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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Mad Season]
#23606573 - 09/02/16 10:55 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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That would be two for one right? Sirloin smothered in shrooms then we could legally sell the steak at 100$ with the cubes for free and the restaurant could have black lights strippers blackjack with glow in the dark cards and green beer
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23606585 - 09/02/16 11:00 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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morty422
Wuba-luba-dub-dub!



Registered: 07/06/16
Posts: 988
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23606720 - 09/03/16 12:36 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Pastywhyte said: Experiments have a hypothesis and are controlled. I am always enthusiastic about any thread demonstrating the use of those things. Too bad there are so few of them 
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Inocuole said: Is it really THAT hard to just accept that the idea isn't gonna work? It would take like 100x less time to get good enough at growing that you just didn't have issues with contams than it would to actually genetically modify a species to do something that it simply doesn't have the physical structure to do.
I don't understand why the animal analogies aren't doing it for you. You could try to breed sheep until you have aggressive sheep with claws and jaws like a bear so it could defend itself against coyotes, or you could just keep your sheep away from the fucking coyotes. If it was me, I'd go ahead and just build a fence, since investing time in a huge improbable maybe, that could have devastating consequences on ecosystems, just seems like a lot more work.
The mycelium does not have claws and jaws to defend itself against mold.
Can you find a way to stop mosquitos from biting you in your sleep?
"Oh well I'll just breed myself to have metal skin further down the genetic line!"
The probabilities are about the same here. Even if it did work you'd end up with retarded looking metallic dwarf babies who don't have any friends and probably get quarantined from everybody else, just like this super strain you're talking about that would completely devastate ecology and potentially trigger the end of the world if someone didn't get it under wraps quick. Being that it produces spores, this is a terrible deadly idea.
If that makes you mad, and makes you want to say things you might regret, you may have issues. 
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: morty422]
#23606775 - 09/03/16 01:20 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if the idea was that dumb you'd think it would be ignored.
riddle yourselves that.
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23606789 - 09/03/16 01:31 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I don't think anyone is trying to bash you but more the idea I'm sure alot of people would like contam free myc if it was possible it would be bad ass but who has the money to put forward they would rather do experiments on gorilla humans and finding ways to infiltrate everything we do for all we know they have shit like that but we the people will never see it ... it would probably be easier to make the myc stringer with antibiotics to build it's immune system then infect it bacteria
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23607047 - 09/03/16 06:53 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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rbalzer said: if the idea was that dumb you'd think it would be ignored.
riddle yourselves that.
Ridicule fits this better than ignoring.
We're going to be ultra science smart for the end goal of being able to cultivate like a moron because cubes would beat green mold.
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Terpfreak
❀Terpenes❀



Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 1,065
Loc: Land Of Ooo
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: bodhisatta]
#23607170 - 09/03/16 08:11 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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MS to boneless pork sirloin. No growth yet, maybe the pork doesnt have enough seasoning.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23607212 - 09/03/16 08:34 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
rbalzer said: if the idea was that dumb you'd think it would be ignored.
riddle yourselves that.
If that were logical, troll topics wouldn't ever be able to take off.
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23607447 - 09/03/16 10:13 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Terpfreak said:

MS to boneless pork sirloin. No growth yet, maybe the pork doesnt have enough seasoning.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
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SoulButter
Joint Chief of Soul


Registered: 06/23/15
Posts: 312
Last seen: 3 years, 3 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak] 1
#23607530 - 09/03/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Terpfreak said:

MS to boneless pork sirloin. No growth yet, maybe the pork doesnt have enough seasoning.
Try casing with 50/50 mashed potatoes and stuffing.
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Terpfreak
❀Terpenes❀



Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 1,065
Loc: Land Of Ooo
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: SoulButter]
#23607855 - 09/03/16 12:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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but casing the sirloin with heighten humidty . Oh no. Itll be too juicy.
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dankington
The Stranger




Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23607921 - 09/03/16 12:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just need to increase FAE a bit. You can tweak it.
This is fun
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: dankington]
#23608052 - 09/03/16 01:27 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Revolutionary stuff guys... really cracking the whole cultivation scene wide open with this.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23608064 - 09/03/16 01:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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if you'd rather than have a productive conversation 
seems nearly unanimous
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23608080 - 09/03/16 01:40 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Productive conversation? Where? Point me to it.
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Terpfreak
❀Terpenes❀



Registered: 07/08/16
Posts: 1,065
Loc: Land Of Ooo
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23608089 - 09/03/16 01:42 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23608131 - 09/03/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Pastywhyte said: Some people have a hard time with topics that are very unlikely to ever produce fruit. I challenge anyone to find a thread in advanced that ever turned into something useful.
Mush cult is a place where success needs to be found. It's where the new come to learn the hobby. Cluttering it up with stuff that is at best unlikely to teach us anything (generally speaking) or result in a new method is kind of a waste really. It seeds bad ideas into the heads of new people.
I love out there shit. I made the novelty thread, developed a few wacko ideas and even did stuff that was gonna fail all day long. But there is a difference between doing and talking about doing. This threads premise would still be facepalm if the OP had some dead trich eaten by cube mycelium on a plate, expanded then spawned side by side with controls and introduced contams. But at least that despite its many flaws would have the virtue of having results to point to. Even if everyone calls the ending, good science is repeatable.
That is my advice to people wanting to discuss shit like this in cult. Make a grow of it and at least we have pictures. It becomes worth something.
lol spot on, you are so right about how many "experimental" threads in advanced that never turn into anything useful in that sense, hell i cant think of one that has
and i totally understand your sentiments about success needing to be in mush cult, since lots new growers look to it like a bible, and a topic like this could easily distract a new grower from "follow the tek to the letter" and have them wasting time trying to "train cube myc to eat contams" instead
but i totally understand why someone would post it here rather than in the advanced section, since way more people contribute, and pasty is more likely to contribute more killer info

solid advice all the way around, especially regarding these kinds of threads in mush cult. i guess without actual experiments/grows/pics, anyone making this kind of post should be prepared for the way people tend to respond to them (and probably even if they do have them).
but personally, i love anything that gets me thinking, and one of my favorite things about the shroomery is the discussion that takes place when people bounce ideas and feedback off of one another, and discuss valuable ideas, connect dots, and put things in context. there is nothing like it, its a beautiful thing
i spend several hours a day reading in academic databases, kinda obsessively, and topics like this and inocuole's topic on Anastomosis are solid gold, because they give me new things to research, and often leads me to amazing papers on exactly the topics i want to learn about.
a good professor is able to see value and connect the dots in all kinds of places, even a students stupid questions. thats kinda how pasty strikes me, reminds me of some of the good professors i have had who always took the time to help people broaden their understanding and fill the gaps, without ridiculing people for the sake of their ego, like a shitty TA. mush love buddy
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Terpfreak said: I'm so glad this was in general cultivation, all of the trusted cultivators contributing information that I otherwise wouldn't have learned until I'd experimented more. Also had this been in advanced cultivation I probably wouldn't have noticed it because I had no idea what it means. Being in this side of the forum, it stood out in a sea of "how does my Monotub look". So thanks!
exactly how i felt when i found this post! 
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Inocuole said:

Just desensitized by lack of results is all. I'd love to change my paradigm, believe me.
if the goal was to get people talking about something interesting, and learn valuable information from the exchange of ideas that leads to new avenues of learning, i would say results=achieved.
OP wasnt trying to prove anything, or trying to teach people how to get clean cultures more easily, just bringing up some fascinating talking points
bringing up talking points certainly doesnt make someone an "underdog" , and being rude to them or missing the point entirely certainly doesnt make someone a "big dog". many people see right through that kind of bs. this kind of thinking is the paradigm that needs to be changed.
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rbalzer said: "bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered"
This is more what I'm leaning towards now. Countless species/varieties of bacteria, there's got to be an interesting symbiont out there.
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Pastywhyte said: Okay so then let's follow that train of thought. Given that there are billions of undiscovered, undescribed and untested species, it's not entirely impossible that some insane magic metabolite producing species exists. One that will beat the hell outta trich, aspergillus or bacillus, all the while leaving the cubes unaffected. When someone discovers it, figures out how to produce it while making it cheap and easy to aquire, someone send me a 
Until that day I will content myself with a 97% success rate and 150% BE first flushes.
exactly this was one of the many points i brought up to try to bring this back to the realm of interesting information
its fascinating to think about how much the presence of dead microbes, their metabolites, and their constituents already influence our projects, since the microbiological diversity could vary greatly between substrates (hpoo, straw, CVG, etc) or even between individual samples of the same type of substrate.
btw, do you have any notes on which microorganisms you have experience with that have been particularly aggressive, especially if it seems to inhibit the growth of other microorganisms? of course as you pointed out, most fungal species lower the PH of the medium, but have you noticed any other interesting characteristics? im particularly interested in learning more about the different types of antibiotics and antifungal compounds produced by microorganisms.
there is a TON of academic research being done on these topics right now, so there is a WEALTH of amazing info available in academic journals (most easily accessed through databases; you can usually access them through your university or public library, or if you work in healthcare through your employee account), if you know where to look and what to look for (thats the hard part)
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Pastywhyte said: Whatever. Seems that no matter what I say I'm just coming across as a hater. I'm gonna go make a new thread with teks, procedures, pictures and results. Also hookers n blackjack.
lol you definitely dont come off as a hater, more like the patient professor who makes the class interesting while trying to keep people from getting distracted in a way that might inhibit their chances of success or waste their time. your sincerity and concern for the understanding of both people who post and the vastly greater number of people who just read definitely comes through 
i think OP has gotten frustrated by how hard it is to get people to discuss the fascinating talking points, and how fast people are to take things out of context for the sake of mounting a criticism. or focus on a misguided question someone brought to the discussion (like myc eating trich, or mushrooms having a CNS) in an attempt to ridicule entire fields of research
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sandy_vag said: This is foolish in my opinion. Someone that can't keep a grow clean is going to do some untold extra steps right? Just stop fucking off and do it right. If you can't do that...what? Call me intellectually lazy all day this is pointless.
this was not presented as a way for people who cant keep a grow clean to get a clean culture more easily, that is totally out of context, though it has made up the majority of the discussion in this thread. so of course it is pointless in the context you described, but thats not what we are talking about.
of course this isnt going to help anyone get a clean culture more easily, and if they struggle with that then they have no practical application for this at all. but it certainly makes for good talking points (unless its twisted completely out of context)
this topic was not meant to be an experiment, a tek, a theory, a challenge, a way to do things better, or anything else all these criticisms assume. I think OP just overestimated people's ability to connect the dots and have a meaningful and interesting discussion without having their whole thought process derailed by a dumb question.
to reiterate, and try to bring the thread back to the realm of interesting discussion, some of the talking points ive raised:
Quote:
remember, it is often the metabolites, excretions, etc which give a microorganism its anti-bacterial or anti-fungal properties. for instance, penicillin mold produces a compound with strong antibiotic effects vs bacteria. when this was first discovered though, it was not feasible to produce enough to use, because of how little antibiotic was produced. The gov sent out PSAs to ask people to send in their moldy fruit, and eventually a little old lady sent in a moldy grapefruit that had a strain present which produced thousands of times the normal levels of the antibiotic
for this reason, it is an interesting thought to wonder if some of the antifungal/antibacterial metabolites/excretions produced by certain contaminants might be present after sterilizing the contaminated plate. If so, the sterile plate could retain some of the resistance to bacteria/fungi by virtue of the presence of these compounds after sterilization
a good question to ask is whether any of the common contams produce endospores or any other means of surviving the sterilization cycle?
another aspect to consider is that microorganisms routinely change simple building blocks into complex organic compounds. some of the constituents of contams might be more available to myc after the contam has broken it down or changed it into something else and then been killed off, leaving a very interestingly enhanced medium to experiment with.
there could very well be nutritional, antibacterial, antifungal, resistance and who knows what other kinds of possible benefits to this if it were applied in the right way, finding a "contam" that produced something useful and/or broke substrate down into something useful/helpful and then killing it off.
of course this is a double edged sword: many "contams" will just eat up the same nutrient the myc wants, and leave little to nothing useful for the myc. some probably even have metabolites/excretions/components which inhibit the growth of cube myc (like a broad antifungal).
lets try to actually expand on the context of the talking points presented, rather than doing the ego circle jerk that has become the norm around here since RR (god bless him, damn i miss him) has been gone
excellent point you make about the fish out of water. that understanding should really inform all of our endeavors with mushroom culture in artificial environments. As complicated as things can be when dealing with a single microorganism (that becomes macro) , we should definitely think twice before adding any much more aggressive, even predatory, microorganisms into the mix
the metabolites are absolutely fascinating, both cubensis metabolites and contam (or other microorganisms) metabolites probably have some interesting compounds in them, and i bet new ones are being discovered all the time
also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc
bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered
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sandy_vag said: Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
excellent point. though im surprised this hadnt registered with more people, this is exactly what led me to wonder about this concept.
it is a given that any spawn or substrate (including cvg) is going to have lots of other microorganisms present, and that that is the whole point of sterilizing/pasteurizing. which means that our substrates and spawn are already enhanced in this way, if only slightly. what is interesting is wondering how much effect this has over what we are culturing
there are several components to consider when determining what might be left over, including but not limited to:
-the species of microorganism in question -metabolites/excretions -components (what the organism is actually made of; cell walls etc) -how the microorganism breaks down the medium, and what it breaks it down into -which of these compounds survives sterilization
also it is important to remember that when we are talking about our spawn/substrate, this occurs on a spectrum, in various amounts, depending on what organisms are present, the substrate, and the factors above. and it could happen a little bit or a lot. so it definitely doesnt "break the post", just reminds people of something they had either forgotten or were taking for granted.
if anything this underscores why there is so much value to this line of thinking
if something hundreds of brilliant people devote their lives to studying seems "stupid" to you, maybe you are asking the wrong question, or misunderstanding what they are trying to do (or why)
Edited by c10h12n2o (09/03/16 02:01 PM)
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amidogen
see you on the other side

Registered: 05/07/16
Posts: 1,782
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Terpfreak]
#23608144 - 09/03/16 02:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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.
-------------------- The biggest trip of my life was realizing all of the events and actions described in posts made by this account were never real and had never actually happened, but were instead the delusional ramblings of a severely mentally ill human being. I just had to move on for my own good. I love you all.
Edited by amidogen (04/19/18 09:33 AM)
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23608166 - 09/03/16 02:14 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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So.. Pasty, I threw up an anastomosis thread in Advanced a week or so ago that's barely getting any attention. Could suuure use some input from Mr. Montana.
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: amidogen]
#23608176 - 09/03/16 02:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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a wall of text is one without page breaks, that post was sufficiently broken up to be easily read for sure
some people read/think faster than others, take your time with it if you care, if not 
people like me enjoy reading. i spend several hours a day reading in academic databases about various topics im fascinated by. hell the internet and academic databases have changed the world, made it easier for people to access cutting edge studies than at any other point in history. some will take advantage of it, some will not
the papers in academic databases are definitely dense as agarikon: they are not easy reading. i often find myself rereading the same paragraph a dozen times to make sure i understand it, and have to constantly look up terms, check footnotes, and read references just to be able to know what they are talking about
thats why its frustrating to hear people make such broad, uninformed assumptions and value judgments about entire avenues of thinking and research, when they dont have the paitience to read the posts, much less the body of academic literature regarding the concepts being discussed
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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