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OfflineVriska Serket
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12 Step Programs
    #23541342 - 08/14/16 04:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I just got done re-reading the orange papers for the first time in quite awhile and boy howdy am I upset.

Isn't it super fucked up how the government or a hospital can essentially force you to join a religious cult founded by a belladonna eating sexual predator conman?

Like look I get that AA works for some people but its truly an insidious organization if you look under the surface and do some reading. (the orange papers are a good place to start. Biased but very very well researched with a massive bibliography)

I just dont think that forcing this kind of lifestyle on people whether it be through the criminal justice system or rehab should be allowed, especially when alternatives like SMART and SOS exist.


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the queen of shitposting


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OfflineSaunterer
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Vriska Serket] * 1
    #23541429 - 08/14/16 04:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Don't you talk about bill and Bob like that. The criminal justice system doesn't force it on people either. They enforce their stupid in house drug and alcohol counselling programs. Been through all that. AA is barely advertised or promoted anywhere either actually considering how huge it is. One of the cooler organizations in the world IMO, almost entirely volunteer based and in over a 100 countries. Has helped millions, myself included. Saved countless lives.

Take your conspiracy theories and shove them...:cookiemonster:


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OfflineVriska Serket
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Saunterer]
    #23541440 - 08/14/16 04:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

http://aorange1.tripod.com/

read some of these, just pick a few, and notice the massive bibliography which contain sources. nothing I'm saying is a conspiracy theory. It might be an unpopular opinion, but its backed up by facts and testimonials.

EDIT

re-read your post, missed the part where you said you were an AA member. I'm sorry you've been brainwashed bud


--------------------
the queen of shitposting


Edited by Vriska Serket (08/14/16 04:42 PM)


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OfflineSaunterer
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Vriska Serket]
    #23541482 - 08/14/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Right because everything you read on some free tripod site is true.
Fact is, it works. I've seen the program work for a lot of hopeless alcoholics in the last 8 years I've been attending. Night and day in lots of cases. More effective than just about anything, as well.


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OfflineVriska Serket
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Saunterer]
    #23541495 - 08/14/16 04:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The site has an extensive bibliography with links to credible sources, including interviews, books, newspapers, personal accounts, and official AA literature.

I'm not debating you on whether or not it works (which I could, considering some studies show a staggeringly low success rate, in addition to studies citing that people who believe in the 12 step model of addiction are almost twice as likely to relapse as addicts who try to quit using other means), it certainly does work very well for some people.

I'm simply stating that it works because it indoctrinates its members into a religious cult that encourages groupthink and strips you of identity and discourages any level of critical thinking by repeated canned statements (stinkin' thinkin' comes to mind) and discourages people from ever leaving their organization by literally telling them that if they don't do AA then they will die.

That's not even the tip of the iceberg.


--------------------
the queen of shitposting


Edited by Vriska Serket (08/14/16 05:00 PM)


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OfflineBoomtastic410
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Registered: 08/02/16
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Vriska Serket]
    #23541626 - 08/14/16 05:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I am currently experiencing the life that comes with being a recovering addict. I was addicted to heroin for years and eventually shooting it. It got to be a living hell and I am very proud of myself for getting though the withdraws in treatment. It was my fourth time in treatment and im 29 years old.

That being said I can say from going through the program and going to meetings for years on and off it is cultISH. I do enjoy the "fellowship" aspect of it but there are other things I absolutely hate. They say that it is the only way to stay sober and have a worthwhile life. To them if you were to get sober with the program most people are "dry drunks". There is a whole lot of judgement from most people in the program. It works if you work it is a catch phrase they use.

Well if that were true then why is the rates of relapse and death including suicide staggering. They tell you to buy two suits, one black and one blue. I forgot what the blue one is for but the black one is for funerals. I was once told by a sponsor that if I stay in the program for a long enough time it proves to them it works. If I relapse or die it is also good to prove and remind them that the disease is real. Seems kinda bleak to me coming from people trying to help each other live happy and long lives.

The last point I want to make is that the literature and the members will say that its not a religious program, it is spiritual. If that were true the word God with a capital G and Him with a capital H wouldn't be littered all throughout the 12 steps and the books. Also, the founders were christian and seems to be a funneling system to religion.

The most interesting thing is that one of the founders (Bill W) was known to give the members LSD to help them with their spiritual experiences. Eventually he was told he could not do that and the other higher ups decided not to allow it to be put in the information (big book).

Heres a quote from Bill and a link...

In 1957 Wilson wrote a letter to Heard saying: "I am certain that the LSD experiment has helped me very much. I find myself with a heightened colour perception and an appreciation of beauty almost destroyed by my years of depressions." Most AAs were strongly opposed to his experimenting with a mind-altering substance.-Bill W.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alcoholics-theory


The co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) believed LSD could be used to cure alcoholics and credited the drug with helping his own recovery from often debilitating depression, according to new research.

About 20 years after setting up the Ohio-based sobriety movement in 1935, Bill Wilson came to believe that LSD could help "cynical alcoholics" achieve a "spiritual awakening" and start on the path to recovery.

The discovery that Wilson considered using the drug as an aid to recovery for addicts was made by Don Lattin, author of a book to be published in October by the University of California Press, entitled Distilled Spirits.

Lattin found letters and documents revealing that Wilson at first struggled with the idea that one drug could be used to overcome addiction to another. LSD, which was first synthesised in 1938, is a non-addictive drug that alters thought processes and can inspire spiritual experiences. Wilson thought initially the substance could help others understand the alcohol-induced hallucinations experienced by addicts, and that it might terrify drinkers into changing their ways.

But after his first acid trip, at the Veterans Administration (VA) hospital in Los Angeles on 29 August 1956, Wilson began to believe it was insight, not terror, that could help alcoholics recover.


Edited by Boomtastic410 (08/14/16 05:54 PM)


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OfflineBoomtastic410
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Registered: 08/02/16
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Boomtastic410]
    #23541634 - 08/14/16 05:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Oh and also this is Terrence Mckenna talking about psychedelics and AA.


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OfflineVriska Serket
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Boomtastic410]
    #23541737 - 08/14/16 06:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

great fucking posts dude, I'm proud of you for getting clean and I'm glad to see you didn't let the program sink its claws into you.

Bill's original vision of god that convinced him to start AA was during a belladonna trip, speaking of his own drug use.


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the queen of shitposting


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Offlinestzacrack
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Vriska Serket]
    #23541759 - 08/14/16 06:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I agree with everything u said and these AA people are fucking mindless

I quit groin on my own and without any brainwash

At my 30 day my counsellor was head of psychology at a reputable university in my stage and she told me on average most heroin addicts grow out of addiction in 8 years and most stop without the help of AA or whatever else, its their own choice

Fuck judges and probation officers who try and push this shit

So much wrong with this shit and free thinking people like those on this site should be able to tell the difference


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OfflineVriska Serket
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: stzacrack]
    #23541763 - 08/14/16 06:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

right-o dude

actually a scientific study that was conducted show that 80% of morphine addicts quit on their own within 5 to 10 years of their start, and that people who believe AA's model of addiction are twice as likely to relapse


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OfflineBoomtastic410
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Vriska Serket]
    #23542454 - 08/14/16 10:47 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks Vriska, I appreciate that! Feels great to be free of the addiction of opiates. I still do have plans in the future for mushies, mdma, dmt, and rare weed seshs. I cannot go through with any of that until the year is up and I complete the drug diversion program I am in. Though I am grateful for the chance to go to treatment instead of probation with piss testing which I would have failed and ended up doing 3 to 5 in county.... I still disagree with the force of the court has to send people such as myself to a religious program I have thrived and concurred my issue. The addiction itself spun out of control and I quickly became a slave to opiates/benzos/alcohol. Horrible way of life always looking for the next fix but it is true that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger....most of the time.

Anyways regarding the post that people are twice as likely to relapse in the program seems to be true looking around at the people I know and became close with. From what I have read it takes the average addict 7 to 8 times in treatment to stay clean.

Also I am not saying that it is definitely a conspiracy so dont grab the tinfoil hat for me just yet. BUT..... Once again from my experience I am very aware and from what I can tell it is usually a cycle for more than most. It normally goes like this

Trauma/ PTSD something horrible usually within the first 20 years of someones life.

Doctor tells patient they have anxiety, depression, ADHD, bi-polar
These are very real issues obviously that people have but the first three especially misdiagnosed and then OVER medicated normally with strong prescription narcotics.

Next is either the drug is no longer prescribed to patient, stopped taking meds, and most common the meds got too expensive and turn to street drugs/ alcohol. (Heroin, coke, meth, now spice even)

Finally "rock bottom" which is different for everyone because of consequences. Losing a job, losing a spouse to divorce, health issues...

Seek treatment/ Family friends intervention

Detox, 30 60 or 90 days in treatment/ Sober living 30 days to 2 years

This is where it gets interesting for me because this is the point where we are told to start working a program. Get a sponsor and start the 90 and 90 (90 meetings in 90 days). Very difficult to endure everyday in fresh recovery listening to people talk about the very problem that you are trying to work your way away from. I do understand that it is important to remember how bad it got. But I do feel that this is the reason why most people relapse. The program is not about self empowerment but fear and guilt. The fourth step seems to be constructive though. Taking inventory on our resentments and what part we had in them from past relationships. Page 86 in the book highlights making gratitude lists each night. But reminding us everyday of how we are without defense against the first drink or drug does not seem helpful at all. That thought hanging over your head every minute of each day. The worst of it is that they give you a excuse by saying it is a disease. It works for some but definitely not all. According to the members everyone should be in the program alcoholic addict or not. It is a cookie cutter approach to a very diverse problem with a diverse group of people ranging in all races, ages, sexual preferences, and beliefs. Of coarse behind most things this large are dollar signs. We all know the war on drugs is a failure and a joke. The doctors write the scripts filling their pockets along with making big pharma huge amounts of money. It has a fishy smell to me to keep the masses weak confused and incarcerated. People need the drugs they are prescribed and PHYSICALLY addicted to so they buy the illegal ones of the street. If you have ever had the pleasure of seeing a bill from a rehab it is enough to make you shit your pants, even sometimes with insurance coverage. Yes there are state funded programs but most are worse then the average success rate of 7 to 8 percent....Horrible, so anyone with half a brain can see how this is a cycle or if you will a "scam" or dare I say a "conspiracy". I take full responsibility for my actions but I also recognize that the powers that be definitely do not have my best in mind. If all drugs were regulated, legal, and accessible we would not have all the death and problems that come with this "war". We can look at countries like Portugal and Sweden I believe that have lower addiction rates and crime rates from legalized drugs.

I do feel strongly about this subject because it had become such a huge part of my life. I know I may be a little paranoid but what do you expect from a addict hahaha.


Rant over....Anyways
There is scientific studies backing this theory some of it making a lot of sense to me seeming legit. The amount of dopamine and GABA (gamma-aminobutyric acid) in your brain are depleted and takes time for your brain to get back to normal making your decision making mid brain the problem. So this is true but it is not as if its black and white to where we have no choice when the drug or drink is put in front of us. All kind of confusing stuff although very interesting. Its a disease that effects our decision making and thoughts. I prefer the term mental abnormality but to each their own. In the end I know that I have escaped not only addiction of these very strong drugs but also the grips of incarceration and death. I view myself as a survivor and proudly accept that.

I know that some of this is basic stuff but just wanted to get my thoughts out "on paper" because it helps me immensely. Thank you to everyone who read my post and my apologies if I rambled at all. Hopefully all of the info is absolutely correct but there may be some small errors. In general I believe I have a good understanding of it.

P.S- Anyone reading this that is not sure about treatment, meetings or anything recovery related please don't hesitate to message me because it is very hard and I am here to help down this dark long road!:grin:


Edited by Boomtastic410 (08/14/16 10:58 PM)


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OfflineKaptKid
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Boomtastic410]
    #23542507 - 08/14/16 11:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

There is more than one way out.
Hope your bottom does not have to be as low as mine.
More power to you if your way helped.
As far as picking a program apart, I sure that can be done to anything.
So good luck to everyone.
Sounds like minds are made up.
I'll keep working my program.


--------------------
Child of the 60's, Tripping ever since.


:sun:


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OfflineConnoisseur

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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Vriska Serket]
    #23542531 - 08/14/16 11:27 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

12 step programs do save lives but forcing your views on anyone is never good


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OfflineAdolin
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Re: 12 Step Programs [Re: Connoisseur]
    #23542572 - 08/14/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I agree that its bullshit that courts can force people to go to AA meetings. those people tend to be the most disruptive (lots of scoffing, loud sighs, pffts, etc) and just make it worse for the people who actually want to be there.

I'm about 8 months sobor and havnt gone to a meeting in about a month, but i never would have gotten past the first couple months without going to meetings almost daily. i dont find much benefeit in going to AA regularly anymore though.

i have a weekly non-AA recovery group and thats good enough for me at this point. everyone has a good time and nobody is forced to be there


Edited by Adolin (08/14/16 11:44 PM)


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