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weetsie
unlicensed tub surgeon



Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 572
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23555706 - 08/19/16 01:09 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
Pseudomonias (thrives in high CO2/wet conditions, eats cubes)
Regretted googling that one while eating my breakfast, eats babies too apparently.
-------------------- Active grow logs: Oysters on Straw Pellets Trade list
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SoulButter
Joint Chief of Soul


Registered: 06/23/15
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: weetsie]
#23561336 - 08/20/16 08:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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What about identifying the metabolites the cubes release in response to contamination, and figure out a way to synthesize/extract that metabolite. That way you can just spray your tub with defense chemicals when you see some trich or aspergillus. It probably wouldn't work that well, but it's more feasible than modifying the cubes themselves. I wonder if you could even target specific species of bacteria or fungi that eat only Trichoderma and not cubes. Unlikely but yeah.
The real possibility here is to breed cubensis toward resistance to a fungicide. That way if it became resistant enough, you could apply some dilution of fungicide to a contaminated mycelium. Idk how long it would take but it would probably actually work.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: SoulButter] 1
#23561349 - 08/20/16 08:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
SoulButter said: What about identifying the metabolites the cubes release in response to contamination, and figure out a way to synthesize/extract that metabolite. That way you can just spray your tub with defense chemicals when you see some trich or aspergillus. It probably wouldn't work that well, but it's more feasible than modifying the cubes themselves.
Actually collecting metabolites is recommended for use on plants. The issue with using it in mushroom substrate is that it can drop pH which will allow certain molds to just set up shop. Trich won't be phased by metabolites but really likes an acidic substrate.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23590741 - 08/29/16 04:47 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hate to revive this thread but I came across some interesting relevant articles today.
This is the main one.
This other one is pretty much about the same thing.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23590843 - 08/29/16 05:15 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Cool stuff but still has little relevance to our hobby.
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#23602065 - 09/01/16 06:02 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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wow i cant believe i missed this thread, just finished reading it, so glad i did!
OP, first off, thanks for sharing your thoughts on such an interesting topic. you brought up several great points which should have made for excellent conversation
I very much appreciate the thread, and some of the discussion that eventually took place (like pasty detailing common contams and discussing their viability as a target) ended up being golden, very interesting and very helpful for anyone wondering about similar stuff
It is very annoying the way people are so quick to take things totally out of context, whether it is because of poor reading comprehension skills, not having the patience to actually read, or just the ego boost some people derive from telling other people their ideas are shit.
that doesnt jive with me. if you have to take something out of context to criticize someones ideas, especially when the ideas are meant to be talking points and generate meaningful discussion, its downright annoying and lots of people will see straight through it. unfortunately, newbies and those trying to learn can easily be derailed by these out-of-context criticisms, since it often turns the discussion away from expounding upon the valuable ideas presented, and changes the direction of the rest of the thread as people begin to react to the out of context criticism rather than the talking points presented
people are way too quick to take things out of context so that they can act like someone is stupid. rather than broadening the context people are too quick to limit the discussion to some nonsense that completely misses the value of the talking points. come on people, we can do better than that
In this case: The concept of allowing things to contam, then sterilizing them, and then testing various aspects of the mycs growth and response to contams is a fascinating idea, for lots of reasons
like mentioned with smallpox verriolization (sp?) , that is an interesting thought
someone asked about trying to "train the myc to eat contams", which is obviously misguided, for all the reasons yall mentioned and more. but that is not what OP was talking about, just a thought someone else mentioned
what OP brought up was letting a plate contam, then sterilizing it, and testing.
remember, it is often the metabolites, excretions, etc which give a microorganism its anti-bacterial or anti-fungal properties. for instance, penicillin mold produces a compound with strong antibiotic effects vs bacteria. when this was first discovered though, it was not feasible to produce enough to use, because of how little antibiotic was produced. The gov sent out PSAs to ask people to send in their moldy fruit, and eventually a little old lady sent in a moldy grapefruit that had a strain present which produced thousands of times the normal levels of the antibiotic
for this reason, it is an interesting thought to wonder if some of the antifungal/antibacterial metabolites/excretions produced by certain contaminants might be present after sterilizing the contaminated plate. If so, the sterile plate could retain some of the resistance to bacteria/fungi by virtue of the presence of these compounds after sterilization
a good question to ask is whether any of the common contams produce endospores or any other means of surviving the sterilization cycle?
another aspect to consider is that microorganisms routinely change simple building blocks into complex organic compounds. some of the constituents of contams might be more available to myc after the contam has broken it down or changed it into something else and then been killed off, leaving a very interestingly enhanced medium to experiment with.
there could very well be nutritional, antibacterial, antifungal, resistance and who knows what other kinds of possible benefits to this if it were applied in the right way, finding a "contam" that produced something useful and/or broke substrate down into something useful/helpful and then killing it off.
of course this is a double edged sword: many "contams" will just eat up the same nutrient the myc wants, and leave little to nothing useful for the myc. some probably even have metabolites/excretions/components which inhibit the growth of cube myc (like a broad antifungal).
lets try to actually expand on the context of the talking points presented, rather than doing the ego circle jerk that has become the norm around here since RR (god bless him, damn i miss him) has been gone
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23602433 - 09/01/16 07:34 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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It was already explained in really good context why this wasn't something that could work very well, and even if it did, it would require such a tremendous effort that it'd hardly be worth it for any one person. But if you're so enamored with the idea that you'd prefer to keep up discussion of it, likely among the same minds that can't understand why it's a near-fruitless effort, then THAT circle jerk could go on for quite some time as well.
I'll take the circle jerk that saves people time over the one that thinks mycelium has a CNS. 
I get it, everybody LOVES to step in and defend the underdog with the unique idea, and also to paint the resulting debate as "discouraging experimentation" but seriously... until someone gets it working and gets back to us, dragons and unicorns are less fantastical than this idea.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23602477 - 09/01/16 07:45 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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My use of the word vaccinate has confused the shit out of the y'all. Pretend I called the thread "lets see if any beneficial metabolites are produced when mycelium encounters sterilized contaminates/metabolites produced by contaminates."
The hypothesis I never proposed but that you have decided to pretend I proposed would never work, you are infinitely fucking correct there. No doubt about that.
Edited by Psilosopherr (09/01/16 07:48 PM)
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23602555 - 09/01/16 08:11 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Metabolites are interesting. One thing they do that's really cool is drop the pH of the media being colonized. That works to the organisims advantage in nature. Indoors however it simply just gives the edge to mold.
We muse remember that the species we are growing has been removed from its niche. It's literally a fish out of water. Most of our strategy needs to consider that aspect. If you keep a fish in a tank you want to be sure you don't introduce sharks to that closed system if you want the fish to do well.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23602584 - 09/01/16 08:19 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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"One thing they do that's really cool is drop the pH of the media being colonized. That works to the organisims advantage in nature. Indoors however it simply just gives the edge to mold."
Whats the difference here you think? That in nature it gets flushed into the surrounding soil by water and therefore the ph never gets so low that molds take over?
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 1
#23602628 - 09/01/16 08:29 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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In nature there is far more fresh air. Indoors we deal with elevated CO2 which gives molds a massive advantage. Therefore we need to not give them any other advantages if we can help it.
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sandy_vag
Keep Dreaming



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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 4
#23602798 - 09/01/16 09:16 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: sandy_vag]
#23602839 - 09/01/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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shit you're right. at least when we're using composted horse manure, maybe not for cvg so much.
guy with 60 posts breaks the post in one fell swoop. awesome.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: sandy_vag]
#23602930 - 09/01/16 09:51 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sandy_vag said: Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
So obvious yet was exactly what needed to be said. Nice. Rated 5+
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23602941 - 09/01/16 09:54 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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... I'll be damned.
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole]
#23603518 - 09/02/16 01:48 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Voodoo
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Inocuole] 1
#23604217 - 09/02/16 10:26 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Inocuole said: It was already explained in really good context why this wasn't something that could work very well, and even if it did, it would require such a tremendous effort that it'd hardly be worth it for any one person. But if you're so enamored with the idea that you'd prefer to keep up discussion of it, likely among the same minds that can't understand why it's a near-fruitless effort, then THAT circle jerk could go on for quite some time as well.
I'll take the circle jerk that saves people time over the one that thinks mycelium has a CNS. 
I get it, everybody LOVES to step in and defend the underdog with the unique idea, and also to paint the resulting debate as "discouraging experimentation" but seriously... until someone gets it working and gets back to us, dragons and unicorns are less fantastical than this idea.
did you even read my post? maybe re-read it, slowly :/
some of us are well beyond thinking myc has a CNS and i think you know that, just more taking things out of context for the ego circle jerk and ignoring or failing to register the valuable talking points presented (in my post for example)
im not interested in any kind of circle jerk (isnt that why god made vagina, etc?), and i cant be the only one who sees right through this kind of nonsense
what i, and many others here who probably read a lot more than they post, am interested in is correct ideas, talking points that broaden my understanding, and learning in general
obviously some people are going to chime in who dont have a basic grasp of microbiology or even basic biology, and some people will be kind enough to help them understand how their thinking is misguided and put it into context for them. Others will use the misguided tidbit as an excuse to write off entire concepts, entire ways of thinking. that my friend, is just intellectual laziness, and it is contagious. and it certainly doesnt suit you
you shouldnt have to take things sooooooo out of context if you have a truly valid criticism
and no im not "defending the underdog with the unique idea", i am scolding you for thinking in those terms, being so quick to look for "unicorns and dragons" when there is an interesting and valid discussion to be had. can you not see the forest for the trees? or is it just too gratifying to the ego to resist taking something out of context and "putting an underdog in their place"?
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Metabolites are interesting. One thing they do that's really cool is drop the pH of the media being colonized. That works to the organisims advantage in nature. Indoors however it simply just gives the edge to mold.
We muse remember that the species we are growing has been removed from its niche. It's literally a fish out of water. Most of our strategy needs to consider that aspect. If you keep a fish in a tank you want to be sure you don't introduce sharks to that closed system if you want the fish to do well.
pasty, as usual, i gotta commend you for always bringing useful, insightful discussion and great info to the conversation, you rock buddy 
excellent point you make about the fish out of water. that understanding should really inform all of our endeavors with mushroom culture in artificial environments. As complicated as things can be when dealing with a single microorganism (that becomes macro) , we should definitely think twice before adding any much more aggressive, even predatory, microorganisms into the mix
the metabolites are absolutely fascinating, both cubensis metabolites and contam (or other microorganisms) metabolites probably have some interesting compounds in them, and i bet new ones are being discovered all the time
also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc
bear in mind that microbiology is a diverse field, and there are microorganisms which produce excretions/metabolites and are made up of constituents which can have fundamentally different properties from trich and its metabolites. so the possibilities of enhancing mediums are pretty much endless, and there is almost certainly some amazing things here to be discovered
Quote:
sandy_vag said: Your spawn and substrates are already full of dead contams, what with the sterilizing and pasteurizing.
excellent point. though im surprised this hadnt registered with more people, this is exactly what led me to wonder about this concept.
it is a given that any spawn or substrate (including cvg) is going to have lots of other microorganisms present, and that that is the whole point of sterilizing/pasteurizing. which means that our substrates and spawn are already enhanced in this way, if only slightly. what is interesting is wondering how much effect this has over what we are culturing
there are several components to consider when determining what might be left over, including but not limited to:
-the species of microorganism in question -metabolites/excretions -components (what the organism is actually made of; cell walls etc) -how the microorganism breaks down the medium, and what it breaks it down into -which of these compounds survives sterilization
also it is important to remember that when we are talking about our spawn/substrate, this occurs on a spectrum, in various amounts, depending on what organisms are present, the substrate, and the factors above. and it could happen a little bit or a lot. so it definitely doesnt "break the post", just reminds people of something they had either forgotten or were taking for granted.
if anything this underscores why there is so much value to this line of thinking
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23604245 - 09/02/16 10:40 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
also i think it is important to clarify that we are mainly talking about the common contams we see in cubensis cultures which often lower the PH (a la trich) which makes the medium more habitable to molds like itself and less habitable to competitors like cubensis myc
To be honest I doubt you will find many if any fungal species whose metabolites do not lower the pH. It's how they break down the food. In general most fungi including cubes prefer an acidic pH. However cubes tolerate higher pH better than most molds so we use it to our advantage indoors.
I have observed IRL some experiments with chemical treatment of media, specifically benomyl. It had promise but in the end seemed like more work than simply ensuring proper procedure. That's really the issue with most of these out of the box ideas. Treatment of media is less effective and often a lot more expense and work for less return. A fully colonized vigorous colony is damn near bulletproof. That's where the energy is best directed.
I am afraid that inocules points are well founded if bluntly stated. As exciting as prospects like this thread seem to be, they simply are not (at this point) even feasable for large commercial producers let alone a simple hobbiest. We already know the pros and cons to most of this stuff. Until major technology breakthroughs happen, it's just pipe dreams.
I think why this stuff is so attractive to people is the perception that clean expansion is a hard thing to do. But those people who get it down realize that it's really pretty easy. You just need to understand where the vectors are. Once you do that it's really simple to maintain a super high success rate.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23604256 - 09/02/16 10:45 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I am afraid that inocules points
Shh, shh... don't be afraid, it's natural baby.
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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Pastywhyte] 1
#23604282 - 09/02/16 10:54 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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great info pasty
i was thinking more in line with bacteria/cyanobacteria than fungal for the high ph btw, mainly to underscore the diversity of these kingdoms
and again context is everything
of course if you are just trying to grow some cubes and that is the end of your goal, this stuff is absolutely irrelevant. like you said, which i completely agree with:
Quote:
Treatment of media is less effective and often a lot more expense and work for less return. A fully colonized vigorous colony is damn near bulletproof. That's where the energy is best directed. &
I think why this stuff is so attractive to people is the perception that clean expansion is a hard thing to do. But those people who get it down realize that it's really pretty easy. You just need to understand where the vectors are. Once you do that it's really simple to maintain a super high success rate.
you are spot on there, i think that is why most people are interested in ideas like this, because in some way or another, they are trying to make their cube growing project easier. and you are absolutely right to make sure to inform people loud and clear that this is absolutely not worth the time of anyone who thinks experimenting with something like this is going to make it any easier for them to grow cubes, get a clean culture, or w/e
but what bugs me is when something has to be taken completely out of context to be ridiculed, for the sake of the ego circle jerk, all the while ignoring all the valid talking points and focusing on the misguided suggestions that pop up from time to time, that is just intellectual laziness
obviously context is everything here: something like this is not going to make it any easier to grow or get clean cultures. but for someone like myself who spends several hours a day reading in academic databases, who is totally fascinated by the amazing stuff being published literally every single day, discussions about this kind of stuff are one of my favorite things about the shroomery, especially picking the brains of those who can offer insight beyond "this is a waste of time" because they assume your interest is limited to trying to grow cubes more easily
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
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