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c10h12n2o
serial dilutor



Registered: 01/21/15
Posts: 3,200
Loc: the abyss
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23612726 - 09/04/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
But if basically the only thing that would be able to kill the cubes were bugs animals and humans wouldn't it just run rampid through the environment?
no no no, the natural ecosystem is a lot more complicated than that. hell, even the artificial ecosystems we create are a lot more complicated than that.
in nature, things arent as black and white as some of our analogies paint it. Ecosystems are more complicated than rock paper scissors. I dont think there is an organism on earth that can only be killed in 3 or 4 ways, or that requires a certain type of other organism to kill it.
nature is an amazing patchwork of species, interconnected by complex relationships. Trying to make a cubensis culture which cant be killed by contams, or whatever it is we are talking about in this particular example, is very misguided for lots of reasons
for instance, why dont the military make a soldier that can only be killed by aliens? or why doesnt monsanto make a variety of wheat that waters itself? these questions are misguided because they misunderstand the nature of the threats posed, and they misunderstand the lifecycles involved, the resources present, and the ways in which microorganisms interact with one another
the interaction between compounds like antibiotics and organisms like bacteria occurs on a continuum, where one amount of antibiotic might be enough to kill off a colony, where another amount might be too little to even affect the colony. complicating matters even more, a colony subjected to amounts small enough not to inhibit its lifecycle may very well acquire some resistance after a few generations, meaning it would require even more to kill them off.
nature isnt as simple as sports, where one team looses and one wins. things cohabitate and compete for the same resources. one of the main reasons trich is such a problem is because it is so aggressive in colonizing the substrate, and in a controlled environment it can (usually) outpace what we are culturing. this is not because trich beats cube like rock beats scissors, it is a matter of competing for the same resources, and competing to become well-established in the substrate
for example: just because penicillin is present doesnt mean that all organisms which CAN be killed by the antibiotic WILL be killed by the amount of antibiotic present.
what is interesting and viable, is trying to identify the other ways in which competing microorganisms edge eachother out, including metabolites/antibiotics/antifungals, etc., and trying to understand what it is about the cubensis metabolism that makes it vulnerable to the vectors employed by competing species. equally interesting is trying to learn about the various ways in which the lifecycle and metabolism of other microorganisms allows them to outcompete (or be outcompeted by) cubensis
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And mushrooms may not have immune systems I don't know what they have but they do excrete metabolites so I meant as far as making their metabolites stronger ... because everybody everyday has myc on agar that gets hit with trich or something else that's nasty that they save with some technique so if infecting it with those things things would make myc stronger or resistant wouldn't that have already happened?
maybe not an immune system per se , but fungi certainly have something analogous to a system of immune resoponses. when you say "make the metabolites stronger", what exactly do we mean by that? i would encourage you not to think in terms of the "strength" of a compound for this application, but rather think in terms of effectiveness for a particular application at a particular concentration.
remember, as pasty pointed out, that antibiotics are not magic. they certainly arent a magic bullet that makes cube culture infinitely easier (which seems to be what some people are looking for in this line of research; they wont find it). if that were the case, gentamicin would be as ubiquitous in our hobby as coir. Antibiotics can cause a lot of problems, and supplementing our projects with them usually causes more harm than goood, except in the right applications
also
the first step towards something useful in that vein of thought would be to identify which competitors have interesting qualities and determine the ways in which compounds present in cube metabolites actually function as an antibiotic. Also, take into consideration the various environmental/physical ways which these metabolites might influence their competitors (like lowering PH; that isnt an antibiotic but definitely helps mold become established).
my research on fungal metabolites suggests that there can be HUGE variation in the metabolites produced between samples of the same species. Several studies have delved into the ways competing microorganisms influence which compounds are produced, and many others confirm that the substrate make-up also bears some influence over which compounds are produced.
Since the presence of competing organisms and environmental factors can have such a strong bearing on the compounds produced, any discussion of cubensis metabolites should bear these factors in mind, noting that the compounds present in one sample of cubensis metabolites may vary greatly from another
and bear in mind that cubensis already does quite well when competing with most microorganisms in nature, as opposed to the "fish out of water" environment of our projects. There are lots of reasons for this, but to think its because one microorganism is stronger than the other is a gross oversimplification. the mechanisms involved in the balance we see in nature are poorly understood as a whole, but one thing we know for sure is that it is very complex. it can be quite a challenge measuring these aspects, which is why it is so nice to read through academic studies and learn how they measure and control for some of these aspects
In nature, the same qualities that allow contams like trich to thrive in our artificial ecosystems have an entirely different effect. If not, and trich was so "strong" ,wouldnt trichoderma be covering every viable surface on the planet? of course not. because in nature there is immense microbial diversity, and that balance allows species to thrive within their niche, in spite of (or even because of) all the competing, cohabiting microorganisms
so it very much depends on what you are trying to accomplish.
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  C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide "Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing." "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ― Friedrich Nietzsche
Edited by c10h12n2o (09/04/16 09:05 PM)
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie


Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: c10h12n2o]
#23612771 - 09/04/16 09:10 PM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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You're quite ejamacated friend in reality I'm just trying to accomplish great grows and think just trying to make sure everything is going right is hard enough ... too be honest if it was made so easy as to being able to just noc up jars with spore syringes no problem I don't think it would be as fun or as interesting as it is ... I do like learning so trying to better understand the job at hand I'm all for it being it something plausible or not like what has been said many times in here I think there is alot of interesting shit on this thread and like to see people of a higher level then myself argue and make points to their thoughts of each process
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Boogieman47]
#23614289 - 09/05/16 10:12 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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Right, antibiotics aren't the only kind of metabolite.
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Psilosopherr
A psilly goose



Registered: 02/15/12
Posts: 12,278
Last seen: 1 month, 10 days
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23614296 - 09/05/16 10:15 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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plus it seems odd that antibiotics in nature would just breed stronger contams. what kind of survival mechanism is that?
Is it not a faction in the microbial arms race, developing right along with the others? idk
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spacechildo
proletarians rise up


Registered: 01/24/13
Posts: 19,243
Loc: Babylon
Last seen: 6 years, 4 months
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr] 2
#23614305 - 09/05/16 10:19 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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rbalzer said: plus it seems odd that antibiotics in nature would just breed stronger contams. what kind of survival mechanism is that?
google antibiotics + india. that's exactly what's happening.
You do know that metabolites aren't antibiotics tho right? but that antibiotics can be derived from said metabolites?
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Mad Season
hookers and blackjack



Registered: 09/16/12
Posts: 12,666
Loc: Canada
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: Psilosopherr]
#23614336 - 09/05/16 10:29 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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I still have no idea what we want out of this thread. Like some super metabolites to give cubes to defeat contams? Or a substrate that can only be grown on by cubes and nothing else?
Also yeah trich is in every single inch of soil on this planet. Trich turns its substrate black outside. Throw away a trichy tub, you'll see what I mean. Just because the entire ground isn't green, doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means it's not sporulating everywhere.
Sure there are other organisms that grow up and produce when in the presence of other parasitic competitors, just like cubes. But once they've expended what they can, the competitors will be the last decomposers until it's turned to soil. In those cases the metabolites are just going to slow the competitors down, not kill them. The best way to keep trich and what not out, is to work on being clean. Outdoors, yes it can grow and fruit outside even with trich present, it can do it for years even, but there's a reason why every inch of soil has trich in it.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Vaccinating clean mushroom cultures with dead/attenuated contaminants [Re: spacechildo] 1
#23614425 - 09/05/16 11:06 AM (7 years, 4 months ago) |
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spacechildo said:
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rbalzer said: plus it seems odd that antibiotics in nature would just breed stronger contams. what kind of survival mechanism is that?
google antibiotics + india. that's exactly what's happening.
You do know that metabolites aren't antibiotics tho right? but that antibiotics can be derived from said metabolites?
Fuel ethanol uses corn as you might know. Well before fermentation for ethanol the mash is usually boiled so that its free from contamination that would compete with yeast. Well that's too much energy and work. So fuel ethanol has a waiver from the Feds to use huge amounts of antibiotics in their fermentation so that yield doesn't suffer from acid forming bacteria getting a foothold. Then it's dumped out in your rivers and fields.
So E85% is the exact opposite of friendlier for the world
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