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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



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Can nothing exist?
#23535328 - 08/12/16 04:10 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Can nothing exist? I personally dont think there could be nothing because "to be" is to exist and that means there can't be no thing for if there was no thing that's At least something? Idk I'm looping on this thought can someone else elaborate? ? Lol it's like space itself is an illusion right?
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DividedQuantum
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Registered: 12/06/13
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Here's something I wrote years ago on this subject:
Quote:
I shall now demonstrate that nothing cannot exist. Before you get any silly ideas about immortality, I should like to remind you of Uncle Bill's charming admonition:
"Forever is a time word. Time is that which ends."
Let us begin:
Nothing (as we normally conceive of it) cannot exist, as far as language (i.e. any extant human method) can demonstrate. Nothing is something, by definition. If we want to violate this definition and say that nothing is not something, it can't be nothing, either, because the word "nothing" is a referent to some thing -- something -- and the afferent cannot very well be the absence of something, which, as I have demonstrated, would not be nothing. So, nothing (as we unusually conceive of it) exists. In the absence of nothing (or, if you want, the presence of nothing in the classical terminology), there is no existence.... so there is not nothing (or, if you want, not not nothing), because to have nothing would mean that you have observed it... which is clearly impossible.
Abracadabra
http://archive.dividedquantum.info/
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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redgreenvines
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zero is a great postulate you can use it in math you must actually therefore it exists, and if it doesn't neither do we
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connectedcosmos
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Holy shit you blew my mind with that!! So in a nutshell nothing exists? But only if we violate our human understanding of existence of nothing and something? Did you write that yourself divided quantum? ?
Still kinda confused lol ineffable man ...ineffable
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laughingdog
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: ? Lol it's like space itself is an illusion right?
Well according to Einstein space and time are interrelated, so physicists call it "space time".
On a simple level space is not an illusion, because it is what makes our everyday world 3 dimensional, no more, no less, exactly 3 directions at right angles to one another.
Space certainly seems intangible, but another evidence of it's structure are the 17 wallpaper symmetry groups. If you have ever enjoyed M.C. Escher's lithographs and wondered how he made those patterns, and what are the rules, the rules are those of 2 dimensional symmetry.
Possible 3 dimensional symmetry patterns are way more complicated, but used by chemists who explore crystal structures. Again space actually seems to have an invisible structure, that limits rules for possible arrangements.
You can websearch this stuff and find good articles on wikipeadia.
As regards nothing I have nothing to say.
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DividedQuantum
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Did you write that yourself divided quantum? ?
yeah
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tump
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Of course nothing can exist. Just hard to measure. Think of concept of a void ship
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zzripz
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: tump]
#23537080 - 08/13/16 05:11 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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'no-thing' means really no 'thing'. What do we think of as 'things'. Is that tree over there a 'thing'? Is it 'stuff'. OR is it rather patterning, active intelligence dynamically interrelated with the whole universe?
'thing' 'nothing'. The mindset drilled with dualistic thinking says (no offense), asks 'can nothing exist' not realizing that the term is an abstraction from a dynamic (?) which is both nothing and thing. you cannot have one without the other. If say you call space nothing, understand that we cannot observe an/or feel, and/or understand form without 'it'
When we take psychedelics often we become aware of the dynamic between what we call 'nothing/space' (which also of course can include psychological space) and forms. Many artists can also
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CosmicJoke
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Quote:
connectedcosmos said: Can nothing exist? I personally dont think there could be nothing because "to be" is to exist and that means there can't be no thing for if there was no thing that's At least something? Idk I'm looping on this thought can someone else elaborate? ? Lol it's like space itself is an illusion right?
I think language is hypnotizing. It seems like you can make sense out of nonsense.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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DividedQuantum
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Chaos likes to be orderly in some ways.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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laughingdog
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Re: Can nothing exist? [Re: zzripz]
#23539233 - 08/13/16 10:45 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zzripz said: 'no-thing' means really no 'thing'. What do we think of as 'things'. Is that tree over there a 'thing'? Is it 'stuff'. OR is it rather patterning, active intelligence dynamically interrelated with the whole universe?
'thing' 'nothing'. The mindset drilled with dualistic thinking says (no offense), asks 'can nothing exist' not realizing that the term is an abstraction from a dynamic (?) which is both nothing and thing. you cannot have one without the other. If say you call space nothing, understand that we cannot observe an/or feel, and/or understand form without 'it' ...
seems like your turn to talk Buddhist dharma
from the The Heart Sutra
"O Sariputra! Form does not differ from the void, and the void does not differ from the form. Form is the void, and the void is form." ....
or
..."form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form ; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form,"...
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
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Quote:
laughingdog said:
from the The Heart Sutra
..."form is emptiness and the very emptiness is form ; emptiness does not differ from form, form does not differ from emptiness, whatever is emptiness, that is form,"...
ideas are mind forms emptiness is a mind form any idea is not more nor less than emptiness including the lack of any idea
for the mind is a universe supporting ideas or forms - they are the media of mind
this does not mean that each form is lacking in individuality, but each is of the same essence as emptiness
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


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Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: Chaos likes to be orderly in some ways.
I prefer E-Prime. Chaos appears to like order in some ways to DQ. I still don't know what that means, but it gives it at least some reference point, and knocks out the "to be" or "is" factor to the statement.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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redgreenvines
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chaos and order are temporary properties in the overall process
hopefully it is a peace loving process
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CosmicJoke
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I would say something more along the lines of "Maybe chaos and order are temporary properties in the overall process." Where do all these strong assertions about abstract ideas come from?
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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redgreenvines
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,539
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Quote:
CosmicJoke said: I would say something more along the lines of "Maybe chaos and order are temporary properties in the overall process." Where do all these strong assertions about abstract ideas come from?
I am pointing at ideas that I see in my mind, echoing after reading the posts that come before. I guess they come from the emptiness that preceded them, or maybe synchronicity.
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DividedQuantum
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How about: As a general rule, chaos flows into orderly states in some situations and under certain conditions.
Imo, it seems hard to deny that both chaotic and orderly components appear together in the surroundings we find ourselves in. They seem to work in synergy.
Edited by DividedQuantum (08/14/16 09:09 AM)
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connectedcosmos
Neti Neti



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It's like duality is in everything, chaos order light dark day night happy sad if tere wasn't one there wouldn't be the other?
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The Cheshire Cat
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--------------------
 
"It's Hip to be square" -Huey Lewis "All war is based on deception" -Sun Tzu
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CosmicJoke
happy mutant


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Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
DividedQuantum said: How about: As a general rule, chaos flows into orderly states in some situations and under certain conditions.
Imo, it seems hard to deny that both chaotic and orderly components appear together in the surroundings we find ourselves in. They seem to work in synergy.
It seemed to me like the whole idea behind science regards universal laws that never change? Rather, our paradigms change as we become more lucid of the cosmos... What is the source of chaos? Self-awareness? The fact that conscious beings apprehend the universe non-simultaneously? It takes time for what we are, which is essentially a chaotic system, to approximate an understanding of order. Progress is often slow, other times we make quantum leaps.
-------------------- Everything is better than it was the last time. I'm good. If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care. It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence. I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too. If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.
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