdog with the unique idea", i am scolding you for thinking in those terms, being so quick to look for "unicorns and dragons" when there is an interesting and valid discussion to be had. can you not see the forest for the trees? or is it just too gratifying to the ego to resist taking something out of context and "putting an underdog in their place"?
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Metabolites are interesting. One thing they do that's really cool is drop the pH of the media being colonized. That works to the organisims advantage in nature. Indoors however it simply just gives the edge to mold.
We muse remember that the species we are growing has been removed from its niche. It's literally a fish out of water. Most of our strategy needs to consider that aspect. If you keep a fish in a tank you want to be sure you don't introduce sharks to that closed system if you want the fish to do well.
pasty, as usual, i gotta commend you for always bringing useful, insightful discussion and great info to the conversation, you rock buddy 
excellent point you make about the fish out of water. that understanding should really inform all of our endeavors with mushroom culture in artificial environments. As complicated as things can be when dealing with a single microorganism (that becomes macro) , we should definitely think twice before adding any much more aggressive, even predatory, microorganisms into the mix
the metabolites are absolutely fascinating, both cubensis metabolites and contam (or other microorganisms) metabolites probably have some interesting compounds in them, and i bet new ones are being discovered all the time
also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc
bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered
Quote:
sandy_vag said: Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
excellent point. though im surprised this hadnt registered with more people, this is exactly what led me to wonder about this concept.
it is a given that any spawn or substrate (including cvg) is going to have lots of other microorganisms present, and that that is the whole point of sterilizing/pasteurizing. which means that our substrates and spawn are already enhanced in this way, if only slightly. what is interesting is wondering how much effect this has over what we are culturing
there are several components to consider when determining what might be left over, including but not limited to:
-the species of microorganism in question -metabolites/excretions -components (what the organism is actually made of; cell walls etc) -how the microorganism breaks down the medium, and what it breaks it down into -which of these compounds survives sterilization
also it is important to remember that when we are talking about our spawn/substrate, this occurs on a spectrum, in various amounts, depending on what organisms are present, the substrate, and the factors above. and it could happen a little bit or a lot. so it definitely doesnt "break the post", just reminds people of something they had either forgotten or were taking for granted.
if anything this underscores why there is so much value to this line of thinking
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23604245 - 09/02/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc
To be honest I doubt you will find many if any fungal species whose metabolites do not lower the pH. It's how they break down the food. In general most fungi including cubes prefer an acidic pH. However cubes tolerate higher pH better than most molds so we use it to our advantage indoors.
I have observed IRL some experiments with chemical treatment of media, specifically benomyl. It had promise but in the end seemed like more work than simply ensuring proper procedure. That's really the issue with most of these out of the box ideas. Treatment of media is less effective and often a lot more expense and work for less return. A fully colonized vigorous colony is damn near bulletproof. That's where the energy is best directed.
I am afraid that inocules points are well founded if bluntly stated. As exciting as prospects like this thread seem to be, they simply are not (at this point) even feasable for large commercial producers let alone a simple hobbiest. We already know the pros and cons to most of this stuff. Until major technology breakthroughs happen, it's just pipe dreams.
I think why this stuff is so attractive to people is the perception that clean expansion is a hard thing to do. But those people who get it down realize that it's really pretty easy. You just need to understand where the vectors are. Once you do that it's really simple to maintain a super high success rate.
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23604256 - 09/02/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I am afraid that inocules points
Shh, shh... don't be afraid, it's natural baby.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#23604282 - 09/02/16 10:54 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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great info pasty
i was thinking more in line with bacteria/cyanobacteria than fungal for the high ph btw, mainly to underscore the diversity of these kingdoms
and again context is everything
of course if you are just trying to grow some cubes and that is the end of your goal, this stuff is absolutely irrelevant. like you said, which i completely agree with:
Quote:
Treatment of media is less effective and often a lot more expense and work for less return. A fully colonized vigorous colony is damn near bulletproof. That's where the energy is best directed. &
I think why this stuff is so attractive to people is the perception that clean expansion is a hard thing to do. But those people who get it down realize that it's really pretty easy. You just need to understand where the vectors are. Once you do that it's really simple to maintain a super high success rate.
you are spot on there, i think that is why most people are interested in ideas like this, because in some way or another, they are trying to make their cube growing project easier. and you are absolutely right to make sure to inform people loud and clear that this is absolutely not worth the time of anyone who thinks experimenting with something like this is going to make it any easier for them to grow cubes, get a clean culture, or w/e
but what bugs me is when something has to be taken completely out of context to be ridiculed, for the sake of the ego circle jerk, all the while ignoring all the valid talking points and focusing on the misguided suggestions that pop up from time to time, that is just intellectual laziness
obviously context is everything here: something like this is not going to make it any easier to grow or get clean cultures. but for someone like myself who spends several hours a day reading in academic databases, who is totally fascinated by the amazing stuff being published literally every single day, discussions about this kind of stuff are one of my favorite things about the shroomery, especially picking the brains of those who can offer insight beyond "this is a waste of time" because they assume your interest is limited to trying to grow cubes more easily
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23604327 - 09/02/16 11:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I guess people react that way because this is the active species forum. If you are doing super experimental stuff, it would be better suited in the advanced forum. Technically it's off topic here.
People posting here are 90% of the time looking to grow cubes.
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23604337 - 09/02/16 11:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Oh.. don't say that Pasty... Advanced already gets enough "experimental" threads.. Maybe they should get their own dungeon like strain talk.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23604581 - 09/02/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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youre right, it is better suited to the advanced forum
Quote:
For people with experience in mushroom cultivation, this forum is dedicated to the discussion of experimental procedures, advanced cultivation techniques and mushroom science.
but it definitely falls within
Quote:
This forum is dedicated to all aspects of cultivating psychoactive mushrooms.
im guessing it was brought up here so that more people than the 7 of us who read the advanced section might contribute to the conversation
its definitely discouraging to see how quick people are to look for unicorns and dragons to slay, where a truly helpful response might point out the underlying principles at work and see the value in discussing those points rather than getting their rocks off by ridiculing bad ideas or misguided comments people make.
i know im not the only person who sees right through that kind of nonsense and intellectual laziness, and hopes we can be better than that, though i imagine most do far more reading than posting
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o] 1
#23604645 - 09/02/16 01:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Some people have a hard time with topics that are very unlikely to ever produce fruit. I challenge anyone to find a thread in advanced that ever turned into something useful.
Mush cult is a place where success needs to be found. It's where the new come to learn the hobby. Cluttering it up with stuff that is at best unlikely to teach us anything (generally speaking) or result in a new method is kind of a waste really. It seeds bad ideas into the heads of new people.
I love out there shit. I made the novelty thread, developed a few wacko ideas and even did stuff that was gonna fail all day long. But there is a difference between doing and talking about doing. This threads premise would still be facepalm if the OP had some dead trich eaten by cube mycelium on a plate, expanded then spawned side by side with controls and introduced contams. But at least that despite its many flaws would have the virtue of having results to point to. Even if everyone calls the ending, good science is repeatable.
That is my advice to people wanting to discuss shit like this in cult. Make a grow of it and at least we have pictures. It becomes worth something.
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Terpfreak
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#23604744 - 09/02/16 01:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm so glad this was in general cultivation, all of the trusted cultivators contributing information that I otherwise wouldn't have learned until I'd experimented more. Also had this been in advanced cultivation I probably wouldn't have noticed it because I had no idea what it means. Being in this side of the forum, it stood out in a sea of "how does my Monotub look". So thanks!
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23605487 - 09/02/16 05:24 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
This forum is dedicated to all aspects of cultivating psychoactive mushrooms.
its definitely discouraging to see how quick people are to look for unicorns and dragons to slay, where a truly helpful response might point out the underlying principles at work and see the value in discussing those points rather than getting their rocks off by ridiculing bad ideas or misguided comments people make.
Quoted for truth. All, day, long.
Throwing in just enough teaching/information to excuse their behavior to themselves
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23605542 - 09/02/16 05:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just desensitized by lack of results is all. I'd love to change my paradigm, believe me.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23605554 - 09/02/16 05:49 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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"bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered"
This is more what I'm leaning towards now. Countless species/varieties of bacteria, there's got to be an interesting symbiont out there.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23605702 - 09/02/16 06:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Okay so then let's follow that train of thought. Given that there are billions of undiscovered, undescribed and untested species, it's not entirely impossible that some insane magic metabolite producing species exists. One that will beat the hell outta trich, aspergillus or bacillus, all the while leaving the cubes unaffected. When someone discovers it, figures out how to produce it while making it cheap and easy to aquire, someone send me a 
Until that day I will content myself with a 97% success rate and 150% BE first flushes.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23605721 - 09/02/16 06:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Again you talk about things I am not talking about. Almost put a disclaimer at the end of my previous post but I thought we were past this.
Key word was "interesting."
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23605769 - 09/02/16 06:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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What are you talking about? You keep saying "interesting". All I want to know is how in your mind this is a valid cultivation topic?
Whatever. Seems that no matter what I say I'm just coming across as a hater. I'm gonna go make a new thread with teks, procedures, pictures and results. Also hookers n blackjack.
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Terpfreak
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23605818 - 09/02/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Let me know when it's done
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23605832 - 09/02/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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It involves mushroom cultivation... 
Its very much based on what you type.
Outside of this thread I'm still a fan of everybody here, even inocuole.
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dankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23605911 - 09/02/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: hookers n blackjack.
Agreed. The one sure thing in this thread.
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sandy_vag
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23606090 - 09/02/16 08:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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This is foolish in my opinion. Someone that can't keep a grow clean is going to do some untold extra steps right? Just stop fucking off and do it right. If you can't do that...what? Call me intellectually lazy all day this is pointless.
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: sandy_vag] 2
#23606275 - 09/02/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Maybe I have been overly hard on this idea. Ya know I was thinking that maybe the reason cubes ain't been overpowering contams is cause they don't eat enough red meat. They need more creatine in their diet. Anyone try growing on a porterhouse? Sterilize that sucker on the grill, maybe some BBQ sauce and a baked potato. Cubes love potato, I use it in my agar.
Let's do this people. Someone out there has tried it. No haters tho. Let's be objective here, it's an experiment.
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sandy_vag
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23606310 - 09/02/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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In short if you cant tell me the square root of 4 i don't expect you to tell me the square root of pi. Would you? If you can't push a dead baby in a stroller do i expect you to raise my kids? If you can't grow cubensis can you grow me some azures? The answer is no followed by pull your head out of your ass.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23606330 - 09/02/16 09:44 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Maybe I have been overly hard on this idea. Ya know I was thinking that maybe the reason cubes ain't been overpowering contams is cause they don't eat enough red meat. They need more creatine in their diet. Anyone try growing on a porterhouse? Sterilize that sucker on the grill, maybe some BBQ sauce and a baked potato. Cubes love potato, I use it in my agar.
Let's do this people. Someone out there has tried it. No haters tho. Let's be objective here, it's an experiment.
He done finally broke guys... Driven to madness.
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sandy_vag
Keep Dreaming



Registered: 06/14/16
Posts: 112
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23606521 - 09/02/16 10:35 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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so few brain cells left but cmon
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23606565 - 09/02/16 10:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Maybe I have been overly hard on this idea. Ya know I was thinking that maybe the reason cubes ain't been overpowering contams is cause they don't eat enough red meat. They need more creatine in their diet. Anyone try growing on a porterhouse? Sterilize that sucker on the grill, maybe some BBQ sauce and a baked potato. Cubes love potato, I use it in my agar.
Let's do this people. Someone out there has tried it. No haters tho. Let's be objective here, it's an experiment.
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Mad Season]
#23606573 - 09/02/16 10:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That would be two for one right? Sirloin smothered in shrooms then we could legally sell the steak at 100$ with the cubes for free and the restaurant could have black lights strippers blackjack with glow in the dark cards and green beer
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23606585 - 09/02/16 11:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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morty422
Wuba-luba-dub-dub!



Registered: 07/06/16
Posts: 988
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23606720 - 09/03/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Experiments have a hypothesis and are controlled. I am always enthusiastic about any thread demonstrating the use of those things. Too bad there are so few of them 
Quote:
Inocuole said: Is it really THAT hard to just accept that the idea isn't gonna work? It would take like 100x less time to get good enough at growing that you just didn't have issues with contams than it would to actually genetically modify a species to do something that it simply doesn't have the physical structure to do.
I don't understand why the animal analogies aren't doing it for you. You could try to breed sheep until you have aggressive sheep with claws and jaws like a bear so it could defend itself against coyotes, or you could just keep your sheep away from the fucking coyotes. If it was me, I'd go ahead and just build a fence, since investing time in a huge improbable maybe, that could have devastating consequences on ecosystems, just seems like a lot more work.
The mycelium does not have claws and jaws to defend itself against mold.
Can you find a way to stop mosquitos from biting you in your sleep?
"Oh well I'll just breed myself to have metal skin further down the genetic line!"
The probabilities are about the same here. Even if it did work you'd end up with retarded looking metallic dwarf babies who don't have any friends and probably get quarantined from everybody else, just like this super strain you're talking about that would completely devastate ecology and potentially trigger the end of the world if someone didn't get it under wraps quick. Being that it produces spores, this is a terrible deadly idea.
If that makes you mad, and makes you want to say things you might regret, you may have issues. 
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: morty422]
#23606775 - 09/03/16 01:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if the idea was that dumb you'd think it would be ignored.
riddle yourselves that.
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23606789 - 09/03/16 01:31 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think anyone is trying to bash you but more the idea I'm sure alot of people would like contam free myc if it was possible it would be bad ass but who has the money to put forward they would rather do experiments on gorilla humans and finding ways to infiltrate everything we do for all we know they have shit like that but we the people will never see it ... it would probably be easier to make the myc stringer with antibiotics to build it's immune system then infect it bacteria
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23607047 - 09/03/16 06:53 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: if the idea was that dumb you'd think it would be ignored.
riddle yourselves that.
Ridicule fits this better than ignoring.
We're going to be ultra science smart for the end goal of being able to cultivate like a moron because cubes would beat green mold.
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Terpfreak
❀Terpenes❀



Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 1,065
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23607170 - 09/03/16 08:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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MS to boneless pork sirloin. No growth yet, maybe the pork doesnt have enough seasoning.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23607212 - 09/03/16 08:34 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: if the idea was that dumb you'd think it would be ignored.
riddle yourselves that.
If that were logical, troll topics wouldn't ever be able to take off.
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23607447 - 09/03/16 10:13 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Terpfreak said:

MS to boneless pork sirloin. No growth yet, maybe the pork doesnt have enough seasoning.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
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SoulButter
Joint Chief of Soul


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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak] 1
#23607530 - 09/03/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Terpfreak said:

MS to boneless pork sirloin. No growth yet, maybe the pork doesnt have enough seasoning.
Try casing with 50/50 mashed potatoes and stuffing.
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Terpfreak
❀Terpenes❀



Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 1,065
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: SoulButter]
#23607855 - 09/03/16 12:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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but casing the sirloin with heighten humidty . Oh no. Itll be too juicy.
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dankington
The Stranger




Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23607921 - 09/03/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just need to increase FAE a bit. You can tweak it.
This is fun
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23608052 - 09/03/16 01:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Revolutionary stuff guys... really cracking the whole cultivation scene wide open with this.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23608064 - 09/03/16 01:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if you'd rather than have a productive conversation 
seems nearly unanimous
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23608080 - 09/03/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Productive conversation? Where? Point me to it.
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Terpfreak
❀Terpenes❀



Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 1,065
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23608089 - 09/03/16 01:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23608131 - 09/03/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Some people have a hard time with topics that are very unlikely to ever produce fruit. I challenge anyone to find a thread in advanced that ever turned into something useful.
Mush cult is a place where success needs to be found. It's where the new come to learn the hobby. Cluttering it up with stuff that is at best unlikely to teach us anything (generally speaking) or result in a new method is kind of a waste really. It seeds bad ideas into the heads of new people.
I love out there shit. I made the novelty thread, developed a few wacko ideas and even did stuff that was gonna fail all day long. But there is a difference between doing and talking about doing. This threads premise would still be facepalm if the OP had some dead trich eaten by cube mycelium on a plate, expanded then spawned side by side with controls and introduced contams. But at least that despite its many flaws would have the virtue of having results to point to. Even if everyone calls the ending, good science is repeatable.
That is my advice to people wanting to discuss shit like this in cult. Make a grow of it and at least we have pictures. It becomes worth something.
lol spot on, you are so right about how many "experimental" threads in advanced that never turn into anything useful in that sense, hell i cant think of one that has
and i totally understand your sentiments about success needing to be in mush cult, since lots new growers look to it like a bible, and a topic like this could easily distract a new grower from "follow the tek to the letter" and have them wasting time trying to "train cube myc to eat contams" instead
but i totally understand why someone would post it here rather than in the advanced section, since way more people contribute, and pasty is more likely to contribute more killer info

solid advice all the way around, especially regarding these kinds of threads in mush cult. i guess without actual experiments/grows/pics, anyone making this kind of post should be prepared for the way people tend to respond to them (and probably even if they do have them).
but personally, i love anything that gets me thinking, and one of my favorite things about the shroomery is the discussion that takes place when people bounce ideas and feedback off of one another, and discuss valuable ideas, connect dots, and put things in context. there is nothing like it, its a beautiful thing
i spend several hours a day reading in academic databases, kinda obsessively, and topics like this and inocuole's topic on Anastomosis are solid gold, because they give me new things to research, and often leads me to amazing papers on exactly the topics i want to learn about.
a good professor is able to see value and connect the dots in all kinds of places, even a students stupid questions. thats kinda how pasty strikes me, reminds me of some of the good professors i have had who always took the time to help people broaden their understanding and fill the gaps, without ridiculing people for the sake of their ego, like a shitty TA. mush love buddy
Quote:
Terpfreak said: I'm so glad this was in general cultivation, all of the trusted cultivators contributing information that I otherwise wouldn't have learned until I'd experimented more. Also had this been in advanced cultivation I probably wouldn't have noticed it because I had no idea what it means. Being in this side of the forum, it stood out in a sea of "how does my Monotub look". So thanks!
exactly how i felt when i found this post! 
Quote:
Inocuole said:

Just desensitized by lack of results is all. I'd love to change my paradigm, believe me.
if the goal was to get people talking about something interesting, and learn valuable information from the exchange of ideas that leads to new avenues of learning, i would say results=achieved.
OP wasnt trying to prove anything, or trying to teach people how to get clean cultures more easily, just bringing up some fascinating talking points
bringing up talking points certainly doesnt make someone an "underdog" , and being rude to them or missing the point entirely certainly doesnt make someone a "big dog". many people see right through that kind of bs. this kind of thinking is the paradigm that needs to be changed.
Quote:
rbalzer said: "bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered"
This is more what I'm leaning towards now. Countless species/varieties of bacteria, there's got to be an interesting symbiont out there.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Okay so then let's follow that train of thought. Given that there are billions of undiscovered, undescribed and untested species, it's not entirely impossible that some insane magic metabolite producing species exists. One that will beat the hell outta trich, aspergillus or bacillus, all the while leaving the cubes unaffected. When someone discovers it, figures out how to produce it while making it cheap and easy to aquire, someone send me a 
Until that day I will content myself with a 97% success rate and 150% BE first flushes.
exactly this was one of the many points i brought up to try to bring this back to the realm of interesting information
its fascinating to think about how much the presence of dead microbes, their metabolites, and their constituents already influence our projects, since the microbiological diversity could vary greatly between substrates (hpoo, straw, CVG, etc) or even between individual samples of the same type of substrate.
btw, do you have any notes on which microorganisms you have experience with that have been particularly aggressive, especially if it seems to inhibit the growth of other microorganisms? of course as you pointed out, most fungal species lower the PH of the medium, but have you noticed any other interesting characteristics? im particularly interested in learning more about the different types of antibiotics and antifungal compounds produced by microorganisms.
there is a TON of academic research being done on these topics right now, so there is a WEALTH of amazing info available in academic journals (most easily accessed through databases; you can usually access them through your university or public library, or if you work in healthcare through your employee account), if you know where to look and what to look for (thats the hard part)
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Whatever. Seems that no matter what I say I'm just coming across as a hater. I'm gonna go make a new thread with teks, procedures, pictures and results. Also hookers n blackjack.
lol you definitely dont come off as a hater, more like the patient professor who makes the class interesting while trying to keep people from getting distracted in a way that might inhibit their chances of success or waste their time. your sincerity and concern for the understanding of both people who post and the vastly greater number of people who just read definitely comes through 
i think OP has gotten frustrated by how hard it is to get people to discuss the fascinating talking points, and how fast people are to take things out of context for the sake of mounting a criticism. or focus on a misguided question someone brought to the discussion (like myc eating trich, or mushrooms having a CNS) in an attempt to ridicule entire fields of research
Quote:
sandy_vag said: This is foolish in my opinion. Someone that can't keep a grow clean is going to do some untold extra steps right? Just stop fucking off and do it right. If you can't do that...what? Call me intellectually lazy all day this is pointless.
this was not presented as a way for people who cant keep a grow clean to get a clean culture more easily, that is totally out of context, though it has made up the majority of the discussion in this thread. so of course it is pointless in the context you described, but thats not what we are talking about.
of course this isnt going to help anyone get a clean culture more easily, and if they struggle with that then they have no practical application for this at all. but it certainly makes for good talking points (unless its twisted completely out of context)
this topic was not meant to be an experiment, a tek, a theory, a challenge, a way to do things better, or anything else all these criticisms assume. I think OP just overestimated people's ability to connect the dots and have a meaningful and interesting discussion without having their whole thought process derailed by a dumb question.
to reiterate, and try to bring the thread back to the realm of interesting discussion, some of the talking points ive raised:
Quote:
remember, it is often the metabolites, excretions, etc which give a microorganism its anti-bacterial or anti-fungal properties. for instance, penicillin mold produces a compound with strong antibiotic effects vs bacteria. when this was first discovered though, it was not feasible to produce enough to use, because of how little antibiotic was produced. The gov sent out PSAs to ask people to send in their moldy fruit, and eventually a little old lady sent in a moldy grapefruit that had a strain present which produced thousands of times the normal levels of the antibiotic
for this reason, it is an interesting thought to wonder if some of the antifungal/antibacterial metabolites/excretions produced by certain contaminants might be present after sterilizing the contaminated plate. If so, the sterile plate could retain some of the resistance to bacteria/fungi by virtue of the presence of these compounds after sterilization
a good question to ask is whether any of the common contams produce endospores or any other means of surviving the sterilization cycle?
another aspect to consider is that microorganisms routinely change simple building blocks into complex organic compounds. some of the constituents of contams might be more available to myc after the contam has broken it down or changed it into something else and then been killed off, leaving a very interestingly enhanced medium to experiment with.
there could very well be nutritional, antibacterial, antifungal, resistance and who knows what other kinds of possible benefits to this if it were applied in the right way, finding a "contam" that produced something useful and/or broke substrate down into something useful/helpful and then killing it off.
of course this is a double edged sword: many "contams" will just eat up the same nutrient the myc wants, and leave little to nothing useful for the myc. some probably even have metabolites/excretions/components which inhibit the growth of cube myc (like a broad antifungal).
lets try to actually expand on the context of the talking points presented, rather than doing the ego circle jerk that has become the norm around here since RR (god bless him, damn i miss him) has been gone
excellent point you make about the fish out of water. that understanding should really inform all of our endeavors with mushroom culture in artificial environments. As complicated as things can be when dealing with a single microorganism (that becomes macro) , we should definitely think twice before adding any much more aggressive, even predatory, microorganisms into the mix
the metabolites are absolutely fascinating, both cubensis metabolites and contam (or other microorganisms) metabolites probably have some interesting compounds in them, and i bet new ones are being discovered all the time
also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc
bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered
Quote:
sandy_vag said: Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
excellent point. though im surprised this hadnt registered with more people, this is exactly what led me to wonder about this concept.
it is a given that any spawn or substrate (including cvg) is going to have lots of other microorganisms present, and that that is the whole point of sterilizing/pasteurizing. which means that our substrates and spawn are already enhanced in this way, if only slightly. what is interesting is wondering how much effect this has over what we are culturing
there are several components to consider when determining what might be left over, including but not limited to:
-the species of microorganism in question -metabolites/excretions -components (what the organism is actually made of; cell walls etc) -how the microorganism breaks down the medium, and what it breaks it down into -which of these compounds survives sterilization
also it is important to remember that when we are talking about our spawn/substrate, this occurs on a spectrum, in various amounts, depending on what organisms are present, the substrate, and the factors above. and it could happen a little bit or a lot. so it definitely doesnt "break the post", just reminds people of something they had either forgotten or were taking for granted.
if anything this underscores why there is so much value to this line of thinking
if something hundreds of brilliant people devote their lives to studying seems "stupid" to you, maybe you are asking the wrong question, or misunderstanding what they are trying to do (or why)
Edited by c10h12n2o (09/03/16 02:01 PM)
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23608144 - 09/03/16 02:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:33 AM)
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23608166 - 09/03/16 02:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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So.. Pasty, I threw up an anastomosis thread in Advanced a week or so ago that's barely getting any attention. Could suuure use some input from Mr. Montana.
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23608176 - 09/03/16 02:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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a wall of text is one without page breaks, that post was sufficiently broken up to be easily read for sure
some people read/think faster than others, take your time with it if you care, if not 
people like me enjoy reading. i spend several hours a day reading in academic databases about various topics im fascinated by. hell the internet and academic databases have changed the world, made it easier for people to access cutting edge studies than at any other point in history. some will take advantage of it, some will not
the papers in academic databases are definitely dense as agarikon: they are not easy reading. i often find myself rereading the same paragraph a dozen times to make sure i understand it, and have to constantly look up terms, check footnotes, and read references just to be able to know what they are talking about
thats why its frustrating to hear people make such broad, uninformed assumptions and value judgments about entire avenues of thinking and research, when they dont have the paitience to read the posts, much less the body of academic literature regarding the concepts being discussed
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608204 - 09/03/16 02:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:33 AM)
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23608248 - 09/03/16 02:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well once a kind fellow pointed out that we're already doing said idea every time we grow, that did shoot down a lot of the potential for conversation on the possibilities.
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23608283 - 09/03/16 02:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:34 AM)
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23608286 - 09/03/16 02:48 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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again, that underscores why this is so interesting, and further proves that the concept is prevalent throughout all of our projects whether or not we talk about it.
that is what led me to initially wonder about these topics. i am frankly surprised that so many people didnt realize that this is happening every time we grow. i dont see how someone could even follow the conversation if they didnt understand that.
really goes to show how much people are missing the point and how little people are actually thinking about the topics presented
the thread has certainly given me some fun things to look into, and i doubt i am alone in that
particularly pasty's posts on the metabolism of various contams and how they differ, and how they affect the medium composition
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Edited by c10h12n2o (09/03/16 02:53 PM)
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dankington
The Stranger




Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608336 - 09/03/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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No one was missing the point. I'd say a more damning fact was simply overlooked by overthinking. But I'm quite certain everyone in the discussion understood the basic premise of introducing dead contams/endospores.
Everyone here knows how vaccines and immune systems work. We also understand the cause/effect of metabolites. So, what's with this circular argument?
Edited by dankington (09/03/16 03:03 PM)
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Terpfreak
❀Terpenes❀



Registered: 07/08/16
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23608352 - 09/03/16 03:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Preach
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23608368 - 09/03/16 03:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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we were talking about a lot more than just that, but i guess you missed that? or are you just focusing on the dumbed-down phrase OP used to try to introduce people to the concept, to the exclusion of what people are actually interested in?
anyway, i would love for anyone capable of getting un-derailed by this nonsense to actually talk about some of the many valid discussion points that have been presented (many enumerated above), share any useful notes they have on the topic, raise any good questions, share any interesting papers/links/photos/projects, etc., to do so
because, if its just people who didnt even make the connection that things like this is already happening all the time trying to convince people who are actually interested in the excretions/metabolites/constituents of microorganisms that they are somehow dumb for even wondering about such things, youre right, no point in that
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608393 - 09/03/16 03:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
c10h12n2o said: again, that underscores why this is so interesting, and further proves that the concept is prevalent throughout all of our projects whether or not we talk about it.
Well it hasn't made a difference yet, we still have to sterilize and pasteurize.. How many years and generations of growth do you think it might take before it finally matters?
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23608420 - 09/03/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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and nothing presented is meant to suggest otherwise
idk how long it would take or if it would even be possible to do what you are talking about (creating a culture that wouldnt require pasteurization, etc)
but i do know that there is some amazing research being done into fungal and bacterial antibiotics/antifungals being produced by a broad range of microorganisms. it is really amazing stuff, with new compounds being isolated and written about every day. and the right mind might be able to apply some of the findings and techniques to our hobby.
and that is truly fascinating, something worth talking about in my opinion
one answer to your question would be zero, if you spawn it outdoors (where lots of competitors are present btw)
but mainly i think it is something interesting to think about and discuss, such as the various talking points i brought up.
and this is the kind of place where someone brilliant might pop in and say something incredibly insightful that gives me a whole new perspective and tons of new things to research ****cue RR****
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Edited by c10h12n2o (09/03/16 03:31 PM)
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dankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608421 - 09/03/16 03:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm not at a keyboard, nor inclined to quote a page of text. I was merely being succinct. Pardon me for I'm obv. intelectually inferior. I do feel i successfully summed everything up, thank you.
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608430 - 09/03/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
c10h12n2o said: ****cue RR****
Be fucking hilarious if he popped in just to close the thread. That's so his style.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23608441 - 09/03/16 03:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm amazed that I didn't get thread locked or temporarily banned for this now that you mention it.
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23608446 - 09/03/16 03:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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A ban would be extreme.
I've got more analogies though if you like those. For instance, would eating enough salad vaccinate me against lettuce? If I eat shark all the time, maybe they'll leave me alone in the ocean? No? Alright, you all have a good one.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23608454 - 09/03/16 03:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Both of my temporary bans were over trivial BS, its all up to the mod present, IME anyway.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23608511 - 09/03/16 04:06 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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again, completely ignoring all the great talking points raised, and focusing on what we all agree is bs... why?
if you cant figure out what we are talking about, or have nothing useful to add, what is the point?
i think inocuole is just trolling by focusing on nonsense posts rather than connecting the dots or addressing any of the valid talking points :/ he knows good and well that the phrase "vaccinate" was used to try to introduce the subject to those who might not realize that what we are actually dealing with is the metabolites/constituents of microorganisms, the effects they have on our projects, and the potential that mediums enhanced in this particular way might have within our hobby. either trolling or i vastly overestimated his ability to connect the dots / research skills, or underestimated how much he enjoys the whole "big dog" / "underdog" dynamic
all that said, the topic is definitely better suited to advanced... probably would have been most productive to just PM pasty (like i will when i have some questions about how some papers might relate to our hobby), but then users like me and others who read more than we post wouldnt have even seen it
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608527 - 09/03/16 04:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I did chuckle to myself when I got a tiny spot of green in an otherwise clean grain jar the other day. Laughing about the "lion in my rabbit cage" who appeared to be having difficulty eating all the rabbits for some reason.
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dankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608562 - 09/03/16 04:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Being bombastic does not make one superior or even correct. In fact, it sounds to me like you're grasping at straws to save face now. The dots were connected fine.
Perhaps it is you that is misunderstanding?
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23608564 - 09/03/16 04:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Holy shit this threads gone mad I read it when I t started not paid much attention for a while and its 8 pages deep Jizz in it maybe the jizz will eat contams and grow half human half shrooms resulting in shrumans
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23608632 - 09/03/16 04:39 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said: resulting in shrumans
And to think someone suggested this conversation wasn't going anywhere productive..
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23608644 - 09/03/16 04:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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i dont even see anything to respond to, just more ego bs
anyone who actually has anything valid to say about any of the MANY valid talking points that have been brought up (i enumerated many in my post), any info to share, etc., it is very welcome, and im willing to bet i am not the only one who appreciates it
all this bs is doing is making it clear who is NOT going to contribute anything helpful (which would have been better served by silence)
writing off entire avenues of research is just naive and arrogant, especially considering that identifying useful compounds from microorganisms has been one of the most productive lines of reasoning in modern medical history. exceedingly arrogant and naive
for the nth time, i invite anyone to actually discuss and share notes about the talking points presented, specifically the ones in my posts, if you can find them between the attempts to derail anyone's meaningful conversation
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dankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23608666 - 09/03/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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So many words to say so little. Am I surprised? Not at all.
You really like insulting everyone's intelligence so much. But it's hard to communicate with these straw man arguments.
There aren't near as many "valid points" add you make it sound.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23608727 - 09/03/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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havent insulted anyone, only reminded you how arrogant and naive it is to write off entire lines of research, especially considering things like penicillin and thousands of other interesting compounds being isolated from microorganisms all the time... but i guess you will see and read what you want... certainly doesnt contribute much to any attempt at meaningful conversation though
again, for anyone actually interested in these topics as i am, here are a few of the many interesting talking points i have raised. and i would appreciate it if you would quit burying any post that attempts to bring the discussion back into the realm of interesting with out of context nonsense.. if you dont have anything to say what is the point?
it would be sooooo cool if we could tone down the animosity and talk about something interesting, or if you are not interested, then why bother?
Quote:
remember, it is often the metabolites, excretions, etc which give a microorganism its anti-bacterial or anti-fungal properties. for instance, penicillin mold produces a compound with strong antibiotic effects vs bacteria. when this was first discovered though, it was not feasible to produce enough to use, because of how little antibiotic was produced. The gov sent out PSAs to ask people to send in their moldy fruit, and eventually a little old lady sent in a moldy grapefruit that had a strain present which produced thousands of times the normal levels of the antibiotic
for this reason, it is an interesting thought to wonder if some of the antifungal/antibacterial metabolites/excretions produced by certain contaminants might be present after sterilizing the contaminated plate. If so, the sterile plate could retain some of the resistance to bacteria/fungi by virtue of the presence of these compounds after sterilization
a good question to ask is whether any of the common contams produce endospores or any other means of surviving the sterilization cycle?
another aspect to consider is that microorganisms routinely change simple building blocks into complex organic compounds. some of the constituents of contams might be more available to myc after the contam has broken it down or changed it into something else and then been killed off, leaving a very interestingly enhanced medium to experiment with.
there could very well be nutritional, antibacterial, antifungal, resistance and who knows what other kinds of possible benefits to this if it were applied in the right way, finding a "contam" that produced something useful and/or broke substrate down into something useful/helpful and then killing it off.
of course this is a double edged sword: many "contams" will just eat up the same nutrient the myc wants, and leave little to nothing useful for the myc. some probably even have metabolites/excretions/components which inhibit the growth of cube myc (like a broad antifungal).
lets try to actually expand on the context of the talking points presented, rather than doing the ego circle jerk that has become the norm around here since RR (god bless him, damn i miss him) has been gone
excellent point you make about the fish out of water. that understanding should really inform all of our endeavors with mushroom culture in artificial environments. As complicated as things can be when dealing with a single microorganism (that becomes macro) , we should definitely think twice before adding any much more aggressive, even predatory, microorganisms into the mix
the metabolites are absolutely fascinating, both cubensis metabolites and contam (or other microorganisms) metabolites probably have some interesting compounds in them, and i bet new ones are being discovered all the time
also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc
bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered
Quote:
sandy_vag said: Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
excellent point. though im surprised this hadnt registered with more people, this is exactly what led me to wonder about this concept.
it is a given that any spawn or substrate (including cvg) is going to have lots of other microorganisms present, and that that is the whole point of sterilizing/pasteurizing. which means that our substrates and spawn are already enhanced in this way, if only slightly. what is interesting is wondering how much effect this has over what we are culturing
there are several components to consider when determining what might be left over, including but not limited to:
-the species of microorganism in question -metabolites/excretions -components (what the organism is actually made of; cell walls etc) -how the microorganism breaks down the medium, and what it breaks it down into -which of these compounds survives sterilization
also it is important to remember that when we are talking about our spawn/substrate, this occurs on a spectrum, in various amounts, depending on what organisms are present, the substrate, and the factors above. and it could happen a little bit or a lot. so it definitely doesnt "break the post", just reminds people of something they had either forgotten or were taking for granted.
if anything this underscores why there is so much value to this line of thinking
obviously context is everything here: something like this is not going to make it any easier to grow or get clean cultures. but for someone like myself who spends several hours a day reading in academic databases, who is totally fascinated by the amazing stuff being published literally every single day, discussions about this kind of stuff are one of my favorite things about the shroomery, especially picking the brains of those who can offer insight beyond "this is a waste of time" because they assume your interest is limited to trying to grow cubes more easily
its fascinating to think about how much the presence of dead microbes, their metabolites, and their constituents already influence our projects, since the microbiological diversity could vary greatly between substrates (hpoo, straw, CVG, etc) or even between individual samples of the same type of substrate.
btw, do you have any notes on which microorganisms you have experience with that have been particularly aggressive, especially if it seems to inhibit the growth of other microorganisms? of course as you pointed out, most fungal species lower the PH of the medium, but have you noticed any other interesting characteristics? im particularly interested in learning more about the different types of antibiotics and antifungal compounds produced by microorganisms.
this was not presented as a way for people who cant keep a grow clean to get a clean culture more easily, that is totally out of context, though it has made up the majority of the discussion in this thread. so of course it is pointless in the context you described, but thats not what we are talking about.
of course this isnt going to help anyone get a clean culture more easily, and if they struggle with that then they have no practical application for this at all. but it certainly makes for good talking points (unless its twisted completely out of context)
this topic was not meant to be an experiment, a tek, a theory, a challenge, a way to do things better, or anything else all these criticisms assume. I think OP just overestimated people's ability to connect the dots and have a meaningful and interesting discussion without having their whole thought process derailed by a dumb question.
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amidogen
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o] 1
#23608775 - 09/03/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:34 AM)
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23608800 - 09/03/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, stop fucking posting if you have nothing to do other than shit on people. Go to the pub if you need to shit on something.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23608807 - 09/03/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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i would just prefer to restrict the conversation to the valid talking points, and whether you believe it or not, there are LOTS of people on this forum who are interested in this kind of thing. if you arent, what is the point in poopooing those who are?
also the quotes have been different each time, so as to be somewhat inclusive summing up various points so that anyone who wants to know what im talking about wont have to dig through dozens of posts about dragons and unicorns to figure out what it was that that crazy c10 guy finds so interesting
it has been acknowledged several times that this is not something that is going to help a newbie get a clean culture, and that the thread would have been better suited to advanced. i dont think it was ever meant to help people get clean cultures more easily, it was meant to be talking points
to the little old lady point: where do you think a project like that originated? from people being interested in learning about this kind of thing. every post isnt meant to be an end sum game, and personally i think talking about this stuff is incredibly valuable to those who are interested in it and could lead someone to investigate deeper, or share info.
i really dont get it, if you arent interested, why participate in the conversation, burying anyones attempts at a meaningful conversation with nonsense?
some of us actually enjoy learning about this stuff, i could care less about hearing myself talk. but why participate in the conversation if you dont care?
and there is no "negative response", this is not some company or tek im invested in, it is meant to be an discussion about some interesting ideas, and i broadened the conversation with my own thoughts. it is not an appeal to some kind of "positive" or "negative" value judgement, like im trying to sell something :/ some of us are actually interested in learning, and could care less about that kind of egocentric judgment, beyond how easily it distracts people from anything meaningful
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Edited by c10h12n2o (09/03/16 05:52 PM)
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amidogen
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o] 1
#23608857 - 09/03/16 06:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:35 AM)
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23609060 - 09/03/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
amidogen said: I'm not shitting on people and I'm absolutely interested. But you keep getting pissed off when people ask you to come down to earth and stop being so nebulous about it, to give something concrete instead of just a "what if".
im not the least bit pissed off, about anything (other than ron paul not being in this election lol), and dont want to come off as such. this is just a fascinating field of study and a little bit of meaningful discussion could go a long way towards broadening my understanding (and anyone else who is interested in this type of stuff
my main reason for joining the thread was because i found it fascinating, and hope that i can learn something from the discussion. and to try to bring the discussion back to the realm of interesting topics.
im certainly not invested in the idea emotionally, financially, or otherwise, just see lots of potential in similar lines of thought and enjoy picking peoples brains and finding new topics to research.
hell, i havent even made any arguments, nor do i even think there is an argument being had, just misdirection
i dont think anything was meant to be a concrete argument, tek, or anything of the like, but planting seeds, sharing good info, and asking the right questions is EXACTLY the fertile soil which concrete benefits grow in
Quote:
Look, let's try and get this back on the right foot and in the direction you're asking for. You've said you have access to academic databases. That gives you something most people here don't have and you could contribute an enormous amount of what I'm asking for to this thread. I doubt there's going to be any papers concerning the metabolites produced by psilocybin species since they were scheduled, but what about similar species? Paneolus perhaps? I think finding papers concerning applications of metabolites would be even more interesting than those purely concerned with composition, but probably harder to find. That was the topic I picked from your list, but I'd be interested to read a paper you find on any of the topics you listed.
much obliged my good man this is exactly the kind of discussion i was hoping for.
i am more than happy to share any of my findings, and anything i think yall might find interesting. there is a surprising amount published, even about active species, but especially concerning the families that show some potential for anti-cancer and anti-retroviral compounds, since thats where lots of the funding and grant money is at
(btw here is a thread i made about a study that was published this summer, which is good info that anyone in the hobby should be aware of DNA-Based Taxonomic ID
i havent yet found much directly on the metabolites of active species yet, but i suspect it has more to do with me not searching for the right thing or in the right place, rather than a complete lack of research on the topic. thats why i LOVE LOVE LOVE picking up vocabulary terms like anastomosis, because it broadens the scope of my research
there are also some really promising broad spectrum antibiotics that have been found recently, with more all the time. most of these are being researched in the context of trying to combat antibiotic-resistant strains of common pathogens, so the research is not likely to mention psilocybin, but they often do mention qualities of the compounds analyzed, such as whether or not they survive the sterilization cycle
so it can be tricky to connect the dots and find what you are looking for sometimes, especially with academic studies. knowing exactly what youre looking for (and the industry terms/jargon) helps a lot
Quote:
Is this better? This is what I've been asking for. Please, take it as it is and not as shitting on someone. If you've got access to this enormous resource, please put it to use for this thread. That's where real research that would drive this forward is going to start. Once we get to that point, then maybe we can even start trying to enter the realm of doing something related to this thread. All I'm saying is we have to get off the ground here. If it came across the wrong way then I'm sorry, but I think it's a valid point 
very valid and quite welcome 
part of the reason i was so excited to find this thread was because i hoped that the discussion would help me narrow down the focus of my digging through academic databases, maybe pick up some good vocabulary words, maybe build on some other people's ideas, hopefully broaden the scope of my investigation into these topics.In this forum, you never know when someone might chime in with some brilliant tidbit that changes my whole perspective and gives me a whole new list of topics to delve into
let me know if you have any suggestions, or if you ever want me to pull a paper or something from the databases for you, id be glad to
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23610295 - 09/04/16 06:27 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said:
Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said: resulting in shrumans
And to think someone suggested this conversation wasn't going anywhere productive..
 
Quote:
c10h12n2o said: i dont even see anything to respond to, just more ego bs
anyone who actually has anything valid to say about any of the MANY valid talking points that have been brought up (i enumerated many in my post), any info to share, etc., it is very welcome, and im willing to bet i am not the only one who appreciates it
all this bs is doing is making it clear who is NOT going to contribute anything helpful (which would have been better served by silence)
writing off entire avenues of research is just naive and arrogant, especially considering that identifying useful compounds from microorganisms has been one of the most productive lines of reasoning in modern medical history. exceedingly arrogant and naive
for the nth time, i invite anyone to actually discuss and share notes about the talking points presented, specifically the ones in my posts, if you can find them between the attempts to derail anyone's meaningful conversation
Whoops I thought I was helping
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23610344 - 09/04/16 06:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Almost every kid in college has access to scientific database even if their major is gluten free Feminism. Not only that if you're not a retard you can get through the pay wall on almost every article even if you don't have university library access. There's lots of interesting papers, that don't relate to this at all
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23610361 - 09/04/16 07:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I'm loving that the amazon shop for link says toilet paper and pH strips random
-------------------- COCA GROWERS come here and share your knowledge COCA GROWERS UNITE
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spacechildo
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23610471 - 09/04/16 07:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Wow...this is still going on? What exactly is it people dont understand here? This sounds like something 2 stoned kids would sit and think and laugh about, not something for a MC forum to be actually discussing like it has any value.
noob with 60 posts hit the nail on the head and most regulars explained why you wont be able to "train" or in any way shape or form help your cubes out by adding metabolites to a contamed sub/media!
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo]
#23610478 - 09/04/16 07:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Remember let's use science so we don't have to use clean cultures anymore
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spacechildo
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23610489 - 09/04/16 07:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I hear a lot of talk about science in this thread but I dont see it being applied here common sense FTW!
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo]
#23610543 - 09/04/16 08:18 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said: I hear a lot of talk about science in this thread but I dont see it being applied here common sense FTW!
we're not splitting atoms we're growing mushrooms is it really that hard to follow sterile technique that you need to design a mycelium to do the work for you, plus surely wouldn't a evolved contams emerge that potentially would overcome this like how antibiotics are starting to be useless be the viruses are becoming resistant
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Edited by mrmazdarx9 (09/04/16 08:29 AM)
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dankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23610546 - 09/04/16 08:19 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said: I'm loving that the amazon shop for link says toilet paper and pH strips random
The suggestion for toilet paper is because this whole idea is crap. It's like a dr. saying he can give me immunity to AIDS by giving me just the tip. Just as logical.
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Terpfreak
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23610547 - 09/04/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I just imagined someone riding a wave of fast growing mycellium through towns, pillaging and plunderinng. Maybe he's after world domination.
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23610562 - 09/04/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dankington said:
Quote:
mrmazdarx9 said: I'm loving that the amazon shop for link says toilet paper and pH strips random
The suggestion for toilet paper is because this whole idea is crap. It's like a dr. saying he can give me immunity to AIDS by giving me just the tip. Just as logical.
 I'm not gonna use your doctor if he's offering stick his tip in me lol
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23610920 - 09/04/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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If this ain't cruisin toward a lock then I don't know what is..
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23610928 - 09/04/16 10:39 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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yeah seriously this is being treated like the pub...its getting ridiculous.
Wait how does one avoid the pay obstacles on scholarly articles? Through public libraries? (seriously shitposters? go troll another thread, nobodies had any witty slams in over 3 pages)
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23610944 - 09/04/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Most of any real ground (very little) has already been covered here. It was boarderline trollery from the OP and it's going nowhere fast. If there is nothing seriously on topic with in the next 5 posts (and valid; perhaps peer reviewed and actually applicable to the cultivation of mushrooms) I can't really see this thread staying open.
Either post something real or let it die. Enough is enough.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23610978 - 09/04/16 11:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I just found an interesting tidbit. I don't know hardly anything about viruses.
"some viruses can be quite beneficial (Pearson et al., 2009) or detrimental (Dalzoto et al., 2006; Wu et al., 2007) to their host. In fact, reduced virulence of plant fungal pathogens caused by mycoviruses (i.e. hypovirulence) has raised much attention for its potential as a biocontrol strategy to protect economically important crops."
http://femsec.oxfordjournals.org/content/88/3/437
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23610995 - 09/04/16 11:09 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That artical has zero reference to the topic of cultivation of saprotrophs let alone cubensis. It's interesting but essentially meaningless to our aims. If this thead was posted in advanced and the title was "cultivation of amanita muscaria" it might be relevant.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23611006 - 09/04/16 11:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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interesting interesting interesting
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23611007 - 09/04/16 11:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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If we move the goal posts any further it definitely won't be considered the same game anymore... This is feeling like grasping at straws when you're digging up ANYTHING that could possibly be remotely construed by nobody in particular as somewhat related.
Not even trying to be a dick.. it's just feeling desperate in here and drawing that out of people is really not the point of these types of discussions. The person demonstrating the value of these ideas should at least be confident enough to be able to give a real lead.
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23611014 - 09/04/16 11:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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So hostile. I just happened to be reading this paper and thought it would be interesting to the handful of people actually getting something out of this thread.
Like, I'm just stoned on a forum trying to discuss what I find interesting about this hobby with the community and....this, this is your reaction. If the subforum of choice is the issue then move it.
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Inocuole
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23611021 - 09/04/16 11:16 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: So hostile.
Fuck it, I'm hiding this shit, won't matter if it's locked or not... If you think that's hostile, imagine if I were actually hostile.
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mrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23611027 - 09/04/16 11:18 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: So hostile.
Fuck it, I'm hiding this shit, won't matter if it's locked or not... If you think that's hostile, imagine if I were actually hostile.
Lol poke the bull get the horns
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Boogieman47
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
#23611073 - 09/04/16 11:33 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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What if you were to make an lc with antibiotics the made agar with a different kind of antibiotics then make an lc with a something a bit different basically growing out the myc over months of transfers in a solution to give it higher immune systems? If antibiotics isn't a good idea then something in the vicinity that would be more beneficial to myc growth yet helping it get stronger
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dankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23611092 - 09/04/16 11:41 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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But antibiotics weaken the subject's immunity over time, while increasing immunity of the pathogens. Seems dangerous; that's why MRSA is such a problem.
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Boogieman47
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23611117 - 09/04/16 11:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ya that shits nasty .. well I know from a thread I made that antibiotics isn't good but maybe there is something that is beneficial sort of like antibiotic but not that you could basically make a test tube cubensis specie or any for that matter I really don't think it's possible either and know like pasty said if it was to happen it would Fuck up a shit ton of eco systems cause imagine how fast that shit would grow
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bodhisatta 
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23611192 - 09/04/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: yeah seriously this is being treated like the pub...its getting ridiculous.
Wait how does one avoid the pay obstacles on scholarly articles? Through public libraries? (seriously shitposters? go troll another thread, nobodies had any witty slams in over 3 pages)
Google bro, 99.9% of every pay article is a PDF somewhere on the web with nothing in your way. There's also a few good search engines for just this particular thing
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Psilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23611249 - 09/04/16 12:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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well shit, I've been hitting a brick wall that wasn't real for years.
Thanks
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23611261 - 09/04/16 12:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Send me a PM and when I'm home ill give you some links and tips
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23612301 - 09/04/16 06:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I posted a while back telling people how to access academic databases, in case anyone else enjoys reading more than shitting on whole fields of research, and think peer review is a more meaningful dynamic than post count, but it got burried by all this meaningless out of context nonsense just like all the valid talking points.
Welcome to the new pub everyone , where we completely ignore all the valid talking points and shit on whole concepts we don't even understand.
If anyone has the ability to be un-derailed by this nonsense and quit talking about "training myc " long enough to discuss some of the things that are actually interesting, like the many discussion points I have brought up
If you have to take something completely out of context to mount a criticism and doesn't address a single discussion point, it's not valid
Some of us have an interest in this stuff, if you don't and your only intention is to bury any attempt at productive conversation, then I would kindly ask you find a topic you are interested in (thanks inocuole )
I mean what's the point?
Back to topic
Noob47: thanks for thinking 
It is important to remember that there is a whole lot of antibiotics and antifungals with new ones discovered every day
And also that there are thresholds for these compounds effects. Just because an antibiotic is present doesn't mean that it is present in meaningful quantities . Similar to how penicillin was present in the environment for ages, but other organisms still survived and thrived because the quantity was so low. That's why it was so important to find a strain that produced more in order to be medically viable
So even if a super effective antibiotic is produced, there are still thresholds to consider, and it almost certainly would not (and does not) "wreck ecosystems "
Also, just like antibiotic agar we use now, it is essential to know whether the antibiotic compounds survive the sterilization cycle, like gentamicin does (which is why it's viable for antibiotic agar, etc
Also important to understand that supplementing with antibiotics DOES NOT strengthen immune systems, quite the opposite. Antibiotics are basically selective poisons, and after several generations of not having to fight bacteria, I would suspect the innate Immune responses to get weaker, if anything, since the antibiotics would preclude certain kinds of competition (in the right concentration)
I've actually quite enjoyed reading the 3 papers linked by OP, though as pasty said, they bear little to no direct relevance to our hobby. However it certainly brings up some fascinating concepts, since similar mechanisms could and probably do exist within cube sis culture
Makes me wonder about a few things, and I'd love y'all's feedback:
Has anyone noticed any particular microorganisms which cohabitate with cubensis cultures, which are beneficial or at least not harmful? I know firefang, but do yall know any I can add to my list? I'm particularly interested in learning of more of these types of microorganisms that I can investigate and learn more about their metabolism
Also, on the other end, has anyone identified any particular microorganisms which seem to inhibit the growth of cube myc? Obviously trich and other molds lower PH which has that effect, but has anyone noticed any other particular microorganisms that have interesting effects on the myc? I ask so that I can learn more about those microorganisms, and look into possible metabolites and constituents which might be of interest
--------------------
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Edited by c10h12n2o (09/04/16 07:22 PM)
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spacechildo
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23612362 - 09/04/16 07:12 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I agree, its pretty annoying how the close minded people on this site reign, this thread doesnt need to go backwards thinking mushrooms have CNS or anything similar to an immune system. I'm not quite sure where you want this thread to go tho, most the points raised has been attended to and most here seem to have learned a little bit in the process
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo]
#23612418 - 09/04/16 07:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I can't tell if people are looking for a way to create super cubes that can overpower contams or if they are looking for something to make the food source only able to be consumed by the cubes. The sheer lack of focus on this "topic" is half the problem.
We already use antibiotics in media in the hobby. Anyone who has done so understands quite well the benefits and pitfalls. Gentamiacin or tetracycline have very specific uses and are irreplaceable in some respects. However I would never use them unless in the utmost need. Most bacteria and molds are easy enough to transfer away from. I could never imagine using them in a media intended to support a fruiting colony. The loss in the cultures vigor would certainly hurt yields.
Again I will say doing teaches more than talking. Most of this information is on the site and the net in general. I read RR say the same thing about antibiotics a dozen times. But it wasn't until I started to mess around with them that I really understood what he meant.
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo]
#23612462 - 09/04/16 07:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ideally, discussion and insights that broaden my research and understanding , or help me hone in on the things I am already interested in, like identifying particular microorganisms to study
I got a hungry brain haha... Not trying to make super cultures or anything of the like, just trying to learn and broaden the scope of my research. Hell, the only concrete benefit that directly comes from the discussion I am here for is planting seeds for more questions and deeper research, anyone thinking this will help them get a clean culture, or limiting their interpretation of the conversation to that context, is making a serious mistake and probably wasting their time
Unfortunately there is frustratingly little direct research into these topics as they directly relate to cubensis culture, so if you want to dig deep you often have to take a nonlinear approach. I.e., we aren't going to find a paper on the antibiotics present in cubensis metabolites, but we might find a paper on how a particular microbe might cause reishi to produce antibiotics that aren't produced otherwise.
While that's not directly relevant to cube culture, it leads someone like me to wonder if there might be a similar mechanism in cubensis (and there probably is, considering the increased metabolites produced when the culture is competing with certain types of microorganisms)
So one way to research this kind of stuff is by identifying microorganisms which may activate this mechanism, and learning about their metabolism , constituents, etc
I'm also fascinated by the ways microorganisms transform their substrate, and which ones might make certain nutrients or complex organic compounds available to subsequent cultures, which would otherwise be unavailable to our cube cultures. The cube myc could very well turn these building blocks into something cool
Again:
Quote:
.Has anyone noticed any particular microorganisms which cohabitate with cubensis cultures, which are beneficial or at least not harmful? I know firefang, but do yall know any I can add to my list? I'm particularly interested in learning of more of these types of microorganisms that I can investigate and learn more about their metabolism
Also, on the other end, has anyone identified any particular microorganisms which seem to inhibit the growth of cube myc? Obviously trich and other molds lower PH which has that effect, but has anyone noticed any other particular microorganisms that have interesting effects on the myc? I ask so that I can learn more about those microorganisms, and look into possible metabolites and constituents which might be of interest
--------------------
  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Edited by c10h12n2o (09/04/16 07:51 PM)
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Boogieman47
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23612506 - 09/04/16 08:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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But if basically the only thing that would be able to kill the cubes were bugs animals and humans wouldn't it just run rampid through the environment? And mushrooms may not have immune systems I don't know what they have but they do excrete metabolites so I meant as far as making their metabolites stronger ... because everybody everyday has myc on agar that gets hit with trich or something else that's nasty that they save with some technique so if infecting it with those things things would make myc stronger or resistant wouldn't that have already happened? And even if you did wouldn't once you grow and get spores or clones just take you right back to square one?
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Pastywhyte
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23612663 - 09/04/16 08:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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You are overthinking what cubes want or need. They need very little, and in a domestic setting act as primary decomposers. They will do their absolute best with no other organisim present, they are not like agaricus and actually require other species to be present in order to fruit.
Because of this very little work is done beyond the basic understanding of the function of thermophyles and their role in warding off mold for a short window. One might be able to dig up some similar research regarding agaricus but I doubt you will find anything peer reviewed in the same manner for cubes.
Certainly my own experience tells me that such avenues are dead ends and will not result in even marginal yield or potency increases. There are people hear who I greatly respect who will disagree with that. Which is why I never understood why people get so butthurt over people not agreeing with each other. Shit the people I learned the most from in this hobby are the ones I argued with the most.
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Boogieman47
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23612707 - 09/04/16 08:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Well no one wants to hear they are wrong plain and simple getting through an argument and still being friends is what is important that's why they say you can't have too many cooks in the kitchen ... two mechanics both great at what they do will argue for hours over shit same with mycologist .... so I'm wrong about the myc taking over it's environment if it was to be contam resistant ?
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c10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23612726 - 09/04/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
But if basically the only thing that would be able to kill the cubes were bugs animals and humans wouldn't it just run rampid through the environment?
no no no, the natural ecosystem is a lot more complicated than that. hell, even the artificial ecosystems we create are a lot more complicated than that.
in nature, things arent as black and white as some of our analogies paint it. Ecosystems are more complicated than rock paper scissors. I dont think there is an organism on earth that can only be killed in 3 or 4 ways, or that requires a certain type of other organism to kill it.
nature is an amazing patchwork of species, interconnected by complex relationships. Trying to make a cubensis culture which cant be killed by contams, or whatever it is we are talking about in this particular example, is very misguided for lots of reasons
for instance, why dont the military make a soldier that can only be killed by aliens? or why doesnt monsanto make a variety of wheat that waters itself? these questions are misguided because they misunderstand the nature of the threats posed, and they misunderstand the lifecycles involved, the resources present, and the ways in which microorganisms interact with one another
the interaction between compounds like antibiotics and organisms like bacteria occurs on a continuum, where one amount of antibiotic might be enough to kill off a colony, where another amount might be too little to even affect the colony. complicating matters even more, a colony subjected to amounts small enough not to inhibit its lifecycle may very well acquire some resistance after a few generations, meaning it would require even more to kill them off.
nature isnt as simple as sports, where one team looses and one wins. things cohabitate and compete for the same resources. one of the main reasons trich is such a problem is because it is so aggressive in colonizing the substrate, and in a controlled environment it can (usually) outpace what we are culturing. this is not because trich beats cube like rock beats scissors, it is a matter of competing for the same resources, and competing to become well-established in the substrate
for example: just because penicillin is present doesnt mean that all organisms which CAN be killed by the antibiotic WILL be killed by the amount of antibiotic present.
what is interesting and viable, is trying to identify the other ways in which competing microorganisms edge eachother out, including metabolites/antibiotics/antifungals, etc., and trying to understand what it is about the cubensis metabolism that makes it vulnerable to the vectors employed by competing species. equally interesting is trying to learn about the various ways in which the lifecycle and metabolism of other microorganisms allows them to outcompete (or be outcompeted by) cubensis
Quote:
And mushrooms may not have immune systems I don't know what they have but they do excrete metabolites so I meant as far as making their metabolites stronger ... because everybody everyday has myc on agar that gets hit with trich or something else that's nasty that they save with some technique so if infecting it with those things things would make myc stronger or resistant wouldn't that have already happened?
maybe not an immune system per se , but fungi certainly have something analogous to a system of immune resoponses. when you say "make the metabolites stronger", what exactly do we mean by that? i would encourage you not to think in terms of the "strength" of a compound for this application, but rather think in terms of effectiveness for a particular application at a particular concentration.
remember, as pasty pointed out, that antibiotics are not magic. they certainly arent a magic bullet that makes cube culture infinitely easier (which seems to be what some people are looking for in this line of research; they wont find it). if that were the case, gentamicin would be as ubiquitous in our hobby as coir. Antibiotics can cause a lot of problems, and supplementing our projects with them usually causes more harm than goood, except in the right applications
also
the first step towards something useful in that vein of thought would be to identify which competitors have interesting qualities and determine the ways in which compounds present in cube metabolites actually function as an antibiotic. Also, take into consideration the various environmental/physical ways which these metabolites might influence their competitors (like lowering PH; that isnt an antibiotic but definitely helps mold become established).
my research on fungal metabolites suggests that there can be HUGE variation in the metabolites produced between samples of the same species. Several studies have delved into the ways competing microorganisms influence which compounds are produced, and many others confirm that the substrate make-up also bears some influence over which compounds are produced.
Since the presence of competing organisms and environmental factors can have such a strong bearing on the compounds produced, any discussion of cubensis metabolites should bear these factors in mind, noting that the compounds present in one sample of cubensis metabolites may vary greatly from another
and bear in mind that cubensis already does quite well when competing with most microorganisms in nature, as opposed to the "fish out of water" environment of our projects. There are lots of reasons for this, but to think its because one microorganism is stronger than the other is a gross oversimplification. the mechanisms involved in the balance we see in nature are poorly understood as a whole, but one thing we know for sure is that it is very complex. it can be quite a challenge measuring these aspects, which is why it is so nice to read through academic studies and learn how they measure and control for some of these aspects
In nature, the same qualities that allow contams like trich to thrive in our artificial ecosystems have an entirely different effect. If not, and trich was so "strong" ,wouldnt trichoderma be covering every viable surface on the planet? of course not. because in nature there is immense microbial diversity, and that balance allows species to thrive within their niche, in spite of (or even because of) all the competing, cohabiting microorganisms
so it very much depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Edited by c10h12n2o (09/04/16 09:05 PM)
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23612771 - 09/04/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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You're quite ejamacated friend in reality I'm just trying to accomplish great grows and think just trying to make sure everything is going right is hard enough ... too be honest if it was made so easy as to being able to just noc up jars with spore syringes no problem I don't think it would be as fun or as interesting as it is ... I do like learning so trying to better understand the job at hand I'm all for it being it something plausible or not like what has been said many times in here I think there is alot of interesting shit on this thread and like to see people of a higher level then myself argue and make points to their thoughts of each process
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23614289 - 09/05/16 10:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right, antibiotics aren't the only kind of metabolite.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23614296 - 09/05/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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plus it seems odd that antibiotics in nature would just breed stronger contams. what kind of survival mechanism is that?
Is it not a faction in the microbial arms race, developing right along with the others? idk
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 2
#23614305 - 09/05/16 10:19 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: plus it seems odd that antibiotics in nature would just breed stronger contams. what kind of survival mechanism is that?
google antibiotics + india. that's exactly what's happening.
You do know that metabolites aren't antibiotics tho right? but that antibiotics can be derived from said metabolites?
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23614336 - 09/05/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I still have no idea what we want out of this thread. Like some super metabolites to give cubes to defeat contams? Or a substrate that can only be grown on by cubes and nothing else?
Also yeah trich is in every single inch of soil on this planet. Trich turns its substrate black outside. Throw away a trichy tub, you'll see what I mean. Just because the entire ground isn't green, doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means it's not sporulating everywhere.
Sure there are other organisms that grow up and produce when in the presence of other parasitic competitors, just like cubes. But once they've expended what they can, the competitors will be the last decomposers until it's turned to soil. In those cases the metabolites are just going to slow the competitors down, not kill them. The best way to keep trich and what not out, is to work on being clean. Outdoors, yes it can grow and fruit outside even with trich present, it can do it for years even, but there's a reason why every inch of soil has trich in it.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo] 1
#23614425 - 09/05/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
spacechildo said:
Quote:
rbalzer said: plus it seems odd that antibiotics in nature would just breed stronger contams. what kind of survival mechanism is that?
google antibiotics + india. that's exactly what's happening.
You do know that metabolites aren't antibiotics tho right? but that antibiotics can be derived from said metabolites?
Fuel ethanol uses corn as you might know. Well before fermentation for ethanol the mash is usually boiled so that its free from contamination that would compete with yeast. Well that's too much energy and work. So fuel ethanol has a waiver from the Feds to use huge amounts of antibiotics in their fermentation so that yield doesn't suffer from acid forming bacteria getting a foothold. Then it's dumped out in your rivers and fields.
So E85% is the exact opposite of friendlier for the world
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