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Patlal
You ask too many questions


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 11 hours, 24 minutes
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Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism 2
#23540530 - 08/14/16 11:19 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Alright. So we're fucking up the planet. We know that now. We're not about to stop either because we love money and the environment get's in the way of it. But of course, all good things must eventually come to an end. For the last decade and a half or so people have been increasingly worried about the long term effect of our consumption and many ideas have been thrown out there to reduce the pollution. Of course, like everything else, there's controversy, lies, zealots, ignorant, cynics and opponents to it.
An idea that have been tried is the carbon tax. The argument against it is more than obvious, another way to grab money from our collective wallets. Nobody likes that. Although true, some data have been coming out lately that offers encouraging results. First though, let's look at how carbon taxes work
- Tax fossil fuels in order to reduce demand. - Take the tax money and put in into a separate fund - Use that fund to give the public goodies such as income tax cuts or more public services.
British Columbia instated a carbon tax of 10$ per ton of carbon emission in 2008 and it is now 30$ per ton as of 2015. To relate to this number, it equals roughly $0.07 per liter of gas. Ever since the province create the carbon tax, emissions have been reduced by 16% while they increases by roughly 3% in the rest of Canada. So the proof of concept works. The tax definitely leads to lower emissions. But how has it affected the economy?
A hard question to answer because it's next to impossible to put a dollar value to it, but the statistics show that BC has had more growth than the rest of the country. So we can officially say that it doesn't have a severe economic impact. Compare that to the 16% decrease in fossil fuel consumption, I'd say it just might be worth it.
In Denmark, ecotaxes represent almost 8% of the state's tax revenues and 4% of the GDP. That's quite a lot of money that can be used to pay for services, the debt or other things. The quality of life and median income did not suffer as much as expected by the opponents nor has the wealth of the nation decreased.
As for the impact we have on the planet (destruction of forests, coastlines, mines, etc), Nicholas Stern (economist) calculated that in order to clean up our act, it would take roughly 1% of the world's GPD. He also predicted that doing nothing could end up reducing the worldwide wealth by 20%. Of course, Since I'm much more conservative than that. I'll adjust these numbers (without research) to 3% of the GDP (because it's always more expensive than we think) and go for 5% loss of wealth (Because IMO 20% seems like a dramatized number a hippie would throw in your face)... But in the end... Investing 3% of the GDP now to save 5% later? Seems worth it. If the guy is actually right by saying 1% and 20% then it's super worth it.
Everybody talks about the national debt as if it's the only debt that humanity has to pay in order to stay afloat. Economists are starting to talk about something else though; the natural debt. Unlike the national debt, which is just an accounting number on paper, the natural debt is the real debt we will have to pay from the environment degradation. Polluted lakes, contaminated soils, exhausted oceans, etc. Right now this debt is unaccounted for. It's not taken into consideration at all. It seems to be nobody's responsibility. Economists have found a way to make it matter and the province of Quebec has put it into action. What you do is you calculate the cost of decontaminating every site within the borders and adding that cost directly to the balance of the national debt. That way when the national debt is paid, the money doesn't just disappear from one side of the accounting column to the other. Parts of the money is spent to decontaminate sites in the real world. It's society's debt to ourselves.
TL, DR: Just go to another thread.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Patlal]
#23540538 - 08/14/16 11:23 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: TL, DR: Just go to another thread.
Yeah that all looks way too serious for the Pub. I come here for debauchery and sin, not serious shit.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
Last seen: 1 hour, 45 minutes
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
#23540598 - 08/14/16 11:47 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes on carbon tax.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Patlal]
#23540608 - 08/14/16 11:50 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Patlal said: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism
how about this
fuck you Al Gore, you're a racist that's trying to force poor black people back to living in the conditions of the slave era
Quote:
- Tax fossil fuels in order to reduce demand. - Take the tax money and put in into a separate fund - Use that fund to give the public goodies such as income tax cuts or more public services.
fuck you obama, we dont need you to once again increase fuel taxes to line your own pockets from your private little slush fund
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Prisoner#1]
#23540626 - 08/14/16 11:57 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Who spends more money explicitly influencing people like pris' opinion on climate change: Obama or big oil companies?
Is it a coincidence he dislikes Obama AND denies climate change? I'm sure thats far from the norm though.
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 11 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23540711 - 08/14/16 12:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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An enormous amount of money is wasted in publicity. But it' a necessary expense otherwise people would not change their habits at all.
There's a movement happening recently, people have been willingly consuming less. Some of course because of poverty but a lot is happening by choice. Car sales for example have been going down a lot. Public transport is on the rise and people have decide via Uber to put their car to good us. Pinterest and such have been contributing to a lot of creative recycling where you tke what you woulld normally throw away and e flower pot with it or other little things like that. It seems like a small thing to do but when added up, the sale of consumer items have been reduced and the output of waste has also been affected.
The Internet is turning society into non-consumption. Take Facebook: A website filled with everything but it creates 0 contents. Uber is the biggest taxi company in the world; it owns no taxi. Airbnb has surpassed Hilton hotels in term of space and location; it owns 0 apartments. iTunes is one of the biggest music store in the world; it sells no CDs. Reading tablets sell millions of books; it uses no paper.
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specialpeopleclub



Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Patlal]
#23540752 - 08/14/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ive heard globel cooling is worse and that the 'hocky stick' graph that is always refered to is based on data that may not be completely accurate
cook the world
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: The Ecstatic]
#23540775 - 08/14/16 12:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Who spends more money explicitly influencing people like pris' opinion on climate change: Obama or big oil companies?
Is it a coincidence he dislikes Obama AND denies climate change? I'm sure thats far from the norm though.
obama doesnt have to spend the money, he has the ear of the press
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis


Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Patlal]
#23540956 - 08/14/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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The real driver of apocalyptic climate change is methane , not carbon .
If there is a chance for survival it will be in radical Geoengineering of some kind.
Hopefully the singularity happens first and a super intelligent AI can solve the problem.
I just pray I get to live out my life before it all goes down, and I am not having kids.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Prisoner#1
Even Dumber ThanAdvertized!


Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 193,665
Loc: Pvt. Pubfag NutSuck
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Moonshoe]
#23540980 - 08/14/16 02:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: The real driver of apocalyptic climate change is methane , not carbon
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specialpeopleclub



Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 5,584
Loc: Mitten
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Moonshoe]
#23540985 - 08/14/16 02:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Moonshoe said: The real driver of apocalyptic climate change is methane , not carbon .
If there is a chance for survival it will be in radical Geoengineering of some kind.
Hopefully the singularity happens first and a super intelligent AI can solve the problem.
I just pray I get to live out my life before it all goes down, and I am not having kids.
we take ai as a givin. Im actually hoping technology in that direction finds its limit. Transhumanism is a disgusting twisted concept
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Patlal
You ask too many questions


Registered: 10/09/10
Posts: 44,797
Loc: Ottawa
Last seen: 11 hours, 24 minutes
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: specialpeopleclub]
#23541228 - 08/14/16 03:24 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
specialpeopleclub said:
Quote:
Moonshoe said: The real driver of apocalyptic climate change is methane , not carbon .
If there is a chance for survival it will be in radical Geoengineering of some kind.
Hopefully the singularity happens first and a super intelligent AI can solve the problem.
I just pray I get to live out my life before it all goes down, and I am not having kids.
we take ai as a givin. Im actually hoping technology in that direction finds its limit. Transhumanism is a disgusting twisted concept
If we put out there a sufficient amount of data trackers, I'm sure we could find a solution using a computer generated model. No need to become one with the machine. We're talking pollution here not ascension
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Khii Khwaay
black tooth grin

Registered: 04/16/12
Posts: 2,277
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Patlal]
#23541641 - 08/14/16 05:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fuck Wynne and Notley with a wire brush.
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Enlil
OTD God-King




Registered: 08/16/03
Posts: 65,512
Loc: Uncanny Valley
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Patlal]
#23541876 - 08/14/16 06:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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It doesn't matter what we do. Every drop of oil we can get out of the ground will be used, and most of it will be burned. That's inevitable no matter what else happens on this planet. Coal is another story. We may only burn coal at ever-increasing rate for the next 200 years or so. After that, we may taper off.
Either way, the planet will react as it does, and we'll adapt...or not.
-------------------- Censoring opposing views since 2014. Ask an Attorney Fuck the Amish
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire


Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,369
Loc: 'Merica
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Re: Let's talk about carbon tax and the economics of environmentalism [Re: Prisoner#1]
#23543440 - 08/15/16 10:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said: Who spends more money explicitly influencing people like pris' opinion on climate change: Obama or big oil companies?
Is it a coincidence he dislikes Obama AND denies climate change? I'm sure thats far from the norm though.
obama doesnt have to spend the money, he has the ear of the press
Doesnt hurt that the facts are on his side.
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