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Invisibledankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #23608666 - 09/03/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

So many words to say so little. Am I surprised? Not at all.

You really like insulting everyone's intelligence so much. But it's hard to communicate with these straw man arguments.

There aren't near as many "valid points" add you make it sound.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
    #23608727 - 09/03/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

havent insulted anyone, only reminded you how arrogant and naive it is to write off entire lines of research, especially considering things like penicillin and thousands of other interesting compounds being isolated from microorganisms all the time... but i guess you will see and read what you want... certainly doesnt contribute much to any attempt at meaningful conversation though

again, for anyone actually interested in these topics as i am, here are a few of the many interesting talking points i have raised. and i would appreciate it if you would quit burying any post that attempts to bring the discussion back into the realm of interesting with out of context nonsense.. if you dont have anything to say what is the point?

it would be sooooo cool if we could tone down the animosity and talk about something interesting, or if you are not interested, then why bother?

Quote:

remember, it is often the metabolites, excretions, etc which give a microorganism its anti-bacterial or anti-fungal properties. for instance, penicillin mold produces a compound with strong antibiotic effects vs bacteria. when this was first discovered though, it was not feasible to produce enough to use, because of how little antibiotic was produced. The gov sent out PSAs to ask people to send in their moldy fruit, and eventually a little old lady sent in a moldy grapefruit that had a strain present which produced thousands of times the normal levels of the antibiotic

for this reason, it is an interesting thought to wonder if some of the antifungal/antibacterial metabolites/excretions produced by certain contaminants might be present after sterilizing the contaminated plate. If so, the sterile plate could retain some of the resistance to bacteria/fungi by virtue of the presence of these compounds after sterilization

a good question to ask is whether any of the common contams produce endospores or any other means of surviving the sterilization cycle?

another aspect to consider is that microorganisms routinely change simple building blocks into complex organic compounds. some of the constituents of contams might be more available to myc after the contam has broken it down or changed it into something else and then been killed off, leaving a very interestingly enhanced medium to experiment with.

there could very well be nutritional, antibacterial, antifungal, resistance and who knows what other kinds of possible benefits to this if it were applied in the right way, finding a "contam" that produced something useful and/or broke substrate down into something useful/helpful and then killing it off.

of course this is a double edged sword: many "contams" will just eat up the same nutrient the myc wants, and leave little to nothing useful for the myc. some probably even have metabolites/excretions/components which inhibit the growth of cube myc (like a broad antifungal).

lets try to actually expand on the context of the talking points presented, rather than doing the ego circle jerk that has become the norm around here since RR (god bless him, damn i miss him) has been gone

excellent point you make about the fish out of water. that understanding should really inform all of our endeavors with mushroom culture in artificial environments. As complicated as things can be when dealing with a single microorganism (that becomes macro) , we should definitely think twice before adding any much more aggressive, even predatory, microorganisms into the mix

the metabolites are absolutely fascinating, both cubensis metabolites and contam (or other microorganisms) metabolites probably have some interesting compounds in them, and i bet new ones are being discovered all the time

also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc

bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered

Quote:

sandy_vag said:
Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.

excellent point. though im surprised this hadnt registered with more people, this is exactly what led me to wonder about this concept.

it is a given that any spawn or substrate (including cvg) is going to have lots of other microorganisms present, and that that is the whole point of sterilizing/pasteurizing. which means that our substrates and spawn are already enhanced in this way, if only slightly. what is interesting is wondering how much effect this has over what we are culturing

there are several components to consider when determining what might be left over, including but not limited to:

-the species of microorganism in question
-metabolites/excretions
-components (what the organism is actually made of; cell walls etc)
-how the microorganism breaks down the medium, and what it breaks it down into
-which of these compounds survives sterilization

also it is important to remember that when we are talking about our spawn/substrate, this occurs on a spectrum, in various amounts, depending on what organisms are present, the substrate, and the factors above. and it could happen a little bit or a lot. so it definitely doesnt "break the post", just reminds people of something they had either forgotten or were taking for granted.

if anything this underscores why there is so much value to this line of thinking

obviously context is everything here: something like this is not going to make it any easier to grow or get clean cultures. but for someone like myself who spends several hours a day reading in academic databases, who is totally fascinated by the amazing stuff being published literally every single day, discussions about this kind of stuff are one of my favorite things about the shroomery, especially picking the brains of those who can offer insight beyond "this is a waste of time" because they assume your interest is limited to trying to grow cubes more easily

its fascinating to think about how much the presence of dead microbes, their metabolites, and their constituents already influence our projects, since the microbiological diversity could vary greatly between substrates (hpoo, straw, CVG, etc) or even between individual samples of the same type of substrate.

btw, do you have any notes on which microorganisms you have experience with that have been particularly aggressive, especially if it seems to inhibit the growth of other microorganisms? of course as you pointed out, most fungal species lower the PH of the medium, but have you noticed any other interesting characteristics? im particularly interested in learning more about the different types of antibiotics and antifungal compounds produced by microorganisms.

this was not presented as a way for people who cant keep a grow clean to get a clean culture more easily, that is totally out of context, though it has made up the majority of the discussion in this thread. so of course it is pointless in the context you described, but thats not what we are talking about.

of course this isnt going to help anyone get a clean culture more easily, and if they struggle with that then they have no practical application for this at all. but it certainly makes for good talking points (unless its twisted completely out of context)

this topic was not meant to be an experiment, a tek, a theory, a challenge, a way to do things better, or anything else all these criticisms assume. I think OP just overestimated people's ability to connect the dots and have a meaningful and interesting discussion without having their whole thought process derailed by a dumb question.





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Invisibleamidogen
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o] * 1
    #23608775 - 09/03/16 05:31 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

.


Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:34 AM)


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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
    #23608800 - 09/03/16 05:41 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

No, stop fucking posting if you have nothing to do other than shit on people. Go to the pub if you need to shit on something.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
    #23608807 - 09/03/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

i would just prefer to restrict the conversation to the valid talking points, and whether you believe it or not, there are  LOTS of people on this forum who are interested in this kind of thing. if you arent, what is the point in poopooing those who are?

also the quotes have been different each time, so as to be somewhat inclusive summing up various points so that anyone who wants to know what im talking about wont have to dig through dozens of posts about dragons and unicorns to figure out what it was that that crazy c10 guy finds so interesting

it has been acknowledged several times that this is not something that is going to help a newbie get a clean culture, and that the thread would have been better suited to advanced. i dont think it was ever meant to help people get clean cultures more easily, it was meant to be talking points

to the little old lady point: where do you think a project like that originated? from people being interested in learning about this kind of thing. every post isnt meant to be an end sum game, and personally i think talking about this stuff is incredibly valuable to those who are interested in it and could lead someone to investigate deeper, or share info.

i really dont get it, if you arent interested, why participate in the conversation, burying anyones attempts at a meaningful conversation with nonsense?

some of us actually enjoy learning about this stuff, i could care less about hearing myself talk. but why participate in the conversation if you dont care?

and there is no "negative response", this is not some company or tek im invested in, it is meant to be an discussion about some interesting ideas, and i broadened the conversation with my own thoughts. it is not an appeal to some kind of "positive" or "negative" value judgement, like im trying to sell something :/ some of us are actually interested in learning, and could care less about that kind of egocentric judgment, beyond how easily it distracts people from anything meaningful


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"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche


Edited by c10h12n2o (09/03/16 05:52 PM)


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Invisibleamidogen
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o] * 1
    #23608857 - 09/03/16 06:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

.


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The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.


Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:35 AM)


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
    #23609060 - 09/03/16 07:21 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

amidogen said:
I'm not shitting on people and I'm absolutely interested. But you keep getting pissed off when people ask you to come down to earth and stop being so nebulous about it, to give something concrete instead of just a "what if".




im not the least bit pissed off, about anything (other than ron paul not being in this election lol), and dont want to come off as such. this is just a fascinating field of study and a little bit of meaningful discussion could go a long way towards broadening my understanding (and anyone else who is interested in this type of stuff

my main reason for joining the thread was because i found it fascinating, and hope that i can learn something from the discussion. and to try to bring the discussion back to the realm of interesting topics.

im certainly not invested in the idea emotionally, financially, or otherwise, just see lots of potential in similar lines of thought and enjoy picking peoples brains and finding new topics to research.

hell, i havent even made any arguments, nor do i even think there is an argument being had, just misdirection

i dont think anything was meant to be a concrete argument, tek, or anything of the like, but planting seeds, sharing good info, and asking the right questions is EXACTLY the fertile soil which concrete benefits grow in

Quote:

Look, let's try and get this back on the right foot and in the direction you're asking for. You've said you have access to academic databases. That gives you something most people here don't have and you could contribute an enormous amount of what I'm asking for to this thread. I doubt there's going to be any papers concerning the metabolites produced by psilocybin species since they were scheduled, but what about similar species? Paneolus perhaps? I think finding papers concerning applications of metabolites would be even more interesting than those purely concerned with composition, but probably harder to find. That was the topic I picked from your list, but I'd be interested to read a paper you find on any of the topics you listed.




much obliged my good man :thumbup: this is exactly the kind of discussion i was hoping for.

i am more than happy to share any of my findings, and anything i think yall might find interesting. there is a surprising amount published, even about active species, but especially concerning the families that show some potential for anti-cancer and anti-retroviral compounds, since thats where lots of the funding and grant money is at

(btw here is a thread i made about a study that was published this summer, which is good info that anyone in the hobby should be aware of DNA-Based Taxonomic ID

i havent yet found much directly on the metabolites of active species yet, but i suspect it has more to do with me not searching for the right thing or in the right place, rather than a complete lack of research on the topic. thats why i LOVE LOVE LOVE picking up vocabulary terms like anastomosis, because it broadens the scope of my research

there are also some really promising broad spectrum antibiotics that have been found recently, with more all the time. most of these are being researched in the context of trying to combat antibiotic-resistant strains of common pathogens, so the research is not likely to mention psilocybin, but they often do mention qualities of the compounds analyzed, such as whether or not they survive the sterilization cycle

so it can be tricky to connect the dots and find what you are looking for sometimes, especially with academic studies. knowing exactly what youre looking for  (and the industry terms/jargon) helps a lot

Quote:

Is this better? This is what I've been asking for. Please, take it as it is and not as shitting on someone. If you've got access to this enormous resource, please put it to use for this thread. That's where real research that would drive this forward is going to start. Once we get to that point, then maybe we can even start trying to enter the realm of doing something related to this thread. All I'm saying is we have to get off the ground here. If it came across the wrong way then I'm sorry, but I think it's a valid point :shrug:




very valid and quite welcome :thumbup:

part of the reason i was so excited to find this thread was because i hoped that the discussion would help me narrow down the focus of my digging through academic databases, maybe pick up some good vocabulary words, maybe build on some other people's ideas, hopefully broaden the scope of my investigation into these topics.In this forum, you never know when someone might chime in with some brilliant tidbit that changes my whole perspective and gives me a whole new list of topics to delve into

let me know if you have any suggestions, or if you ever want me to pull a paper or something from the databases for you, id be glad to :wink:


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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
    #23610295 - 09/04/16 06:27 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Inocuole said:
Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
resulting in shrumans





And to think someone suggested this conversation wasn't going anywhere productive..



:rofl::thumbup:
Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
i dont even see anything to respond to, just more ego bs

anyone who actually has anything valid to say about any of the MANY valid talking points that have been brought up (i enumerated many in my post), any info to share, etc., it is very welcome, and im willing to bet i am not the only one who appreciates it

all this bs is doing is making it clear who is NOT going to contribute anything helpful (which would have been better served by silence)

writing off entire avenues of research is just naive and arrogant, especially considering that identifying useful compounds from microorganisms has been one of the most productive lines of reasoning in modern medical history. exceedingly arrogant and naive

for the nth time, i invite anyone to actually discuss and share notes about the talking points presented, specifically the ones in my posts, if you can find them between the attempts to derail anyone's meaningful conversation



Whoops I thought I was helping:sorry:


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23610344 - 09/04/16 06:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Almost every kid in college has access to scientific database even if their major is gluten free Feminism. Not only that if you're not a retard you can get through the pay wall on almost every article even if you don't have university library access. There's lots of interesting papers, that don't relate to this at all


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23610361 - 09/04/16 07:01 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I'm loving that the amazon shop for link says toilet paper and pH strips random:tongue:


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23610471 - 09/04/16 07:47 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Wow...this is still going on? What exactly is it people dont understand here? This sounds like something 2 stoned kids would sit and think and laugh about, not something for a MC forum to be actually discussing like it has any value.

noob with 60 posts hit the nail on the head and most regulars explained why you wont be able to "train" or in any way shape or form help your cubes out by adding metabolites to a contamed sub/media!


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo]
    #23610478 - 09/04/16 07:52 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Remember let's use science so we don't have to use clean cultures anymore


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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
    #23610489 - 09/04/16 07:55 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I hear a lot of talk about science in this thread but I dont see it being applied here :shrug: common sense FTW!


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo]
    #23610543 - 09/04/16 08:18 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

spacechildo said:
I hear a lot of talk about science in this thread but I dont see it being applied here :shrug: common sense FTW!



:whathesaid: we're not splitting atoms we're growing mushrooms is it really that hard to follow sterile technique that you need to design a mycelium to do the work for you, plus surely wouldn't a evolved contams emerge that potentially would overcome this like how antibiotics are starting to be useless be the viruses are becoming resistant


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Edited by mrmazdarx9 (09/04/16 08:29 AM)


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Invisibledankington
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23610546 - 09/04/16 08:19 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
I'm loving that the amazon shop for link says toilet paper and pH strips random:tongue:




The suggestion for toilet paper is because this whole idea is crap.
It's like a dr. saying he can give me immunity to AIDS by giving me just the tip. Just as logical.


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OfflineTerpfreak
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23610547 - 09/04/16 08:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I just imagined someone riding a wave of fast growing mycellium through towns, pillaging and plunderinng. Maybe he's after world domination.


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
    #23610562 - 09/04/16 08:24 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dankington said:
Quote:

mrmazdarx9 said:
I'm loving that the amazon shop for link says toilet paper and pH strips random:tongue:




The suggestion for toilet paper is because this whole idea is crap.
It's like a dr. saying he can give me immunity to AIDS by giving me just the tip. Just as logical.



:rofl:
I'm not gonna use your doctor if he's offering stick his tip in me lol


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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23610920 - 09/04/16 10:37 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If this ain't cruisin toward a lock then I don't know what is..


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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #23610928 - 09/04/16 10:39 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

yeah seriously this is being treated like the pub...its getting ridiculous.

Wait how does one avoid the pay obstacles on scholarly articles? Through public libraries?
(seriously shitposters? go troll another thread, nobodies had any witty slams in over 3 pages)


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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #23610944 - 09/04/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Most of any real ground (very little) has already been covered here. It was boarderline trollery from the OP and it's going nowhere fast. If there is nothing seriously on topic with in the next 5 posts (and valid; perhaps peer reviewed and actually applicable to the cultivation of mushrooms) I can't really see this thread staying open.

Either post something real or let it die. Enough is enough.


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