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Offlineloggrower
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Do you let grain spawn fully thicken?
    #23533036 - 08/11/16 09:56 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm kinda curious what the theory is on this... Do people here like to use their Oyster spawn when it's completed like 80% thickening, or do you let it fully thicken before breaking it up and using it?

Here is a 1-4 expansion of PL at day six. Notice you can see the hazy areas starting to thicken where I point to it with the green arrows. It's only around 10% thickened, but it will start moving very fast now that it has started!



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OfflineGr0wer
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23533061 - 08/11/16 10:04 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I just used spawn that was only 95% and really light, 5 days from G2G. I guess we will see how that turns out. Typically i let it turn into a block.


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OfflineStupendous-Yappi
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Gr0wer]
    #23533428 - 08/12/16 12:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It can make it hard to break up if you wait too long. It's also a waste of energy/time to have it idly consuming energy when it could be using that energy to crawl across a substrate.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Stupendous-Yappi]
    #23533435 - 08/12/16 12:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stupendous-Yappi said:
It can make it hard to break up if you wait too long. It's also a waste of energy/time to have it idly consuming energy when it could be using that energy to crawl across a substrate.




I was thinking the same thing... You don't want it to get to the point where it's trying to go into fruiting mode and starts expanding toward fresher air to try to find a place to fruit...

But, you also want it to be locked in and digesting nearly every kernel of grain at near full speed.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23533682 - 08/12/16 05:20 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Kinda looks like something has eaten all the zinc, and I see metabolites and patchy areas.

What oyster is this? and does it smell of anything odd?
There's some inhibitory action going on.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23533851 - 08/12/16 07:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Kinda looks like something has eaten all the zinc, and I see metabolites and patchy areas.

What oyster is this? and does it smell of anything odd?
There's some inhibitory action going on.



I felt the same when i saw it. The growth looks like its in competition with some bacteria. Try sprinkling  a few grains onto agar to see.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23534471 - 08/12/16 11:28 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Kinda looks like something has eaten all the zinc, and I see metabolites and patchy areas.

What oyster is this? and does it smell of anything odd?
There's some inhibitory action going on.




Nope, it has the proper sweet smell. I did notice it was a little odd how some kernels exploded and colonized, and some sat around for days before doing anything.

The metabolites formed nearly immediately off some of the older grains. It's also possible part of this spawn was heat damaged.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23534535 - 08/12/16 11:42 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Here is another batch started the other day. This one I did with a higher water content to see if that was causing the patchy start. Same 1-4 expansion. The spawn shipment I got still has this odd behavior, a few grains explode into colonization, while many sit around for days... This is Blue Oyster, the PL Strain.

You can easily tell whats the new grain. I added the white sorghum. Soaked for 16 hours, then sterilized at 16PSI for 1 hour and ten minutes in quart jars. Transferred to Ziploc bags while still over 200f. Spawned once cooled to room temp.



Never had patchy colonization before with this strain, but... I previously always just top spawned stuff like 80/20 sawdust/grain mixes.


Edited by loggrower (08/12/16 03:54 PM)


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23535312 - 08/12/16 04:06 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Ok, let me show you a strange area... The area on the left in green looks normal, but the area on the right... Those kernels of grain have just sat there thickening for a week and never colonized outward from themselves! Mycelium grew in from other areas.

It is whitening up a lot more now as it approaches seven days. But, why would kernels just sit there and whiten for a week only expanding a couple mm, while others explode with around three quarters of an inch of mycelium growth?



Edited by loggrower (08/12/16 04:12 PM)


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23535465 - 08/12/16 04:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

As I said, its most likely something has eaten the nutrients and reduced the ratio.
Inhibited growth due to consumption of required "out growing" nutrients.

I'd say light contamination from the spawn you added.
It does'nt look major, but it needs a clean.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23535650 - 08/12/16 05:57 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

That is very interesting... How would you suggest cleaning it up? Is it possible to add the nutrients it needs? Sterilize some bran or something, break it up, and mix it in?

This is spawn from a usually reliable commercial source.


Quote:

Ferather said:
As I said, its most likely something has eaten the nutrients and reduced the ratio.
Inhibited growth due to consumption of required "out growing" nutrients.

I'd say light contamination from the spawn you added.
It doesn't look major, but it needs a clean.




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OfflineFerather
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23535689 - 08/12/16 06:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

My vendor spawn comes with light contamination, I grow mine on the WL Tek.
I won't go into detail but it happens to work like agar or coir.

You want the basic WL Tek, no pet pellets.
Else read up on agar cleaning.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23535867 - 08/12/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm going to coat the spawn in 250f sterilized powdered nutritional yeast and see if that gives it enough nutrients to take off, if not... Ill try SPF + YN.

Quote:

Ferather said:
You want the basic WL Tek, no pet pellets.
Else read up on agar cleaning.




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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23536531 - 08/12/16 11:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
You want the basic WL Tek, no pet pellets.




Do you happen to know if SPF is a little too strong to say powder extremely finely and put it in a bag of broken up spawn and coat the spawn grains in it before adding to the sterilized grain? Using the same ratio as you use for your dry sub. Or, use the liquid form and do the same thing...

Not sure if this stuff is like fertilizer which burns plants if you put on too much.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23536632 - 08/12/16 11:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

loggrower said:
Here is another batch started the other day. This one I did with a higher water content to see if that was causing the patchy start. Same 1-4 expansion. The spawn shipment I got still has this odd behavior, a few grains explode into colonization, while many sit around for days... This is Blue Oyster, the PL Strain.

You can easily tell whats the new grain. I added the white sorghum. Soaked for 16 hours, then sterilized at 16PSI for 1 hour and ten minutes in quart jars. Transferred to Ziploc bags while still over 200f. Spawned once cooled to room temp.



Never had patchy colonization before with this strain, but... I previously always just top spawned stuff like 80/20 sawdust/grain mixes.




I'd say that although its not uncommon for bought spawn to be less then healthy and sometimes with dead, bad, weak or slow grains especially upon a g2g transfer; that your problem could mostly be transferring your sterilized grains into ziploc bags...:facepalm3:

Whats your initial spawn look like before expansion?


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: poofterFroth]
    #23536684 - 08/13/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

poofterFroth said:
Whats your initial spawn look like before expansion?




Like this... Just after it arrived, straight into the fridge at 34F. There are around 2-3" unbroken chunks. Right side and top...



Edit: Or, wait... Did you mean how do the broken up grains look?


Edited by loggrower (08/13/16 12:20 AM)


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: poofterFroth]
    #23536709 - 08/13/16 12:25 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

poofterFroth said:
that your problem could mostly be transferring your sterilized grains into ziploc bags...:facepalm3:




Nope, that's not a problem. They are ziplocked at over 200f straight out of the pressure cooker. No bacteria is going to land on them and survive... The only ever time I had spores as a problem was with Shiitake spawn.

In other news, the second batch I did is doing better... No stalled grains so far. If they whiten, they take off... Longer soak time, and small amount of water added. Small amount of melted grains on the bottoms of the quarts...

My grains are probably coated with accidental sorghum agar... LoL! I also warmed the spawn up a full 24hr beforehand.


Edited by loggrower (08/13/16 12:52 AM)


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23536779 - 08/13/16 01:12 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Many people make the mistake of thinking these Oyster strains are delicate... I have colonized this strain straight down two inches into dirt and rock out of poplar logs.

It can knit together gravel so strong you have to pound it apart...


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23536806 - 08/13/16 01:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Still, the bottom line is that this is horrible response time... Exactly two days now, and most the spawn isn't responding yet. Anything that isn't white Sorghum is the spawn. My sterilized grain is the White Sorghum. They use a Red Sorghum/Milo mix.



Getting supplies tomorrow... Nutritional yeast, Soluble Plant Food, etc... Going to experiment with coating this spawn with some stuff to see if I can get it to consistently respond.

Powdered mixes of sterilized SPF + Nutritional Yeast... And Composted Chicken Manure + Nutritional Yeast. Let the spawn chew on that a couple days, then lets see if it responds better!

Edit: You know... Perhaps we are all over-thinking this, maybe I should not have immediately refrigerated the spawn... Maybe it needs a five day recovery time after being shipped.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23537078 - 08/13/16 05:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Well, to save you time, coating it in high concentrate powder undiluted, will burn it.
If you have a mist sprayer, make the right dose into water, mist the grains.

You must use a SAB or flowhood if you are going to do that.

----

I would skip all of that, and start again.

----

Here is what I would do:

Buy some paper pellets, kitty litter, they are grey coloured pellets.
Buy the SPF and YN, follow the recipe, use as spawn.

Skip grain spawn, it's pricy to use ready carbs.
Wood lovers convert plant fiber to food.


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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23537922 - 08/13/16 12:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I have to be certified organic, so while I will test your WL Tek... But, I will have to mod it by trying organic micro-nutrient fish fertilizer/chicken manure, and other stuff.

I looked at this SPF I bought, it's very very heavy on nitrogen. Are you sure most the growth boost isn't from putting the mycelium on nitro?

Quote:

Ferather said:
Buy some paper pellets, kitty litter, they are grey coloured pellets.
Buy the SPF and YN, follow the recipe, use as spawn.

Skip grain spawn, it's pricy to use ready carbs.
Wood lovers convert plant fiber to food.




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Offlineloggrower
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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23537963 - 08/13/16 01:15 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Skip grain spawn, it's pricy to use ready carbs.
Wood lovers convert plant fiber to food.




Yea, they do... I use to grow out tons of spawn on sawdust and oatmeal. I used flattened oats that melted when PC'd to partially cover the sawdust... Works amazing.

However, I need to get grain spawn down.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23537991 - 08/13/16 01:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Fair play, you have your head set on a chosen method.
Speak to Gr0wer or Drake for accurate, recent info.

Gr0wer prefers organic fertilizers too.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23538118 - 08/13/16 02:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ferather said:
Fair play, you have your head set on a chosen method.
Speak to Gr0wer or Drake for accurate, recent info.

Gr0wer prefers organic fertilizers too.




With the volume I can move... I need to work with a cheap commercial spawn source, or one with spawn that can be bulked! I move more in dry mushrooms than fresh.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23561797 - 08/21/16 12:06 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Just wanted to report back.

SPF + YN mixed at a ratio to get 1% Nitrogen... Added 25 Grams to quarter pound of spawn. Not heavily sterilized, just baked at 250f for an hour.

Fully contaminated after a day and a half... Weird little dots formed all over the grain even before the mycelium took off.

Composted Organic 3-2-2 Chicken Manure + YN to get 1% added Nitrogen... Holy sh*t! Explosive thick mycelium growth! Same weak sterilization, will move to testing with full wet PC sterilization.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23562074 - 08/21/16 03:53 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

So the SPF + YN was more potent, good. Those dots are bacteria.
You made them more aggressive and faster, shame.

It's good you got a usable second result.
This is why I avoid adding grains.

Well done, keep us updated.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23578064 - 08/25/16 11:08 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I have noticed that the grains that do not colonize fast in this commercial spawn have a tendency toward forming a weird nearly transparent "slime" like layer, mostly visible when up against plastic.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23578068 - 08/25/16 11:12 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

I'm going to test an experimental way of cleaning up this spawn... Grow it out in quart jars of grain, except with a inch of sawdust on top, and a tunnel down through the middle of sawdust put in place with a sawdust filled tube.

The idea is that the mycelium will flash down through the sawdust and through the grain and maybe whatever it's got doesn't follow fast enough.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: loggrower]
    #23578457 - 08/26/16 02:58 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

loggrower said:
I have noticed that the grains that do not colonize fast in this commercial spawn have a tendency toward forming a weird nearly transparent "slime" like layer, mostly visible when up against plastic.




Pics of slime?  Could be over colonized spawn.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: invitro]
    #23578608 - 08/26/16 05:19 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Throw it away, that is a very nasty bacteria that produces fatal toxins and slime.
Do not open it indoors. Using grains can prove so fatal.

Please use another tek.


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23578646 - 08/26/16 05:52 AM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Really like to see a pic. Sounds like over colonized spawn to me. Never saw the slime thing!


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: Ferather]
    #23579918 - 08/26/16 12:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

Please provide supporting details for this claim.

Quote:

Ferather said:
Throw it away, that is a very nasty bacteria that produces fatal toxins and slime.
Do not open it indoors. Using grains can prove so fatal.

Please use another tek.







Edited by adadada (08/26/16 12:54 PM)


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Re: Do you let grain spawn fully thicken? [Re: adadada]
    #23580810 - 08/26/16 04:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago)

It's most likely Bacillus cereus, which can cause food poisoning and common on grains.

Here is the info about wet spot, and bacterial slime.


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