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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540567 - 08/14/16 11:34 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think many scientists, if you asked them, might say it's possible for the laws of physics to change over time, as we simply don't know that they don't.  But yes it is our paradigms evolving that allows us to see more and more.  I don't know what the source of chaos would be, other than God, if you want, or whether it's eternal.  At the subatomic level, this change certainly appears chaotic.  But the very notion of an atom itself is one of subtle order.  So I feel that our universe operates on this dual principle: we have an existence in which some structural order has arisen from chaos, and through which change continues to flow chaotically.  I don't think the source of this is so much one's self-awareness as rather that it is somewhat objective.  But that's just my :twocents:.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23540584 - 08/14/16 11:43 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I think we need to get some scientists in the house.  I'm not quite so sure that many scientists would agree with you...... I know a photon behaves as a wave when confined by certain instruments, and a photon appears as a particle when constrained by other instruments, and we are instruments in ourselves observing instruments.  Confusing as fuck?  Yes.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540664 - 08/14/16 12:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think the notion of wave-particle duality conflicts in any way with what I have said.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23540680 - 08/14/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I don't think that systems that exhibit chaos are necessarily due to the structure of reality itself, but rather primates that are trying to comprehend something unfathomably complex.  'Out of chaos comes order' may be a better metaphor for the mind than the universe.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineGirthyFunGuy97
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540681 - 08/14/16 12:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Nothing exists as much as everything exists.

ZER0's Dao.  Wu Chi.  The beginning with no end.  Reminds me of the word maya in Sanskrit it means roughly "not that."  So everybody was freakin out when the age of illusions was over.  A baguazhang/Tibetan Bon Po Priest joked and said "HURRY IT'S NOT TOO LATE TO BE A REAL PERSON!"  hahahahaha.


Remain humble, give to those in need, do good things and pray for luckys.


--------------------
Absorb what is useful.
 

I wish to meet the man who speaks without words so that we may sit and have a conversation.  This man makes use of uselessness.  Purposelessness is the ultimate fluidity.


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540706 - 08/14/16 12:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
I don't think that systems that exhibit chaos are necessarily due to the structure of reality itself, but rather primates that are trying to comprehend something unfathomably complex.  'Out of chaos comes order' may be a better metaphor for the mind than the universe.




Quite possibly, yes.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #23540727 - 08/14/16 12:30 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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OfflineBrendanFlock
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23540753 - 08/14/16 12:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

People are realizing all the time that nothing is nothing..and nothingness is a source of Good feature and Virtue..thus to have nothing is to have everything..and therefore nothing both doesnt exist and does at the same time..like a circle going perpendicular to all the points on each node of the circle...still a circle as a whole and complete..but nothing necessarily exists between all dots and lines..and around and within..because its nothing it can exist anywhere..and because its nothing, it cant exist at all..so the philosophical conjecture..is: What started all this something..Was there first Nothing at all and then we made some progress in conjecture and thought..or were we here right now perfectly in this instant for ever, in eternity and through the Aeon and Aether..of the second sequel of the times of coming undone..In the end times..we all know that apocalypse ends in nothing..and begins in something..and that is the meaning of nothing..as a meaning and sequitur..in a nut shell..so Klipoth..is a feature of the shells of Kabbalah..and both the conditions and sequitur of the Sephiroth are indeed a true nature..into taming regards and spherical nuancy..


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InvisibleDividedQuantumM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 2
    #23540796 - 08/14/16 12:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:




I would be shocked if that hasn't happened.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23541260 - 08/14/16 03:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:




I would be shocked if that hasn't happened.




  This notion is based on the idea that we are separate from the rest of life. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for plants. Trees depend on fungi(mycorrhizal fungi). Fungi depend on the death of other life forms.
There are many more times bacterial cells in and on us than there are human cells. The 'junk' DNA is very probably the result of interaction with viruses in evolutionary time, which influenced important aspects of human evolution. And of course our much of our functioning is run by the unconscious.
  To me, the very notion of our 'separate conscious intelligence' seems sort of like hubris and failure to see the big picture. Funny in an astronomer, but of course he is not a biologist or psychologist, and likes to do shows for the public, and I suppose find 'cool' facts and speculations.
  And suppose humans finally found all the elementary particles and the physicists got their theory of everything. So what? Suppose everybody was kind and we didn't overbreed--suppose we had utopia--would we be any better than a flower?
  Tyson is a typical scientist so he overvalues cleverness and misses sacredness. (Not that I don't enjoy his videos and learn from him.)
  But sacredness is not about hierarchy, right?


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23541481 - 08/14/16 04:52 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Quote:

CosmicJoke said:
Ever watch The Unfathomable Universe by Tyson?  I found it amusing how he speculated that higher intelligences may exist that already have surveyed earth and view us as we would to chimps and have concluded there is no intelligent life on earth.  :lol:




I would be shocked if that hasn't happened.




  This notion is based on the idea that we are separate from the rest of life. We wouldn't be here if it weren't for plants. Trees depend on fungi(mycorrhizal fungi). Fungi depend on the death of other life forms.
There are many more times bacterial cells in and on us than there are human cells. The 'junk' DNA is very probably the result of interaction with viruses in evolutionary time, which influenced important aspects of human evolution. And of course our much of our functioning is run by the unconscious.
  To me, the very notion of our 'separate conscious intelligence' seems sort of like hubris and failure to see the big picture. Funny in an astronomer, but of course he is not a biologist or psychologist, and likes to do shows for the public, and I suppose find 'cool' facts and speculations.
  And suppose humans finally found all the elementary particles and the physicists got their theory of everything. So what? Suppose everybody was kind and we didn't overbreed--suppose we had utopia--would we be any better than a flower?
  Tyson is a typical scientist so he overvalues cleverness and misses sacredness. (Not that I don't enjoy his videos and learn from him.)
  But sacredness is not about hierarchy, right?





Have you even taken a look at what's going on in the human race these days?  We're on the verge of ecological disaster, we have radical terrorists, megalomaniacs running for office?  If a higher form of intelligence like in the movie K-Pax came and helped heal us from our insanity, that would be fucking grand, imho.  Spirituality is not a pissing contest....  If anything, they'd liberate us from our power trips that keep us in a self-hypnotic trance that we're superior to the rest of the natural order.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23541561 - 08/14/16 05:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

CosmicJoke said:



(1)  Have you even taken a look at what's going on in the human race these days?  We're on the verge of ecological disaster, we have radical terrorists, megalomaniacs running for office?


(2)  If a higher form of intelligence like ... that would be fucking grand, imho.  Spirituality is not a pissing contest.... 




1) If you had read my extremely detailed posts about current problems you wouldn't be asking me that. I think it would be poor form to repost-- here are the thread titles and links.

Man's knowledge of the fire of the sun

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23535416

Re: the Decline of the American middle-class

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23514104/page/1

(2) re: "a pissing contest" -- I already said that -- "But sacredness is not about hierarchy"

sometimes it seems like half of posting is trying to correct misunderstandings. I'm mystified as to where in my post you think I elevated human intelligence. In fact the gist was precisely opposite to that.

as regards: 'if we got saved'  nice fantasy sure ...

The sacred on the other hand is not only not hierarchical, it is also nontemporal, when the sacred is experienced, there is no waiting to be saved. That is the reason for contrasting the sacred with the physical.

It is really all very simple. I never said good things, good times, or intelligence were bad. But none of them replace awakening to the ever present dimension of the sacred, which includes nonhuman life and is not dependent on IQ scores, or physical utopia. And this very real ever present aspect of being aware-beings Tyson misses. Forgive the guy he hasn't tripped.


Edited by laughingdog (08/14/16 05:43 PM)


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #23541701 - 08/14/16 06:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

First, I think you're only guessing as to what drugs Tyson has or hasn't used, where did you become privy to such information?  Second, this isn't the spirituality and mysticism forum, your claims on the basis of what spirituality is and whether it transcends space and time or is gained slowly through spiritual (or quite possibly neurological) techniques to 'undo oneself', transcend ego, and approximate greater degrees of freedom is a matter of opinion.  I think many of us have experienced peak experiences on drugs where we were liberated from the drama of our day to day lives, but it seems we always come back down again.  I think there's a good case to be made the we make greater approximations towards spirituality and freedom over time through hard work and effort.  There is no instant conversion, it's a life long process.

You asked if we would be any better than a flower if we achieved some kind of utopia, I took that as an assertion that we are experiencing some sort of self-hypnotic trance that we are superior to the rest of the natural order.  I didn't pinpoint you in particular, I was speaking of humanity in general.

Lastly, we have no idea what higher intelligence might be like, I never claimed it was the equivalency of scoring higher on some ethnically biased standardized test.  Higher intelligence could manifest in terms of empathy, compassion, etc.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23541859 - 08/14/16 06:49 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

once again

"sometimes it seems like half of posting is trying to correct misunderstandings."

You've had your say, I've had mine, and quite possibly if anyone bothers to read any of our posts, they will each think we each said or meant something different, than we thought we did. (And so they might choose to argue with each other).
In fact there is much literature on exactly this phenomenon. In the light of this, I feel no reason to further attempt disentanglement of issues, or prove anything. Although I feel there are further misunderstandings, they are only that, & not judgements of persons on my part. I don't post here to do 'dharma combat'. There may be others here that enjoy such competition, I find it tiresome and a waste of time. I have no vision of "ultimate truth" I'm selling. From some here I have gained some insight and enjoyment, and I hope some of my posts have seemed likewise to some others.


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: laughingdog]
    #23541942 - 08/14/16 07:16 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Whatever you say, it sure seemed like you were judging how spiritually awake Tyson was.  I see an august gentleman.  Maybe he's not Ram Dass, but I prefer diversity, and think that spirituality manifests in many ways.  I really appreciate the way Tyson incarnates in this life, but whatever.  We'll leave our misunderstandings where they are, being that you are the one with all the corrections, and don't factor in the possibility that you might be wrong, I agree it's for the best.  Going to go tend to the flowers in the atrium, adios.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke] * 1
    #23542076 - 08/14/16 08:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

for the last 49 years I have been saying "be calm"


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #23542118 - 08/14/16 08:28 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

ouch


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #23542389 - 08/14/16 10:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
for the last 49 years I have been saying "be calm"




Some days it must work better than others...  Before your hiatus, Ice & Lakefingers were up your ass you started melting on 'em.  You can always "be unique" though, there's pretty much only one redgreenvines out there.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #23545780 - 08/16/16 12:03 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DividedQuantum said:
Chaos likes to be orderly in some ways.



it sucks.


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Offlinenothing exists
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: akira_akuma] * 2
    #23546789 - 08/16/16 12:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

our physical reality is measured on the smallest scales as electric charge.  everything is made of electric charge.  atoms are electric charges separated by Nothing. electricity itself does not exist physically.  electric charges are a shadow of their source energy. the spark of life interacts on the Nothing to create reality. in the strictest terms, there is only Nothing.

Nothing exists


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i like you...


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