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iiilil
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Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts
#23529897 - 08/10/16 11:25 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Tower of Babylon - Inquiry / Thoughts
Based on the story of the tower of Babylon in Genesis in which it states that the Lord confused the language of people so that they would not understand another's speech and scattered them abroad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel
Assuming this were true, Would it not be reasonable to assume this event shaped the many religions that were to come? An elongated game of telephone spread across language barriers would necessarily influence what religious belief people came up with. Doesn't this defeat the point? Wont tons of souls be lost by there not being a 'true' consensus as to who god was and what his words truly were?
As such, just on the basis of language, how can one religion claim to be the authoritative belief system of the world? That their god and their stories are indeed those of the 'true' God? What of the stories of other people? Other languages, that was apparently enacted beyond their control?
Furthermore, what was the nature of this event?
Genesis 11:5 5 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."
How exactly does that work? Man is not God as it is quite clearly stated. How is it that men could have fashioned something such that nothing could be with-held from them?
Genesis 11:8 8 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. Genesis 11:8
I inquire so as to maybe gain understanding that eludes me...Just can't seem to wrap my head around this one... I think on this a bit and I think .. Ah', human life. First there were just two : Adam/Eve... Then there were more and more 'souls' brought into the earth to suffer for the sins that Adam/Eve committed.
At some point, a group of them got together and somehow fashioned something that was such that : "nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them." ... which would seem impossible for man as it is conveyed that man is with limit.
So, the lord came down and confused them and scattered them? Why not let it end there? If life is indeed suffering and a battle of souls and there was a point that man could have ended thousands if not millions or billions of years of 'suffering', why was it deemed necessary to continue the 'game'? Why couldn't it have ended with Adam/Eve? Them having free-will, could they have maybe said : you know what... We messed up and we dont want to see others suffer due to us and walked out stage right? Would there have been divine intervention to prevent this? Why? And how does this work such that there can be intervention anytime things end up going too south?
Man gets too powerful and its not the right time... Boom (reset button). Even assuming it's for good purpose and a grand plan... It's kind of like? Really...
It is held that, every-time a human being gives birth, a 'soul' is apparently brought into this world to have to slog through the cross-hairs of the devil/god ....a hell of sorts in a battle to keep their soul in the after-life to avoid hell.. Some lose the battle ... So, why, keep the game going? Why let the soul count keep racking up? Increased number of souls potentially going to hell... What's the difference between 10 souls and 100 more souls they bring into the world?
If man found a 'way out', why were they stopped?
What's the difference between Adam/Eve's soul vs. them giving rise to billions more and then billions more? The count is not high enough? The time not long enough? And here we are apparently stuck in the thick of it waging a battle for our souls... Souls that didn't ask to be brought into this world/battle... Would a battle of 100 not have been good enough? 1,000,000?
As it is written, if one were to believe this particular text, there obviously seems to be a much deeper story going on...
Everything seems sound and coinciding with goodness and your inability to ever achieve it without God's grace.. Then you hit a head scratcher like this... And I know it is held that we can't know God's plan but its like.. There are souls being lost apparently to the devil .. being condemned to an eternity of hell... That had no choice as to whether they were brought into this game. What's the deal w/ keeping the soul count racking up with time? The Devil apparently already lost his battle, God is .. well, god.. he's fine... But here we are suffering while a count gets racked up on either side...

So I dunno, I have had some hang-ups with things before and have come to an understanding but this one is knawing at me.
What are your thoughts? Lets, for discussion sake, avoid bashing and just try to sort through this (assuming it happened). I could go on and on and how something about this just isn't right .. but i'll get off the mic for a little bit.
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viktor
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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: iiilil]
#23530371 - 08/11/16 06:04 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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There is only one language - it is the language of thought and frequency, masculine and feminine in an interdependent spectrum.
-------------------- "They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."
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demiu5
humans, lol


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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: iiilil]
#23530598 - 08/11/16 08:10 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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while not completely factual, i highly recommend reading Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson for an interesting look into this topic. while it is a fictional story, he draws a lot from archaeological/linguistic records concerning Sumer
-------------------- channel your inner Larry David
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Lucis
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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: iiilil]
#23530874 - 08/11/16 09:39 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
iiilil said:
As such, just on the basis of language, how can one religion claim to be the authoritative belief system of the world? That their god and their stories are indeed those of the 'true' God? What of the stories of other people? Other languages, that was apparently enacted beyond their control?
I was writing about something kind of similar to this years ago, and that was there was one thing which is God, the feelings which are considered Godly have been interpreted by peoples from all over the world differently, in ways that represented the area of the world they were in.
So you have people in Africa who see a lion, and the power of the lion taking down prey, so in their scripture they might say God is like a mighty lion, or people in another part of the world might see a mountain which is majestic, and they compared God to a mountain, you see where I am going with this.
-------------------- ©️
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: iiilil]
#23538910 - 08/13/16 08:21 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Methinks you're confusing the myth of Babel - which describes human hubris, with Babylon, an ancient region in Babylonia, or perhaps its capital city Babylon. The story of the tower of Babel is clearly a mythic attempt to clarify the origin of human differences. It also speaks of hubris as a self-willed attempt to 'storm heaven' during an era when the physical 'heavens' were conflated with a metaphysical abode of deity.
As for hubris, I prefer the Greek myth of Icarus and Daedalus his father. Icarus was told to keep a middle course between the sun and the waters, the former would melt the wax that held the wings together, the latter would moisten his wings and weigh him down. Icarus gave no heed and in his hubris soared too close to the sun which melted his wings causing him to plummet to his death in the dark waters below. Psychologically, this is a story of ego-inflation which invariably results in a fall. It is seen in the condition of Bipolar I Disorder where a hypermanic phase is followed by a depressive phase, but it occurs outside of this disorder among those who for whatever reason (e.g., fame, fortune, talent, etc.) become ego-inflated, lose their talent or popularity and fall into abject depression or suicide. This process occurs at the macro-level with civilizations. Rome is an ancient example, Nazi Germany a more recent example. The Roman emperors believed they were deities; Hitler's tack was to raise his broken countrymen's identity to one in which they all believed they were Teutonic deities - a "Master Race." Currently, we see Donald Trump demonstrating psychopathic narcissism along the same lines (I'm waiting to see him crash and burn). Mental health exists in a narrow space between inflation and deflation.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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iiilil
Stranger


Registered: 01/08/16
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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: viktor]
#23539075 - 08/13/16 09:38 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
viktor said: There is only one language - it is the language of thought and frequency, masculine and feminine in an interdependent spectrum.
Yes, I too have my views on the more foundational language .
I just got kind of stirred up when it came to an interpretation of that section of the bible and further along thoughts that sprung from it.
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Duncan Rowhl
Fiducia Christum



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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#23539083 - 08/13/16 09:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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The tower of Babel is representative of the futile reach to attain the height of God by non applicable, physical means, which is coincedentally, the prime delusion.
God is non local and is in the root of the self. No tower, nor monument defines nor touches it.
Babylon is a secular which was and is, controversial. The riches garnered are argued to be acquired selfishly, but on the other hand, regarded as a dividend for the spiritual investment. Tithing was a practice which exemplified this.
Knowing what 'rich' is, in the true sense, manifests its counterpart. A rich spirit by default, renders material 'riches' as a result of the minds sum.
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iiilil
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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: demiu5]
#23539087 - 08/13/16 09:41 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
demiu5 said: while not completely factual, i highly recommend reading Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson for an interesting look into this topic. while it is a fictional story, he draws a lot from archaeological/linguistic records concerning Sumer
Wow, so someone mentioned that book to me some time ago and I ordered it but got turned off by the cyber punk tough guy language in the opening.
You're the second person to advise me to give it a read. I came across one of his lines : "in the beginning was the command line" and just read a little about snow crash regarding the 'tower of babel'. Oh man, I'm going to have to crack it open ^_^. Thank you !
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iiilil
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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: Lucis]
#23539096 - 08/13/16 09:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, I indeed see where you're going. Definitely one of the thoughts I had about world religions that made me want to explore more and with an open mind ! Solid
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iiilil
Stranger


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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#23539187 - 08/13/16 10:22 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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1st off, I just want to say that I always enjoy your commentary Markos ! I really would appreciate if you can provide some follow up commentary based on my comments below 
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Methinks you're confusing the myth of Babel - which describes human hubris, with Babylon, an ancient region in Babylonia, or perhaps its capital city Babylon. The story of the tower of Babel is clearly a mythic attempt to clarify the origin of human differences. It also speaks of hubris as a self-willed attempt to 'storm heaven' during an era when the physical 'heavens' were conflated with a metaphysical abode of deity.
Very interesting take. I sat and thought about this for a while and wow.. I see what you're saying. Kind of hits hard when you capture the meaning and I feel that is definitely a component and take-a-way reflection. Thank you for sharing that.
My only issue is with more literal words :
Genesis 11:5 5 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."
This speaks literally (from what I can tell), of god perceiving a "people" who all have one language. This is quite literal imo. And his reflection is "now, nothing they propose will be witheld from them". What is your explanation/interpretation of that?
Furthermore :
Genesis 11:8 8 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.
Again, quite literal.... Your thoughts please? I can see how this can be interpreted as the fall of a bunch of people working together on a collective goal w/ great hubris/ego. However, I can't get past the words that literal say that there as an intervention and 'now, nothing will be witheld from them'.
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MarkostheGnostic said: As for hubris, I prefer the Greek myth of Icarus and Daedalus his father. Icarus was told to keep a middle course between the sun and the waters, the former would melt the wax that held the wings together, the latter would moisten his wings and weigh him down. Icarus gave no heed and in his hubris soared too close to the sun which melted his wings causing him to plummet to his death in the dark waters below. Psychologically, this is a story of ego-inflation which invariably results in a fall.
There are many falls in one's life. One could say that life is a playing out of the first great fall across space-time. It is important to avoid ego-inflation as one seeks and it is important for one to moderate their hubris to maintain a middle course. However, we must all journey on. For some, that journey will be treacherous and beset on all sides. While one can chose a more middle path and not purposely or, with great hubris, seek to test the limits of here/there it can nonetheless confront them every step of the way. The wife, two kids, and a picket fence isn't the path set out for every man. So, some may face the limits of experience no matter what their choices are in the matter.
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MarkostheGnostic said: It is seen in the condition of Bipolar I Disorder where a hypermanic phase is followed by a depressive phase, but it occurs outside of this disorder among those who for whatever reason (e.g., fame, fortune, talent, etc.) become ego-inflated, lose their talent or popularity and fall into abject depression or suicide. This process occurs at the macro-level with civilizations. Rome is an ancient example, Nazi Germany a more recent example. The Roman emperors believed they were deities; Hitler's tack was to raise his broken countrymen's identity to one in which they all believed they were Teutonic deities - a "Master Race." Currently, we see Donald Trump demonstrating psychopathic narcissism along the same lines (I'm waiting to see him crash and burn). Mental health exists in a narrow space between inflation and deflation.
I hear you but there is also the condition in which people are born with such conditions and afflictions. So, I hear your point about ego-inflation/hubris. It is a very important point to not carry on with great ego/hubris. It is destructive.
I don't feel I am doing this through my inquiry. I read several solid interpretations which reference this even as the cause of the spread of the languages among the human race. It was based on people after the flood disobeying the order of god to spread and multiply. Instead, they gathered and attempted an uprising against him. So, he confused their language so they could not attempt something which they were capable of attempting at the time : “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them." and thus caused them to break up and spread across the world.
As the text is quite strongly worded. This seems to be another 'lesson' of the text. As such, curious of this text, I inquire :
> How exactly does that work? Man is not God as it is quite clearly stated. How is it that men could have fashioned something such that nothing could be with-held from them?
> What is the nature of this intervention? > Why is it necessary for a multiplication of souls to occur over time ? Would a battle of 100 souls be any different than billions?
> The question of the 'playing out of things' over space-time..... ^ I feel you deeply know what I am referring to here Markos

So share a little ... Lets get a little deeper into this.
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iiilil
Stranger


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Re: Tower of Babylon / What's really going on... Inquiry&Thoughts [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
#23539213 - 08/13/16 10:36 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: The tower of Babel is representative of the futile reach to attain the height of God by non applicable, physical means, which is coincedentally, the prime delusion.
Yes and I think it is a very profound capturing of this lesson. However, there seem to be other components to this as quoted :
Quote:
Genesis 11:5 5 And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them."
Quote:
Genesis 11:8 8 Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth. Genesis 11:8
These quoted verses seem quite literal imo. Indeed there are other take-a-ways here. But, the above words define the reflections of the lord and his actions in this world as it is written.... I don't take such verses as representative. They are indeed quite literal and that's where my inquiry focuses.
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: God is non local and is in the root of the self. No tower, nor monument defines nor touches it.
Babylon is a secular which was and is, controversial. The riches garnered are argued to be acquired selfishly, but on the other hand, regarded as a dividend for the spiritual investment. Tithing was a practice which exemplified this.
Indeed and this is a solid take-a-way.
Quote:
Duncan Rowhl said: Knowing what 'rich' is, in the true sense, manifests its counterpart. A rich spirit by default, renders material 'riches' as a result of the minds sum.
So you're saying that one will 'see' the true value in the physical by being more knowing of what is truly valuable. This I agree with if that's what you're saying by 'render'.
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