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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: bodhisatta]
#23538865 - 08/13/16 07:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Substrate is a lot different than stainless steel that's already cleaned. I'm not confused. It is sterilization at 170F for 10m. Substrate is a different animal. For the same reasons we can't sterilise whole grain on even 100C steam in less than 8 hours.
Coir just should be above 170F for at least 10m. You want to sterilize it. You're killing all vegetative bacteria and molds(spores and vegitative(that you may have introduced). Spores may survive. Sterilization is a wide range of things depending on process needs.
You can sterilise coir at 170F for 10m (core temperature has to hit that) because there's extremely little endogenous contamination.
Sterilization time has everything to do with CFU load prior to sterilization hence 170F for 10M would never achieve sterilization for horse or cow poo, and especially not for grain
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Kenetic
Nam Sayin



Registered: 08/24/14
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Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Fiscal]
#23538885 - 08/13/16 08:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fiscal said: Hello everybody! You see all these people that just pasteurize coir putting it in a bucket and adding boiling water, then when it cools down it's pasteurized. So how reliable is this method Vs. pressure cooking in jars (sterilize) or pasteurize it in jars with a meat thermometer keeping the right temperature for an hour? Does coco really have the beneficial bacteria that would get killed in the sterilization? Thank you and regards.
I personally think the bucket tek worked great when I had a small pressure cooker and couldn't practically use the jar method, but I would prefer the jar method now because I can fit all my sub in one pot. It's one less variable to consider.
I learned on here that coco has beneficial bacteria and sterilization is bad, killing this bacteria and allowing the strongest colonizer to take over, but I've also learned that bacteria of any kind doesn't thrive in dry conditions and either dies or creates endospores. Does the beneficial bacteria live or produce endospores in dry coir? I don't know.
With all of that said, the logic behind proper pasteurization makes sense. If you have the means to do it, then why leave open another variable?
-------------------- Todo Cambia    DMT said: Everyone know's me, they just don't know it yet
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Kenetic]
#23539001 - 08/13/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Coir performs better sterilised that's why. And there's absolutely no point in pasteurization of it since there is no beneficial thermophiles
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Kenetic]
#23539132 - 08/13/16 09:55 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
kenetic said:
Quote:
Fiscal said: Hello everybody! You see all these people that just pasteurize coir putting it in a bucket and adding boiling water, then when it cools down it's pasteurized. So how reliable is this method Vs. pressure cooking in jars (sterilize) or pasteurize it in jars with a meat thermometer keeping the right temperature for an hour? Does coco really have the beneficial bacteria that would get killed in the sterilization? Thank you and regards.
I personally think the bucket tek worked great when I had a small pressure cooker and couldn't practically use the jar method, but I would prefer the jar method now because I can fit all my sub in one pot. It's one less variable to consider.
I learned on here that coco has beneficial bacteria and sterilization is bad, killing this bacteria and allowing the strongest colonizer to take over, but I've also learned that bacteria of any kind doesn't thrive in dry conditions and either dies or creates endospores. Does the beneficial bacteria live or produce endospores in dry coir? I don't know.
With all of that said, the logic behind proper pasteurization makes sense. If you have the means to do it, then why leave open another variable?
This is where I am on this subject, variable, I originally moved to pasteurizing from the bucket when I was having a contam outbreak and couldnt place it anywhere else, I was a new grower though and now Im sure I had a pretty invisible bacteria, but I started pasteurizing and never looked back. I personally do it in large spawn/growbags, I do 3 at a time in my AA941, I just hydrate and mix the ingredients, load enough for a tub in each bag, seal them and pack them in the AA with spacers rings between them and fire it up. I like this because I buy bags in bulk for 49 cents a piece, and I get to reuse the bags over and over, also they store well, sealed I have used them months after pasteurizing.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: bodhisatta]
#23539293 - 08/13/16 11:09 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: Sterilization time has everything to do with CFU load prior to sterilization hence 170F for 10M would never achieve sterilization for horse or cow poo, and especially not for grain
Quote:
Trusted Cultivator said: Coir performs better sterilised that's why. And there's absolutely no point in pasteurization of it since there is no beneficial thermophiles
These simple yet crucial concepts never seem to catch on. But understanding them is the difference between having fun with this hobby and banging your head against a wall.
Everyone loves to blame the bucket. But it's all bout clean spawn.
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d0urd3n
Just call me "D"

Registered: 09/15/10
Posts: 5,237
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23539571 - 08/14/16 01:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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60k BBL per year bodh? That's a lot of beer.
Curious, do you use starsan for anything in this hobby?
That was some great info, anyways.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Everyone loves to blame the bucket. But it's all bout clean spawn.
Unless there are random organic materials in your coir though right?
Wasn't it you who had issues a year or two back bucket teking coir and getting trich?
I mean your point still stands, for the vast majority its spawn and they want to blame bucket tek.
Did you end up finding a different coir supplier to fix this? Or was this not you, I can't really remember.
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23539576 - 08/14/16 01:29 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I will admit you can spend better time doing something else than properly pasteurizing coco, however to insinuate someone is doing something wrong I have seen amazing grows from the big guys on here that did pasteurize their coco, and amazing grows from you guys that don't. Just as much as it shouldnt be a debate on here if the bucket tek works or not, it should't be debated if pasteurization works or not. It works every time, just like the bucket, how is that "banging your head against the wall"? And don't tell me time, cubensis are the only mushroom you are going to get away with this little of work, time, and effort.
And as far as the sterile coir goes, Pasty, you honestly believe that coir can be fully sterilized in 10 min at 170, that's not partially sterilized?
Edited by Rooster Cogburn (08/14/16 01:38 AM)
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Supalemonhaze
Spore syringe hater.



Registered: 10/02/15
Posts: 6,725
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23539618 - 08/14/16 01:49 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rooster Cogburn said:
And as far as the sterile coir goes, Pasty, you honestly believe that coir can be fully sterilized in 10 min at 170, that's not partially sterilized?
Yes. You can sterilize a glass of water purely by microwaving it for a few minutes or just plain old boiling.
As TC already said (even numerous times I think), it matters exclusively on what the item being sterilized has growing on it and it's nutrient content. Take poo for example, you can't pasteurize it with the bucket tek like you would with coir because it's loaded with bacteria just lying there dormant. Coir has very minimal, if any at all, bacteria and molds growing on it and it doesn't have much nutrients so they won't even like growing on it.
Same thing with grains, we normally PC them for 2hours at 15psi and even that is not truly sterilization since bacterial endospores do still survive.
Sterilization is relative to the item being sterilized. People are also correct about others blaming the bucket tek. The bucket tek is not even for pasteurization, it's just to make the nutrients more available to the mycelium. People have grown on hydrated coir (no heat treatments) successfully, so yes, anyone who blames the bucket tek for contams is just blaming the bucket tek for no good reason. Anyone who does that should look really carefully at his sterile tek, his spawn (grain prep included) and his coir for foreign objects.
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Pastywhyte
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Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: d0urd3n]
#23539948 - 08/14/16 06:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
d0urd3n said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Everyone loves to blame the bucket. But it's all bout clean spawn.
Unless there are random organic materials in your coir though right?
Wasn't it you who had issues a year or two back bucket teking coir and getting trich?
Yes and no. It was me that had issues. The problem was the coir had some weird seeds/grains bound up in the brick. So it wasn't the bucket. No matter how I would have prepped that, it would have contamed. A perfect pasteurization could not have saved it. I have stopped using that brand and never had a problem since that I felt like blaming on the coir.
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: d0urd3n]
#23540179 - 08/14/16 09:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
d0urd3n said: 60k BBL per year bodh? That's a lot of beer.
Curious, do you use starsan for anything in this hobby?
That was some great info, anyways.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Everyone loves to blame the bucket. But it's all bout clean spawn.
Unless there are random organic materials in your coir though right?
Wasn't it you who had issues a year or two back bucket teking coir and getting trich?
I mean your point still stands, for the vast majority its spawn and they want to blame bucket tek.
Did you end up finding a different coir supplier to fix this? Or was this not you, I can't really remember.
Starsan sucks I wouldn't even use it for homebrew. I vastly prefer using alpet(70% alcohol) or peroxyacetic acid(can't buy at home brew store)
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Kenetic
Nam Sayin



Registered: 08/24/14
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Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: bodhisatta]
#23540294 - 08/14/16 09:56 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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So I have definitely not heard that you can sterilize coir and get away with it. If this is true, then that's great because sterilizing coir is a lot easier imo. Is this a pretty popular idea or is it relatively new?
-------------------- Todo Cambia    DMT said: Everyone know's me, they just don't know it yet
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,889
Loc: Milky way
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Kenetic]
#23540297 - 08/14/16 09:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sort of new. The only reason you hear that you can't sterilise coir is noobs blaming failure on everything but themselves their spawn and their sterile technique.
I use eco earth coir 100% of the time too. You do find bullshit in the bricks. Hasn't caused me issues yet. Remove the plastic bits and nails
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Supalemonhaze]
#23540981 - 08/14/16 02:05 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would like to hear this from pasty as well, this is not speculation? You can confirm a fully sterile coir substrate in 10 min with boiling water poured on it? I don't know guys, if this was the case than don't you feel the commercial Agiricus industry would of hopped on this right away and moved to coir subs and casings? This would revolutionize that industry. And by the way, I KNOW coir works with whatever you do to it, treated or not, I just think it's wishful thinking to say this or that is the best when it comes to coir, because it always works And I don't know why it makes you guys feel better to believe it's fully sterile if it doesn't even matter
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23541009 - 08/14/16 02:13 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well given that the definition of sterile in this hobby means no microbial activity and since coir already has no microbial activity, all you really need to do is kill the few billion bacteria and mold spores etc on the outside of the brick. Maybe it's not 10^7 sterilization but I would doubt much would be alive.
That's not really the point tho. With coir we don't give a shit if it's sterilized or not. . .won't matter either way. What we want is for it to be well cooked so it's easier for the mycelium to colonize and break down.
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Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23541037 - 08/14/16 02:19 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Gotta hear it from pasty, inoc can't have a year old tek in his sig where he does it and explains that it doesn't matter.
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Rooster Cogburn
Ranger

Registered: 07/19/16
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23541071 - 08/14/16 02:29 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Well given that the definition of sterile in this hobby means no microbial activity and since coir already has no microbial activity, all you really need to do is kill the few billion bacteria and mold spores etc on the outside of the brick. Maybe it's not 10^7 sterilization but I would doubt much would be alive.
That's not really the point tho. With coir we don't give a shit if it's sterilized or not. . .won't matter either way. What we want is for it to be well cooked so it's easier for the mycelium to colonize and break down.
Exactly, coir is fine to use however it's cooked, I just feel like some newbies might be confused about what an actual sterile substrate is when they start reading that the bucket tek "sterilizes". Which seems to be a new trend on here, when the coir first started getting hot around here it was constantly called partial sterilization, which it technically is, when did the coir start getting more sterile? The more it was typed the more sterile it got?
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23541183 - 08/14/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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If I have a container of material with no microbial life inside it, how long does it need to be pressure cooked before it's sterilized? The answer is zero seconds.
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23541222 - 08/14/16 03:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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So for the record you are saying the bucket is properly sterilizing the coir? And the consensus is coir, an agricultural waste product, is completely deprived of any microbial life besides what may have fallen on the out side of the bricks? Again I dont argue coir works anyway it's cooked, this just seems like assumptions made into facts after years of people justifying and explaining why the bucket tek works.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Rooster Cogburn]
#23541242 - 08/14/16 03:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm saying that when they press coir bricks under heat and huge pressure, drying them out like crazy, the relatively low amount of bacteria and spores that may have been present are gonna be dead or at least damaged. Then you bucket tek the shit and not much of anything will be left.
Now compared to manure, which is like 35% bacteria in its composition or more, it's practically inert. Manure needs proper pasteurization and has bacteria populations in place to allow that to work.
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Rooster Cogburn
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Re: How reliable is the method of pasteurize coir just adding boiling water? [Re: Pastywhyte]
#23541350 - 08/14/16 04:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not just manure, basically every other substrate used in mushroom cultivation, needs to be properly pasteurized or sterilized or it will inevitably fail. And as far as these coir facilities in Sri Lanka and what not, I am not sure that these bricks are being heated up to the point you guys think. How? What is the heating process besides the pressure, it seems like third world facilities like that would be using as little energy as possible and the amount of energy heating that much waste product seems completely inefficient for a business in a third world country, especially one producing gardening supplies.
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