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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin]
    #23663133 - 09/20/16 08:50 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DinduNuffin said:
Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Quote:

DinduNuffin said:
@bodhiofankou,

now sir, you must go slowly!  are we not in agreement?  that is, things may exist outside of concept.  perhaps in the memory of another.  but the conceived sir, does not exist outside the conceiver.  the conceived is conceptual sir.  it is not a concrete item.  do you see the subtlety of it sir?  that is, the thing itself, the object, the experience, the person, the concept, might exist without your consideration, but your consideration does not exist without you.  is that not so sir?  does your subjective interpretation exist without you?  certainly they are one and the same.




Yes. Its just barely there. Sometimes I doubt theres even anything at all.




sir, would you go into it?




The separation. Between me, you, anything.


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Invisiblebrk
Unless...
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Registered: 04/10/14
Posts: 10,210
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Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin] * 1
    #23663140 - 09/20/16 08:53 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

If there's a duck in a room and someone shines a flashlight on it, its still a duck.


--------------------
"To the young it gives a vision of the dead and gone. While the old receive a passion to survive,
and the pattern picks the pockets of the palindrome, before the oscillating rhythm takes to flight..." - Rishloo



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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #23663157 - 09/20/16 08:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

@bohdiofankou,

yes, but would you go into it for a moment.  discuss it so the speaker can determine what you are describing.  these things we are discussing are quite abstract and cannot be adequately described with one approach.  sir, one light from one direction cannot illuminate the whole essence of this thing. 

are not words encapsulations of meaning?  so then each word we use is a micro approximation, a limiter of fact.  so when we communicate we can only communicate within the limitations of association.  the association one has with terms, images.  so please, if you could go into it.  explain the meaning you are trying to convey.


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OnlineLogicaL ChaosM
Ascension Energy & Alien UFOs
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Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin]
    #23663161 - 09/20/16 08:58 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

That psychedelic approximation metaphor makes a lot of sense. Psychedelics have so many variable, so many ways to experience psychedelics, it speaks to how subjection interpretation can be experienced in so many different ways from different perspectives.

Going with the metaphor, the Level 5 experience of any psychedelic seems to hold some uniformity. As in, having a level 5 breakthru experience with one psychedelic is very similar to having a level 5 breakthru experience with another psychedelic.

Could this be a metaphor for knowledge itself, that the mechanical basis of understanding is possible thru different methods with the same destination?


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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: brk]
    #23663173 - 09/20/16 09:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

brk said:
If there's a duck in a room and someone shines a flashlight on it, its still a duck.




@brk,

and what about a picture of a duck?  hmm?  a mechanical duck indistinguishable from a real duck without a better perspective?  and what if there was a tennis ball behind that duck?  would you see it?


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OfflineMental Slavery
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Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Bodhi of Ankou] * 2
    #23663176 - 09/20/16 09:01 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with you that everything i said was an abstract metaphorical model used to encapsulate meaning. Approximations, but not truth, certainly. In fact, i believe that "reality" is completely untouchable and that there is no such thing as direct experience, truth or objectivity. So yes, everything that i say will be an abstraction or symbol, not "pure" wisdom. And yes, of course the comments i made about psychedelics and jiddu krishnamurti in a little post on a forum were rather simplistic. Even if i were to formulate a very complex essay, however, i still feel it will still be meaningless and without understanding

In that post i guess i was trying to communicate my depression and lack of trust in the spiritual search, and how i think it might just all be a farce

Even if all the things that Jiddu says are true, even though i already disagree with many of his statements

I mean, even if i were to reach a permanent altered sate of consciousness, i dont think i would regard it as truth, and it certainly wouldnt mean there is a point or that it has inherent value. just another reality tunnel, lens, perspective, subjective view

i can give it value etc, but i still regard it as thought, and thought to me is meaningless (intellectually speaking)

Thanks for reading

hopefully my point was made, but i kind of doubt it


Edited by Mental Slavery (09/20/16 09:04 PM)


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OfflinePartoftheSource
NAUT GUILTY
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Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Mental Slavery]
    #23663187 - 09/20/16 09:04 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

The Tao that is spoken is not the true Tao.


--------------------
Shroomery Stickers!


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Invisiblebrk
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Registered: 04/10/14
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Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin]
    #23663195 - 09/20/16 09:05 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

You seem hung up on the duck, and not the question of why is there a box full of ducks and tennis balls on your lawn....


--------------------
"To the young it gives a vision of the dead and gone. While the old receive a passion to survive,
and the pattern picks the pockets of the palindrome, before the oscillating rhythm takes to flight..." - Rishloo



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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin] * 1
    #23663214 - 09/20/16 09:09 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

@logical chaos,

indeed.  now to rephrase: could it be sir, that the brain is mechanically, functionally, quite similar if not almost exactly the same as others in the same timespace?  so then could it be said that the deep physiological similarities related to psychedelics are an expression of the deep similarity between members of mankind?


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin]
    #23663223 - 09/20/16 09:13 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Those are several, very large, jumps in rationale you just made.


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Invisiblemt cleverest
clevendafodil

Registered: 08/19/12
Posts: 2,348
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Mental Slavery]
    #23663242 - 09/20/16 09:18 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

It is impossible to meet in dialogue without labeling. Are you not making approximations with every posted response? There can be no mental navigation at all without labeling, you would just be stuck with the first guy to come along claiming to know truth. Is that what hapened to you? is krishnamurti the first guru you were exposed to?


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InvisibleBodhi of Ankou
*alternate opinion blocks path*
Other

Registered: 06/02/09
Posts: 24,778
Loc: Soviet Canukistan Flag
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Mental Slavery]
    #23663260 - 09/20/16 09:23 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mental Slavery said:
I agree with you that everything i said was an abstract metaphorical model used to encapsulate meaning. Approximations, but not truth, certainly. In fact, i believe that "reality" is completely untouchable and that there is no such thing as direct experience, truth or objectivity. So yes, everything that i say will be an abstraction or symbol, not "pure" wisdom. And yes, of course the comments i made about psychedelics and jiddu krishnamurti in a little post on a forum were rather simplistic. Even if i were to formulate a very complex essay, however, i still feel it will still be meaningless and without understanding

In that post i guess i was trying to communicate my depression and lack of trust in the spiritual search, and how i think it might just all be a farce

Even if all the things that Jiddu says are true, even though i already disagree with many of his statements

I mean, even if i were to reach a permanent altered sate of consciousness, i dont think i would regard it as truth, and it certainly wouldnt mean there is a point or that it has inherent value. just another reality tunnel, lens, perspective, subjective view

i can give it value etc, but i still regard it as thought, and thought to me is meaningless (intellectually speaking)

Thanks for reading

hopefully my point was made, but i kind of doubt it




Which is why sometimes I feel like nothings really there. Theres just an approximation of something, and thats how it exists. Thats why it doesnt make any sense.


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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Mental Slavery] * 1
    #23663281 - 09/20/16 09:28 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Mental Slavery said:
I agree with you that everything i said was an abstract metaphorical model used to encapsulate meaning. Approximations, but not truth, certainly. In fact, i believe that "reality" is completely untouchable and that there is no such thing as direct experience, truth or objectivity. So yes, everything that i say will be an abstraction or symbol, not "pure" wisdom. And yes, of course the comments i made about psychedelics and jiddu krishnamurti in a little post on a forum were rather simplistic. Even if i were to formulate a very complex essay, however, i still feel it will still be meaningless and without understanding

In that post i guess i was trying to communicate my depression and lack of trust in the spiritual search, and how i think it might just all be a farce

Even if all the things that Jiddu says are true, even though i already disagree with many of his statements

I mean, even if i were to reach a permanent altered sate of consciousness, i dont think i would regard it as truth, and it certainly wouldnt mean there is a point or that it has inherent value. just another reality tunnel, lens, perspective, subjective view

i can give it value etc, but i still regard it as thought, and thought to me is meaningless (intellectually speaking)

Thanks for reading

hopefully my point was made, but i kind of doubt it




that's it sir!  truth is undefinable!  one can approach truth through relationship.  specifically, through duality in relationship.  and that is the METACONCEPT.  where it becomes complex is when you take the concept down into perception or up into society.  but it applies all the way in both directions on that continuum.  (perception to society continuum)  truth is discovered in the duality of relationship.  watch this in yourself sir, see if it is true. 

now sir, how in the name of jove can one reach a permanent state of consciousness?!  come on sir?!  this cannot be!  maybe the brain dead man!  but certainly not the man who is full of life!  there is not a state of enlightenment!  that is an approximation!  reality is pliable!  reality, or truth cannot be defined.  …but we can approach it, together.  (remember, cause we both represent different angles)

oh sir, don't you see!  it is not about adding on a new concept, a new element to the self, it is negation of the existing self concept through discerning what it is mechanically.  you cannot seek truth sir!  truth comes to you!


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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Bodhi of Ankou]
    #23663289 - 09/20/16 09:30 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

@bodhiofankou,

is it here sir?

are not words encapsulations of meaning?  so then each word we use is a micro approximation, a limiter of fact.  so when we communicate we can only communicate within the limitations of association.  the association one has with terms, images.  so please, if you could go into it.  explain the meaning you are trying to convey.

is this it?


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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: PartoftheSource]
    #23663299 - 09/20/16 09:32 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PartoftheSource said:
The Tao that is spoken is not the true Tao.




what is tao sir?  you'll have to excuse the speaker, he hasn't read any of the great books.  so the tao is chinese to me.


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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: brk]
    #23663302 - 09/20/16 09:33 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

because we are discerning sir.


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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: mt cleverest]
    #23663349 - 09/20/16 09:46 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
It is impossible to meet in dialogue without labeling. Are you not making approximations with every posted response? There can be no mental navigation at all without labeling, you would just be stuck with the first guy to come along claiming to know truth. Is that what hapened to you? is krishnamurti the first guru you were exposed to?




KRISHNAMURTI was no guru sir.  he was no teacher.  he was a fool!  did you not hear his stance on psychedelics!  he developed a preconception without having had the perspective to do so.  without a single experience.  it was an illusory approximation.  a fool sir!  not like us, who meet in earnest communion and discern.   

now as you point out, mental navigation, as well as social navigation are dependent on two things, approximation of the self, and approximation of environment. the relative space between these two objects is the very essence of consciousness, the fundamental nature of being.  to be is to be related.  so then one cannot discern the real in isolation, can they sir?  the must be in relationship.  relating to another perspective, by physically moving to the other side of the duck, or discussing the other side of the duck with someone in another location. 

are we together sir?


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OfflineMental Slavery
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Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin]
    #23663369 - 09/20/16 09:52 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
It is impossible to meet in dialogue without labeling. Are you not making approximations with every posted response?




yes i am

Quote:

mt cleverest said:
There can be no mental navigation at all without labeling, you would just be stuck with the first guy to come along claiming to know truth. Is that what hapened to you? is krishnamurti the first guru you were exposed to?




Yes, there is no mental navigation without labeling, why that means i would be stuck with the fist dude i encounter, idk


Quote:

Bodhi of Ankou said:
Which is why sometimes I feel like nothings really there. Theres just an approximation of something, and thats how it exists. Thats why it doesnt make any sense.




thanks for saying this. it's comforting to see someone else with similar opinions

Quote:

DinduNuffin said:
oh sir, don't you see!  it is not about adding on a new concept, a new element to the self, it is negation of the existing self concept through discerning what it is mechanically.  you cannot seek truth sir!  truth comes to you!




no, i am not exactly sure what you are saying here, but thanks for the response


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InvisibleDinduNuffin
the speaker
Registered: 08/11/16
Posts: 287
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: Mental Slavery] * 2
    #23663386 - 09/20/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

@mentalslavery,

"Yes, there is no mental navigation without labeling, why that means i would be stuck with the fist dude i encounter, idk"

a fist-dude encounter?  sir the KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE is no place for fisting dudes.  this is a place for discernment!


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Offlinemonkey_mine
Let x = x

Registered: 08/19/16
Posts: 12
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: THE KRISHNAMURTI CHALLENGE!!! WIN BIG MONEY!!! [Re: DinduNuffin]
    #23663388 - 09/20/16 09:57 PM (7 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

DinduNuffin said:
@monkey_mine,

could it be sir, that with the complete integral understanding of the self, which is environment, compulsion does not disappear leaving behind it an empty space, but rather it is immediately replaced with discernment?





Yes. Lovely.
Compulsion does not overtake the self, but rather compulsion is the self. Then complete integral understanding of the self obviates compulsion, which is immediately replaced with discernment and right action.
Does this answer your question then, of what determines the adequacy of understanding? We have determined it as the beginning of discernment and right action. Are we together in this, Mr. the speaker sir?


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