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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Can nothing exist?
    #23535328 - 08/12/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Can nothing exist? I personally dont think there could be nothing because "to be" is to exist and that means there can't be no thing for if there was no thing that's At least something? Idk I'm looping on this thought can someone else elaborate? ? Lol it's like space itself is an illusion right?


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23535379 - 08/12/16 04:26 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Here's something I wrote years ago on this subject:

Quote:

I shall now demonstrate that nothing cannot exist. Before you get any silly ideas about immortality, I should like to remind you of Uncle Bill's charming admonition:

"Forever is a time word. Time is that which ends."

Let us begin:

Nothing (as we normally conceive of it) cannot exist, as far as language (i.e. any extant human method) can demonstrate. Nothing is something, by definition. If we want to violate this definition and say that nothing is not something, it can't be nothing, either, because the word "nothing" is a referent to some thing -- something -- and the afferent cannot very well be the absence of something, which, as I have demonstrated, would not be nothing. So, nothing (as we unusually conceive of it) exists. In the absence of nothing (or, if you want, the presence of nothing in the classical terminology), there is no existence.... so there is not nothing (or, if you want, not not nothing), because to have nothing would mean that you have observed it... which is clearly impossible.

Abracadabra



http://archive.dividedquantum.info/




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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 2
    #23535485 - 08/12/16 05:00 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

zero is a great postulate
you can use it in math
you must actually
therefore it exists,
and if it doesn't
neither do we


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23535671 - 08/12/16 06:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Holy shit you blew my mind with that!! 
So in a nutshell nothing exists? But only if we violate our human understanding of existence of nothing and something?
Did you write that yourself divided quantum?  ?

Still kinda confused lol ineffable man ...ineffable


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23535729 - 08/12/16 06:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
? Lol it's like space itself is an illusion right?




Well according to Einstein space and time are interrelated, so physicists call it "space time".

On a simple level space is not an illusion, because it is what makes our everyday world 3 dimensional, no more, no less, exactly 3 directions at right angles to one another.

Space certainly seems intangible, but another evidence of it's structure
are the 17 wallpaper symmetry groups. If you have ever enjoyed M.C. Escher's lithographs and wondered how he made those patterns, and what are the rules, the rules are those of 2 dimensional symmetry.

Possible 3 dimensional symmetry patterns are way more complicated, but used by chemists who explore crystal structures. Again space actually seems to have an invisible structure, that limits rules for possible arrangements.

You can websearch this stuff and find good articles on wikipeadia.

As regards nothing I have nothing to say.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23535783 - 08/12/16 06:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
Did you write that yourself divided quantum?  ?





yeah


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Offlinetump
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23537038 - 08/13/16 04:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Of course nothing can exist. Just hard to measure. Think of concept of a void ship


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: tump]
    #23537080 - 08/13/16 05:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

'no-thing' means really no 'thing'. What do we think of as 'things'. Is that tree over there a 'thing'? Is it 'stuff'. OR is it rather patterning, active intelligence dynamically interrelated with the whole universe?

'thing' 'nothing'. The mindset drilled with dualistic thinking says (no offense), asks 'can nothing exist' not realizing that the term is an abstraction from a dynamic (?) which is both nothing and thing. you cannot have one without the other. If say you call space nothing, understand that we cannot observe an/or feel, and/or understand form without 'it'

When we take psychedelics often we become aware of the dynamic between what we call 'nothing/space' (which also of course can include psychological space) and forms. Many artists can also


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: connectedcosmos] * 1
    #23538017 - 08/13/16 01:32 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

connectedcosmos said:
Can nothing exist? I personally dont think there could be nothing because "to be" is to exist and that means there can't be no thing for if there was no thing that's At least something? Idk I'm looping on this thought can someone else elaborate? ? Lol it's like space itself is an illusion right?




I think language is hypnotizing. It seems like you can make sense out of nonsense.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23538028 - 08/13/16 01:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Chaos likes to be orderly in some ways.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23539233 - 08/13/16 10:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
'no-thing' means really no 'thing'. What do we think of as 'things'. Is that tree over there a 'thing'? Is it 'stuff'. OR is it rather patterning, active intelligence dynamically interrelated with the whole universe?

'thing' 'nothing'. The mindset drilled with dualistic thinking says (no offense), asks 'can nothing exist' not realizing that the term is an abstraction from a dynamic (?) which is both nothing and thing. you cannot have one without the other. If say you call space nothing, understand that we cannot observe an/or feel, and/or understand form without 'it'
...




seems like your turn to talk Buddhist dharma

from the The Heart Sutra

"O Sariputra! Form does not differ from the void, and the void does not differ from the form. Form is the void, and the void is form." ....

or


..."form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form ;
emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form,"...


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23539887 - 08/14/16 05:48 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

from the The Heart Sutra

..."form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form ;
emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form,"...




ideas are mind forms
emptiness is a mind form
any idea is not more nor less than emptiness
including the lack of any idea

for the mind is a universe supporting ideas or forms - they are the media of mind

this does not mean that each form is lacking in individuality, but each is of the same essence as emptiness


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23539896 - 08/14/16 05:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Chaos likes to be orderly in some ways.




I prefer E-Prime.  Chaos appears to like order in some ways to DQ.  I still don't know what that means, but it gives it at least some reference point, and knocks out the "to be" or "is" factor to the statement.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23539899 - 08/14/16 05:59 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

chaos and order are temporary properties in the overall process

hopefully it is a peace loving process


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23539909 - 08/14/16 06:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I would say something more along the lines of "Maybe chaos and order are temporary properties in the overall process."  Where do all these strong assertions about abstract ideas come from?


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23539913 - 08/14/16 06:15 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I would say something more along the lines of "Maybe chaos and order are temporary properties in the overall process."  Where do all these strong assertions about abstract ideas come from?



I am pointing at ideas that I see in my mind, echoing after reading the posts that come before.
I guess they come from the emptiness that preceded them, or maybe synchronicity.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540180 - 08/14/16 09:02 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

How about: As a general rule, chaos flows into orderly states in some situations and under certain conditions.

Imo, it seems hard to deny that both chaotic and orderly components appear together in the surroundings we find ourselves in.  They seem to work in synergy.


Edited by DividedQuantum (08/14/16 09:09 AM)


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Invisibleconnectedcosmos
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23540379 - 08/14/16 10:30 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's like duality is in everything, chaos order light dark day night happy sad if tere wasn't one there wouldn't be the other?


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OfflineThe Cheshire Cat
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23540400 - 08/14/16 10:38 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)



--------------------


"It's Hip to be square" -Huey Lewis
"All war is based on deception" -Sun Tzu


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23540502 - 08/14/16 11:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
How about: As a general rule, chaos flows into orderly states in some situations and under certain conditions.

Imo, it seems hard to deny that both chaotic and orderly components appear together in the surroundings we find ourselves in.  They seem to work in synergy.




It seemed to me like the whole idea behind science regards universal laws that never change?  Rather, our paradigms change as we become more lucid of the  cosmos...  What is the source of chaos?  Self-awareness?  The fact that conscious beings apprehend the universe non-simultaneously?  It takes time for what we are, which is essentially a chaotic system, to approximate an understanding of order.  Progress is often slow, other times we make quantum leaps.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540567 - 08/14/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think many scientists, if you asked them, might say it's possible for the laws of physics to change over time, as we simply don't know that they don't.  But yes it is our paradigms evolving that allows us to see more and more.  I don't know what the source of chaos would be, other than God, if you want, or whether it's eternal.  At the subatomic level, this change certainly appears chaotic.  But the very notion of an atom itself is one of subtle order.  So I feel that our universe operates on this dual principle: we have an existence in which some structural order has arisen from chaos, and through which change continues to flow chaotically.  I don't think the source of this is so much one's self-awareness as rather that it is somewhat objective.  But that's just my :twocents:.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23540584 - 08/14/16 11:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think we need to get some scientists in the house.  I'm not quite so sure that many scientists would agree with you...... I know a photon behaves as a wave when confined by certain instruments, and a photon appears as a particle when constrained by other instruments, and we are instruments in ourselves observing instruments.  Confusing as fuck?  Yes.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540664 - 08/14/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think the notion of wave-particle duality conflicts in any way with what I have said.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23540680 - 08/14/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think that systems that exhibit chaos are necessarily due to the structure of reality itself, but rather primates that are trying to comprehend something unfathomably complex.  'Out of chaos comes order' may be a better metaphor for the mind than the universe.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineGirthyFunGuy97
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540681 - 08/14/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Nothing exists as much as everything exists.

ZER0's Dao.  Wu Chi.  The beginning with no end.  Reminds me of the word maya in Sanskrit it means roughly "not that."  So everybody was freakin out when the age of illusions was over.  A baguazhang/Tibetan Bon Po Priest joked and said "HURRY IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO BE A REAL PERSON!"  hahahahaha.


Remain humble, give to those in need, do good things and pray for luckys.


--------------------
Absorb what is useful.
 

I wish to meet the man who speaks without words so that we may sit and have a conversation.  This man makes use of uselessness.  Purposelessness is the ultimate fluidity.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540706 - 08/14/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I don't think that systems that exhibit chaos are necessarily due to the structure of reality itself, but rather primates that are trying to comprehend something unfathomably complex.  'Out of chaos comes order' may be a better metaphor for the mind than the universe.




Quite possibly, yes.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23540727 - 08/14/16 12:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540753 - 08/14/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

People are realizing all the time that nothing is nothing..and nothingness is a source of Good feature and Virtue..thus to have nothing is to have everything..and therefore nothing both doesnt exist and does at the same time..like a circle going perpendicular to all the points on each node of the circle...still a circle as a whole and complete..but nothing necessarily exists between all dots and lines..and around and within..because its nothing it can exist anywhere..and because its nothing, it cant exist at all..so the philosophical conjecture..is: What started all this something..Was there first Nothing at all and then we made some progress in conjecture and thought..or were we here right now perfectly in this instant for ever, in eternity and through the Aeon and Aether..of the second sequel of the times of coming undone..In the end times..we all know that apocalypse ends in nothing..and begins in something..and that is the meaning of nothing..as a meaning and sequitur..in a nut shell..so Klipoth..is a feature of the shells of Kabbalah..and both the conditions and sequitur of the Sephiroth are indeed a true nature..into taming regards and spherical nuancy..


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 2
    #23540796 - 08/14/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:




I would be shocked if that hasn't happened.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23541260 - 08/14/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:




I would be shocked if that hasn't happened.




  This notion is based on the idea that we are separate from the rest of life. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for plants. Trees depend on fungi(mycorrhizal fungi). Fungi depend on the death of other life forms.
There are many more times bacterial cells in and on us than there are human cells. The 'junk' DNA is very probably the result of interaction with viruses in evolutionary time, which influenced important aspects of human evolution. And of course our much of our functioning is run by the unconscious.
  To me, the very notion of our 'separate conscious intelligence' seems sort of like hubris and failure to see the big picture. Funny in an astronomer, but of course he is not a biologist or psychologist, and likes to do shows for the public, and I suppose find 'cool' facts and speculations.
  And suppose humans finally found all the elementary particles and the physicists got their theory of everything. So what? Suppose everybody was kind and we didn't overbreed--suppose we had utopia--would we be any better than a flower?
  Tyson is a typical scientist so he overvalues cleverness and misses sacredness. (Not that I don't enjoy his videos and learn from him.)
  But sacredness is not about hierarchy, right?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23541481 - 08/14/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:




I would be shocked if that hasn't happened.




  This notion is based on the idea that we are separate from the rest of life. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for plants. Trees depend on fungi(mycorrhizal fungi). Fungi depend on the death of other life forms.
There are many more times bacterial cells in and on us than there are human cells. The 'junk' DNA is very probably the result of interaction with viruses in evolutionary time, which influenced important aspects of human evolution. And of course our much of our functioning is run by the unconscious.
  To me, the very notion of our 'separate conscious intelligence' seems sort of like hubris and failure to see the big picture. Funny in an astronomer, but of course he is not a biologist or psychologist, and likes to do shows for the public, and I suppose find 'cool' facts and speculations.
  And suppose humans finally found all the elementary particles and the physicists got their theory of everything. So what? Suppose everybody was kind and we didn't overbreed--suppose we had utopia--would we be any better than a flower?
  Tyson is a typical scientist so he overvalues cleverness and misses sacredness. (Not that I don't enjoy his videos and learn from him.)
  But sacredness is not about hierarchy, right?





Have you even taken a look at what's going on in the human race these days?  We're on the verge of ecological disaster, we have radical terrorists, megalomaniacs running for office?  If a higher form of intelligence like in the movie K-Pax came and helped heal us from our insanity, that would be fucking grand, imho.  Spirituality is not a pissing contest....  If anything, they'd liberate us from our power trips that keep us in a self-hypnotic trance that we're superior to the rest of the natural order.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23541561 - 08/14/16 05:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:



(1)  Have you even taken a look at what's going on in the human race these days?  We're on the verge of ecological disaster, we have radical terrorists, megalomaniacs running for office?


(2)  If a higher form of intelligence like ... that would be fucking grand, imho.  Spirituality is not a pissing contest.... 




1) If you had read my extremely detailed posts about current problems you wouldn't be asking me that. I think it would be poor form to repost-- here are the thread titles and links.

Man's knowledge of the fire of the sun

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23535416

Re: the Decline of the American middle-class

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23514104/page/1

(2) re: "a pissing contest" -- I already said that -- "But sacredness is not about hierarchy"

sometimes it seems like half of posting is trying to correct misunderstandings. I'm mystified as to where in my post you think I elevated human intelligence. In fact the gist was precisely opposite to that.

as regards: 'if we got saved'  nice fantasy sure ...

The sacred on the other hand is not only not hierarchical, it is also nontemporal, when the sacred is experienced, there is no waiting to be saved. That is the reason for contrasting the sacred with the physical.

It is really all very simple. I never said good things, good times, or intelligence were bad. But none of them replace awakening to the ever present dimension of the sacred, which includes nonhuman life and is not dependent on IQ scores, or physical utopia. And this very real ever present aspect of being aware-beings Tyson misses. Forgive the guy he hasn't tripped.


Edited by laughingdog (08/14/16 05:43 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23541701 - 08/14/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

First, I think you're only guessing as to what drugs Tyson has or hasn't used, where did you become privy to such information?  Second, this isn't the spirituality and mysticism forum, your claims on the basis of what spirituality is and whether it transcends space and time or is gained slowly through spiritual (or quite possibly neurological) techniques to 'undo oneself', transcend ego, and approximate greater degrees of freedom is a matter of opinion.  I think many of us have experienced peak experiences on drugs where we were liberated from the drama of our day to day lives, but it seems we always come back down again.  I think there's a good case to be made the we make greater approximations towards spirituality and freedom over time through hard work and effort.  There is no instant conversion, it's a life long process.

You asked if we would be any better than a flower if we achieved some kind of utopia, I took that as an assertion that we are experiencing some sort of self-hypnotic trance that we are superior to the rest of the natural order.  I didn't pinpoint you in particular, I was speaking of humanity in general.

Lastly, we have no idea what higher intelligence might be like, I never claimed it was the equivalency of scoring higher on some ethnically biased standardized test.  Higher intelligence could manifest in terms of empathy, compassion, etc.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23541859 - 08/14/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

once again

"sometimes it seems like half of posting is trying to correct misunderstandings."

You've had your say, I've had mine, and quite possibly if anyone bothers to read any of our posts, they will each think we each said or meant something different, than we thought we did. (And so they might choose to argue with each other).
In fact there is much literature on exactly this phenomenon. In the light of this, I feel no reason to further attempt disentanglement of issues, or prove anything. Although I feel there are further misunderstandings, they are only that, & not judgements of persons on my part. I don't post here to do 'dharma combat'. There may be others here that enjoy such competition, I find it tiresome and a waste of time. I have no vision of "ultimate truth" I'm selling. From some here I have gained some insight and enjoyment, and I hope some of my posts have seemed likewise to some others.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23541942 - 08/14/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Whatever you say, it sure seemed like you were judging how spiritually awake Tyson was.  I see an august gentleman.  Maybe he's not Ram Dass, but I prefer diversity, and think that spirituality manifests in many ways.  I really appreciate the way Tyson incarnates in this life, but whatever.  We'll leave our misunderstandings where they are, being that you are the one with all the corrections, and don't factor in the possibility that you might be wrong, I agree it's for the best.  Going to go tend to the flowers in the atrium, adios.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23542076 - 08/14/16 08:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

for the last 49 years I have been saying "be calm"


--------------------
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23542118 - 08/14/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

ouch


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23542389 - 08/14/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
for the last 49 years I have been saying "be calm"




Some days it must work better than others...  Before your hiatus, Ice & Lakefingers were up your ass you started melting on 'em.  You can always "be unique" though, there's pretty much only one redgreenvines out there.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23545780 - 08/16/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Chaos likes to be orderly in some ways.



it sucks.


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Offlinenothing exists
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #23546789 - 08/16/16 12:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

our physical reality is measured on the smallest scales as electric charge.  everything is made of electric charge.  atoms are electric charges separated by Nothing. electricity itself does not exist physically.  electric charges are a shadow of their source energy. the spark of life interacts on the Nothing to create reality. in the strictest terms, there is only Nothing.

Nothing exists


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i like you...


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: nothing exists]
    #23546803 - 08/16/16 12:48 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nothing exists said:
our physical reality is measured on the smallest scales as electric charge.  everything is made of electric charge.  atoms are electric charges separated by Nothing. electricity itself does not exist physically.  electric charges are a shadow of their source energy. the spark of life interacts on the Nothing to create reality. in the strictest terms, there is only Nothing.

Nothing exists




correct.


Edited by akira_akuma (08/16/16 12:59 PM)


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InvisibleInto The Woods
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23546831 - 08/16/16 12:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Neil Tyson has taken acid when he was younger. :lol:



I recall watching an interview of his in which he talked about it briefly. Forgive me but I'll try to dig it up later when it's not 4:50am and I'm not half asleep.

He's a brilliant man, I had the privilege of seeing him talk in Sydney a year or so ago, too.

Will check back into thread later. Posting now so I don't miss it because I've enjoyed most of what I've read.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: nothing exists]
    #23548927 - 08/17/16 03:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nothing exists said:
our physical reality is measured on the smallest scales as electric charge.  everything is made of electric charge.  atoms are electric charges separated by Nothing. electricity itself does not exist physically.  electric charges are a shadow of their source energy. the spark of life interacts on the Nothing to create reality. in the strictest terms, there is only Nothing.

Nothing exists




how did you come to that understanding?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: zzripz]
    #23550515 - 08/17/16 04:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

it's a reasonable projection that he has taken for his name, which doesn't make it right but not 100% wrong either.


--------------------
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: Into The Woods]
    #23551518 - 08/17/16 10:14 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Into The Woods said:
Neil Tyson has taken acid when he was younger. :lol:
[/image]






so? many have taken a trip with varying results. so i got a fact wrong, big deal.

i know he’s smart, i said i enjoy him too in the same post.(go back a page if you don't believe me). I was quite specific.

the point was about a view (1) that regards intelligence as the supreme accomplishment of man. and (2)
regards some superior intelligence as possibly the answer to all our problems.

the point was made that spiritual teachers all point out that the ’sacred’ is immanent, but we miss it because we don’t value it.

the market place gives money priority and scientists give knowledge and intelligence priority.

Jesus said to:
'first seek the kingdom of heaven within'
'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s'
etc
Buddha certainly put compassion before the pursuit of knowledge and cleverness for it’s own sake. And the heart sutra and buddhist teachings all point out that ‘enlightenment’ or whatever you want to call it is not an attainment, but is already an ever present truth, that we have ignored for so long, we have forgotten we’re ignoring it and are therefore suffering.
Other teachers same message,
Ramana Maharshi same message
Nisgradata Maharaj same message


I said nothing new here.

I used the sacredness of a flower as an example.
Apparently that was problematic, also.

but I said nothing new here.

2 different folks made these posts:

“I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.”

“I would be shocked if that hasn't happened. “

I simply pointed out that the above spiritual teachings, would indicate that if on the contrary a spiritually advanced being looked down on us they would not laugh and dismiss us anymore than we dismiss our ignorant children, on the contrary such a being would teach us. And that is exactly what all the above mentioned teachers did after awakening. And they all teach that the way to awaken is not through, money, intelligence, or power, or 'fixing' the external world. And they all teach it’s ok to help ‘fix the world’, but pointless if one doesn’t awaken first.

But don’t take my word for it, they all left teachings and writings that are readily available.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23552340 - 08/18/16 06:17 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

The spiritually advanced sure didn't have much insight into the future or what harm their teachings would cause by fundamentalists.  The most bloody of wars have been fought over religions incepted by these holy mens' alleged "spiritual awareness."  For every 1 being who approximated anything of experiencing the ecstatic moment from such teachings, perhaps 10,000 or more have died from it? That's not statistical information, that's a guess, much like you did with Tyson.  I mean, if you're going to have such esoteric information, maybe you should keep it a secret rather than mainstream it.  From my PoV, it's only done more harm than good.  Higher intelligence could be indicative of such spiritual advancement, and maybe they'd know best and just stay the fuck out of it.

It doesn't seem like you can teach a pack of baboons to play nice with one another.  Most of the time, it doesn't seem like psychedelic users on a philosophy forum can play nice with one another.  :strokebeard:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23553134 - 08/18/16 11:55 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
The spiritually advanced sure didn't have much insight ...  I mean, if you're going to have such esoteric information, maybe you should keep it a secret rather than mainstream it.  From my PoV, it's only done more harm than good.  Higher intelligence could be indicative of such spiritual advancement, and maybe they'd know best and just stay the fuck out of it.





Apparently the meditative traditions have helped many. Now mindfulness meditation is medically documented:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mindfulness+meditation+is+medically+documented&t=hi&ia=web

As you pointed out, that many teachings eventually get turned into organized religions, that end up doing much harm, is an unfortunate historical fact. Various religions have had varying degrees of violence and conflict associated with them. Of the more well known religions the only ones I know of that have a spotless record, in this regard, are Taoism & Jainism, and that may only be due to my ignorance of the historical record.

As far as I know both Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi (whom I mentioned) would both be classified as in the Advaita Vedanta, or ‘non dualist’, type tradition. As far as I know those who studied with them, have been peaceful; but they both gave little in the way of any sort of theology. Whether this was simply because none is necessary, or because of their intelligent understanding of how such stuff leads to attaching to concepts, and often pointless arguments as well, I do not know. It retrospect it does seem wise.
Buddha made a point of not attaching to ‘views’, but as we know, once it became a religion hundreds of years later it morphed into many forms. In China it mixed with Taoism and became chan or Zen, in tibet it mixed with the local indigenous religion, called Bön, and became very elaborate. And this happened in spite of Buddhas efforts to keep it simple.
I don’t know, if knowing this, made both Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi terse, or if that was naturally their nature.         

The same has also happened in other fields. I can think of one example at the moment, as they say: 'Freud was not a Freudian'. He was investigating and learning and revising his theories to the end, but after he died they made a movement: 'Freudian psychoanalysis'.

I too have wondered about the connection between intelligence and spirituality. In some ways it seems that what is called 'enlightenment' or 'higher states of consciousness'  in some ways seems analogous to what athletes call: 'being in the zone'. As I understand it 'being in the zone', increases both one's performance, and one's enjoyment of whatever the activity in question is, but does not raise either a person's knowledge or intelligence.

My guess is that the hype that surrounds some yogic notions such as: "the akashic field", "psychic powers", & "knowledge of previous lives", etc., has lead some to a distorted view of what awakening is actually about.

But if we look at what folks are doing that are getting the medically documented benefits of meditation, it involves none of this hyped up stuff. It is much simpler. The benefits are more modest, but real.


Edited by laughingdog (08/18/16 12:54 PM)


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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23553241 - 08/18/16 12:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:




Jesus said to:
'first seek the kingdom of heaven within'
'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s'
etc
Buddha certainly put compassion before the pursuit of knowledge and cleverness for it’s own sake. And the heart sutra and buddhist teachings all point out that ‘enlightenment’ or whatever you want to call it is not an attainment, but is already an ever present truth, that we have ignored for so long, we have forgotten we’re ignoring it and are therefore suffering.
Other teachers same message,
Ramana Maharshi same message
Nisgradata Maharaj same message


available.




Jesus never said first seek the kingdom of heaven within. This is what He actually said: "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." Ive been seeing this a lot lately new agers and spiritualists trying to make Jesus into a Buddhist. This is not correct. When reading that verse without the "within", it totally changes the meaning. He is saying seek God first for wisdom and righteousness, not yourself.

On one occasion Jesus said, “For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21), where He was speaking of himself. When you are under His lordship, and when He is in control of your life, that is the kingdom of God. It is not rules and regulations, but “righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 14:17) and certainly not in the sense that we are gods.


--------------------
Easily test the dosage of your tabs at home!:lsd:
qtests.org

Man says, "God, show me and I will believe." God says, "Believe and I will show you."


Edited by Aiko Aiko (08/18/16 12:59 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23553258 - 08/18/16 12:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

If I was to identify with a religion, I'd probably call myself a Taoist, because from my limited knowledge it seems to be the most peaceful and equitable religion out there.  We all know Buddhism has caused problems, but it approximates my second choice.....

One thing I've noticed about Freud is it seems he nailed the oral, anal, and moral aspects of just basic (non consciousness-expanded) terrestrial life.  What he missed was the rational!  I think it's because he took such a strong imprint on time binding, semantic, rational thought that he couldn't see himself.  It's way easier to see where other people are stuck than it is to turn the mirror in on yourself.  In that sense, I see Jung as having surpassed him, regarding post-terrestrial or expanded states of consciousness, experiencing synchronicity, though perhaps not having fully activated the heart chakra, to use Indian systems of psychology/spirituality. 

Well, it may be that intelligence needs to be redefined to include emotional well-being.  I saw some terrible reality TV show for a little while that tested child prodigies for like a $100k prize, and the way their parents treated them and the shame they felt from failure (they'd close in on them having a total emotional meltdown for millions of viewers) was pretty disgusting.

I think there is something to flow and expanded states of consciousness, I don't think it's necessarily all out enlightenment, but I think there is a release from the gravity of life, and it may have something to do with muscular tension and pack mentality, like Atlas bearing the world's weight on one's shoulders...  Surfers seem to have escaped this trap.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: Aiko Aiko]
    #23553269 - 08/18/16 12:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
Jesus never said first seek the kingdom of heaven within. This is what He actually said: "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." Ive been seeing this a lot lately new agers and spiritualists trying to make Jesus into a Buddhist. This is not correct. When reading that verse without the "within", it totally changes the meaning. He is saying seek God first for wisdom and righteousness, not yourself.

On one occasion Jesus said, “For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21), where He was speaking of himself. When you are under His lordship, and when He is in control of your life, that is the kingdom of God. It is not rules and regulations, but “righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Romans 14:17).



when he says within you in that last quote, he means literally if the power of God is with you then it's also within you, as Jesus said in Thomas, "Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."
and also  "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

ie, inside and outside....


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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: connectedcosmos]
    #23553288 - 08/18/16 01:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
zero is a great postulate
you can use it in math
you must actually
therefore it exists,
and if it doesn't
neither do we



I was gonna say something but then I read this and :mindblown:


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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: Aiko Aiko]
    #23553318 - 08/18/16 01:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:




Jesus said to:
'first seek the kingdom of heaven within'
'render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s'
etc
Buddha certainly put compassion before the pursuit of knowledge and cleverness for it’s own sake. And the heart sutra and buddhist teachings all point out that ‘enlightenment’ or whatever you want to call it is not an attainment, but is already an ever present truth, that we have ignored for so long, we have forgotten we’re ignoring it and are therefore suffering.
Other teachers same message,
Ramana Maharshi same message
Nisgradata Maharaj same message


available.




Jesus never said first seek the kingdom of heaven within. This is what He actually said: "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." Ive been seeing this a lot lately new agers and spiritualists trying to make Jesus into a Buddhist. This is not correct. When reading that verse without the "within", it totally changes the meaning. He is saying seek God first for wisdom and righteousness, not yourself.
...




indeed it is perhaps usually dangerous to quote Jesus as folks carry so much emotional baggage, in this regard, especially in the USA.
Your correction makes absolutely no difference to the main points of the post. Chill out dude. I am not one of the people with an agenda that upsets you. Jesus was one of four teachers mentioned. There are many others. I have no interest in Christian doctrine. If you can't see past your emotional triggers, you will remain susceptible to being randomly triggered with it's associated stress.

Eckhart Tolle, another spiritual teaher, goes into detail about the quote in one of his videos. You might find it interesting. Incidentally what we have are translations, none of which are perfect.

I have edited my post, to include more data on Advaita Vedanta which I find far more interesting than Christian doctrine. I also find Buddhism far more interesting than Christian doctrine, and don't think it needs any support from Jesus who came 500 years later. Likewise those who actually practice the christian meditative tradition such as Trappist monks, need no justification from Buddha, in my opinion.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23553394 - 08/18/16 01:58 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Further more if Jesus actually existed he was a Jew (not a Christian) and circumcised and most probably not with perfectly straight hair or extremely white skinned.

Buddha seems to have left many more teachings, by several scales of magnitude, but again we have no absolute proof of his existence.

Like wise Lau Tzu is an enigma.

But  both Nisargadatta and Ramana Maharshi  lived recently.

Since both Jesus and Buddha have unknown actuality, in my opinion, to have an agenda, as to how they relate, or who needed whom, would seem to be pure folly.

When it comes to the medically documented benefits of meditation, and on going MRI research, and other such studies we find ourselves on more meaningful ground imo.


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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23553509 - 08/18/16 02:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Nothing cannot exist except as a mathematical concept. I think such a vacuum would spark (did spark) the creation of something (the universe).


There was actually a highly publicized debate on the nature of nothing hosted by Neil DeGrasse over if nothing could in fact, contradictory to its name, exist.




I think 'nothing' arose as an obvious concept back when 'nothing' was believed to have been observed.

However, much later and quite recently (within the past 100 years or so) its been discovered that we cannot create nor observe an absolute 'nothing'. there was in fact something there and nothing ever really becomes nothing, rather it changes form or becomes apart of many different orders.
zero isn't an actuality its simply a useful tool.

Lawrence Krauss argues that because we have numbers that are so close to zero in some vacuums, that we may as well call them zero and nothing can exist.

Obviously this point is flawed as was pointed out by many participating in the debate that something is still there, and that there are things which cannot even be measured in the normal sense such as Higgs-fields, fabric of space-time, dark energy and matter.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.


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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: hTx]
    #23553611 - 08/18/16 03:02 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

And of course, unless string theory turns out to be true, one has the quantum fluctuations (aka "quantum foam") at the Planck scale, in which, at a fundamental level, the vacuum of space is actually teeming with robust activity.  So even if nothing could exist in vacuum, for this reason and others it truly does not.  As hTx points out, zero is an idealized mathematical concept and appears not to be possible in physical terms -- at least in any framework one could point to.  I suppose one could, however, posit an infinite nothing -- the sum total of all that doesn't exist.  Whether that has any meaning is doubtful.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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