|
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? 2
#23529312 - 08/10/16 07:20 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I went this route to get to this point: MS>rye berries>Hpoo,verm,gypsum at a 1:2 spawn ratio 2 inch substrate. I cased it a bit early with pasteurized jiffy seed starter, then I put it straight into fruiting conditions.
Temp constantly at 77 Fahrenheit. Spitball mono setup with 2 trays in each tub. Loose poly. Considering tightening.
I realize that the thick overlay might not be the only problem here. The mycelium is quite bubbly and funky looking and it's starting to yellow and bruise blue. Get ready to cringe at this picture. It's hideous I know.

Should I keep it going or re-case it? Any other suggestions?
I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't make a mockery of this thread btw. Any vain or Uninformative comments and trolling SHALL NOT BE REPLIED TO *slams magical staff on ground*.
Thanks in advance
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23529382 - 08/10/16 07:40 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Lt.Berkenstine said: I would greatly appreciate it if you didn't make a mockery of this thread btw. Any vain or Uninformative comments and trolling SHALL NOT BE REPLIED TO *slams magical staff on ground*.
Thanks in advance
Ahem....
Dat shit look funky yo.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Inocuole]
#23529392 - 08/10/16 07:44 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
well you're not wrong...
I'll take it! Thanks man!
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23529401 - 08/10/16 07:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I really don't know though, you should keep waiting for someone who does.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Inocuole]
#23529415 - 08/10/16 07:51 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Inocuole said: I really don't know though, you should keep waiting for someone who does.
You're the greatest.
I'm playing kingdom hearts birth by sleep right now so we're technically friends whether you accept it or not
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23529421 - 08/10/16 07:53 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Fair enough. If you're doing that in PPSSPP there's a 60fps hack that's pretty neat, makes the whole game buttery smooth.
But yeah I had some pan myc on agar for a while and it started looking like that and I was like "fuck this" and tossed it. I'm hanging around to see what the actual verdict is on this nasty shit before I start another round.
|
lvnthalife
Stranger


Registered: 07/20/14
Posts: 662
Loc: ohio river valley
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Inocuole]
#23529489 - 08/10/16 08:18 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Inocuole said: I really don't know though, you should keep waiting for someone who does.
Learning experience. Theres still a lot i havnt learned, but if this something you dont even know Inocuole then this seems like a chance to NOT learn the hard way.
Good luck OP
--------------------
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: lvnthalife]
#23529502 - 08/10/16 08:23 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
It smells surprisingly good. No metabolite either.
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23529597 - 08/10/16 08:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
If I had more experience with pans I'd be able to say. That's one of my shortcomings. I have a few different things kicking around I haven't grown out yet.
|
302to501
Stranger
Registered: 08/10/16
Posts: 20
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
|
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: 302to501]
#23529620 - 08/10/16 08:50 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Okay... No. This is not how the forum works. You don't come into someone's thread, change the subject, and post your picture. Make your own thread. Preferably in the identification forum if you're going to be asking for an ID.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/postlist.php/Board/3
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Inocuole] 1
#23529663 - 08/10/16 08:59 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Inocuole said: If I had more experience with pans I'd be able to say. That's one of my shortcomings. I have a few different things kicking around I haven't grown out yet.
Any experience with reishi mushrooms? I think that'll be my next grow. I want to grow antlers as opposed to those lil clamshell shrooms.
Also I have the PS3 final mix version :/
Quote:
302to501 said:

-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
weetsie
unlicensed tub surgeon



Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 572
Loc: United Kingdom
|
Re: are these real [Re: 302to501]
#23529669 - 08/10/16 09:01 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
subbing to another cyan thread.
-------------------- Active grow logs: Oysters on Straw Pellets Trade list
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: are these real [Re: weetsie]
#23529772 - 08/10/16 09:35 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
weetsie said: subbing to another cyan thread.

well thanks for the invisible link but I'm pretty sure I've read it already. Would this cyan thread tell me to leave it be or take action?
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
|
Um... he's saying that he... is subscribing to this thread, by posting in it thusly. Sorta like I did.
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
|
Re: are these real [Re: Inocuole]
#23529803 - 08/10/16 09:46 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I am no pan expert, however I have experienced overlay like that enough times to play around with scratching, recasing, flipping, etc. So far I think the solution is to toss and start over with a fresh culture.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
|
Oh. I think that was my biggest face palm yet.
I also forgot to mention that this is day 3 in fruiting, so those things just ripped right through the casing. Would you recommend I actually incubate after casing for a few days before fruiting?I've read that you don't have to but its in most of the teks I've read. Trying to troubleshoot the process but I'm worried I might just not have a 100% clean culture.
I have a some more trays almost ready to case. Seriously hoping that they're not all contaminated at this point. I think pan cyan might actually require some agar work. I've sailed by using MS>LC for cubensis and I'm hoping i can do it again with pans. I'm realizing by looking at these weird yellow blobs of myc that the odds are probably not in my favor lol.
couldnt hurt to try with the next trays in line I guess :/
The ugliest most bubbly looking cubensis tub I have ever encountered actually spit out multiple huge flushes with a 14 grammer so I'm not tossing it quite yet lol
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
Edited by Lt.Berkenstine (08/10/16 11:38 PM)
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
|
|
Sailing along is not recommended period. But Pana even less so.
|
azur
God of Fuck



Registered: 04/21/12
Posts: 28,103
Loc: Daid
|
|
Sure that's not mycogone?
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
|
Re: are these real [Re: azur]
#23529920 - 08/10/16 11:37 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah. It's pretty common with pans. Even my better pan grows had a fair amount of overlay in parts.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
|
So, you don't think it has mycogone? Didn't get your response. it looks similar but not the same to me :/ I don't want mold hanging around that's for sureZ
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23529946 - 08/10/16 11:54 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
No mycogone... I've had plenty of mycogone, it doesn't look like that. Mind your thread subject. It keeps trying to be, you know, something out of an underage kid's imagination.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Inocuole]
#23529961 - 08/11/16 12:05 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Can you rephrase that cause I'm not sure what I did wrong
I'll stay on topic and act my age I suppose
Edited by Lt.Berkenstine (08/11/16 12:05 AM)
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23529967 - 08/11/16 12:13 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I'm talking about "Are these real?" Which.. has nothing to do with you, rather the dude who thread jacked you.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Inocuole]
#23529992 - 08/11/16 12:37 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23535840 - 08/12/16 07:11 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Got home from work to find a few tiny pins in 2 of my trays, but all four of my trays are getting small amounts of mold. I guess I'll keep you updated on the trays that I just cased which are incubating now
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
liloldme
( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)つ=D



Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5,087
Loc: Zone 8
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: Lt.Berkenstine]
#23536630 - 08/12/16 11:43 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
ahaha, are these real..
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: Very thick overlay on pan cyan trays. Should I let it continue or re-case? [Re: liloldme]
#23540758 - 08/14/16 12:39 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
This is not going well. Already spot treating my new trays with everclear
I had hope for these trays because I used a different method of Hpoo pasteurization. I'm more than likely going to have to dump all of my trays and come back in a month or so when I have a clean culture.
Well I definitely picked shitty way to learn my lesson about that. Don't learn like I did. Start with agar.
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
dankington
The Stranger




Registered: 03/14/15
Posts: 4,577
Loc: 8te
|
|
Everclear won't do any good.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
|
Would I be better off with bleach or should I just go pick up some peroxide? I mean I doubt I'll be able to contain the contams enough either way. So far 6/12 trays have gotten mold.
So I have a question. If all my rye jars grew out just fine, no smell, no mold, lightning fast growth, then is it likely that the problem lies with my bulk sub and not my culture? I just started PCing some agar anyways but I'd like to get your opinions on that.
I did a hot water bath w/ oven bag pasteurization for 2.5 hrs at 160-170 and i did an oven pasteurization with a big ass pot filled with Hpoo for 3ish hours at 170. I ensured that my temps were stable with a candy thermometer. The pot in the oven had a lot more Hpoo hence the extended time.. It was around 14 quarts. Sound like too much poo to you?
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
liloldme
( ͝° ͜ʖ͡°)つ=D



Registered: 05/15/04
Posts: 5,087
Loc: Zone 8
|
|
best advice I have is to start over and clean things up on agar before going to grain. If you must keep them to continue fruiting, I find it's best to remove the entire infected spot with a clean fork.
|
Lt.Berkenstine
Stranger

Registered: 03/10/16
Posts: 305
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
|
Hey pasty! Have you ever tried super-spawning like blue-helix and anno did way back in the day? They really seemed to knock it out of the park with this method but I know it's probably outdated.
Just to refresh your memory, they knocked up bags full of sterilized poo and just waited for it to colonize, layed it out, and cased it.
Rather than spawning to bulk - sterilized RYE to pasteurized Poo.
Currently waiting on first transfers to grow out. Looking surprisingly clean already :/ Will post pics for approval.
-------------------- B+ outdoor bouquet GT monotub monster
Don't sass me.
|
Inocuole
Scalpel of Evil's Bane



Registered: 11/21/11
Posts: 24,863
Loc: ★
|
|
Super spawning is really only something you want to do with outdoor grows. It tends to work well because small animals love grain spawn, but will likely leave colonized bulk alone.
Otherwise, I can't say it's got anything about it that makes it worth the effort. Pasty's opinion may be different of course.
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
|
|
Blue helix certainty had results with that and pans, but it wasn't superspawning. Just colonizing sterilize poo in sterile conditions really. I haven't tried it myself tho. I would save it for the pans too, cubes need more nutes if you want to see good harvests.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
I know this is an old post, but I lurk from time to time. My old grows were mentioned here, but let's talk about what I did. I did not super spawn, guys. I added maybe 10% birdseed and the rest was horse manure, pressure cooked it in the bag, added liquid culture, shaked, let to colonize, then laid the tray. That's pre-spawning (i.e. I added grain to the final substrate before it was colonized). It's not super spawning like when you add a whole lot of fully colonized grain to the uncolonized substrate to beef it up.
Lt.Berkenstine, you want to know why your grow turned out like that? It was because of the "1:2 spawn ratio" If you are going to add that much grain, pan cyans won't know what to do with it Now I know why you did it: you wanted to knock one out of the park, right? Well, adding too much grain or supplements to pan cyans grow substrate will do one of two things: (a) if you are unlucky, you'll contaminate, or--and this is what happened to you--(b) if doesn't contaminate the mycelium will never get the message that the food is gone and it's time to fruit, instead overlay the hell out of the tray, and then fail to fruit because that species needs that casing-substrate interface. In the end you might end up with a ton of fluffy mycelium but not many fruits.
Pan Cyans aren't the only mushroom that does this by the way - probably most of them do. Take something like Shiitake. Ever see Shiitake grown from a super-spawned, ultra-rich sawdust block? You know why you haven't? Because the fruits won't develop right or possibly at all if you do that, and that is a species that basically creates its own casing interface (that hard outside layer)
So don't try to soup up the fruit out substrates growing most anything other than cubes (and cubes will fruit no matter what they are grown on, even pure grain). Cubes are weird because even if you overlay the hell out of the casing, they still can fruit even without a casing interface layer. Pan Cyans are more typical and _need_ that interface. Just keep the supplementation low and the horse poo high, so you don't overlay the casing so bad that you basically can't fruit it.
And as for what I'd have done if I saw trays like yours? I'd have tried to fruit them just like you did, and in the end, I'd probably not have many fruits (or any) to show for it. Sometimes you're best just starting over. I know it sucks, but you probably learned something, right?
Edited by Blue Helix (08/24/18 10:43 PM)
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Blue helix certainty had results with that and pans, but it wasn't superspawning. Just colonizing sterilize poo in sterile conditions really. I haven't tried it myself tho. I would save it for the pans too, cubes need more nutes if you want to see good harvests.
Darn, I didn't notice this reply. You are correct in everything you said I think.
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
|
|
Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Blue helix certainty had results with that and pans, but it wasn't superspawning. Just colonizing sterilize poo in sterile conditions really. I haven't tried it myself tho. I would save it for the pans too, cubes need more nutes if you want to see good harvests.
Darn, I didn't notice this reply. You are correct in everything you said I think.
Thanks, nice to see old hands come back, I remember reading your logs when I was a noob.
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
Quote:
Blue Helix said: I know this is an old post, but I lurk from time to time. My old grows were mentioned here, but let's talk about what I did. I did not super spawn, guys. I added maybe 10% birdseed and the rest was horse manure, pressure cooked it in the bag, added liquid culture, shaked, let to colonize, then laid the tray. That's pre-spawning (i.e. I added grain to the final substrate before it was colonized). It's not super spawning like when you add a whole lot of fully colonized grain to the uncolonized substrate to beef it up.
Lt.Berkenstine, you want to know why your grow turned out like that? It was because of the "1:2 spawn ratio" If you are going to add that much grain, pan cyans won't know what to do with it Now I know why you did it: you wanted to knock one out of the park, right? Well, adding too much grain or supplements to pan cyans grow substrate will do one of two things: (a) if you are unlucky, you'll contaminate, or--and this is what happened to you--(b) if doesn't contaminate the mycelium will never get the message that the food is gone and it's time to fruit, instead overlay the hell out of the tray, and then fail to fruit because that species needs that casing-substrate interface. In the end you might end up with a ton of fluffy mycelium but not many fruits.
Pan Cyans aren't the only mushroom that does this by the way - probably most of them do. Take something like Shiitake. Ever see Shiitake grown from a super-spawned, ultra-rich sawdust block? You know why you haven't? Because the fruits won't develop right or possibly at all if you do that, and that is a species that basically creates its own casing interface (that hard outside layer)
So don't try to soup up the fruit out substrates growing most anything other than cubes (and cubes will fruit no matter what they are grown on, even pure grain). Cubes are weird because even if you overlay the hell out of the casing, they still can fruit even without a casing interface layer. Pan Cyans are more typical and _need_ that interface. Just keep the supplementation low and the horse poo high, so you don't overlay the casing so bad that you basically can't fruit it.
And as for what I'd have done if I saw trays like yours? I'd have tried to fruit them just like you did, and in the end, I'd probably not have many fruits (or any) to show for it. Sometimes you're best just starting over. I know it sucks, but you probably learned something, right?
This explains all 4 of my shitty pan grows this year. Good to see you back, BH. We haven't met but I've read everyone of your posts on here and mycotopia regarding pans. You've inspired a lot of people on this board.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
Thanks! Yeah, nice to see the place is still hoping, way more than back in the day! It looks like lots of great techniques here, and lots of great grows, and plenty of help for all. In the end, I think one thing matters with growing in my view - attention to detail. It's the same story no matter what you are growing really.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 2
#25412224 - 08/25/18 10:29 AM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks, Asura, and I was inspired by lots of folks on here too. I remember Agar, Waylitjim, RogerRabbit, etc. Most of the ideas I had were by listening to the people here, maybe sometimes tweaking it a little, and taking notes. If you keep trying to grow pans, one day you'll have that 50% BE grow! It happens, and it's pretty impressive when it does, basically outperforming cubensis in terms of the number of trips per pound substrate. Just make sure you have some help with all the picking! Like I remember this one grow where it took me and two other guys about two and a half hours to pick the first flush and we didn't have but maybe 8 little 13x9 trays growing. The reason I like these little guys is that you can encapsulate them. You can do that with cubes too, of course, but no one wants to gulp down 5 capsules like that. It's like here, just take a handful of capsules, and the usual reaction is "isn't that too much?". With pans a single 750mg capsule can trip one out pretty hard. Two will take you to the moon sometimes.
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
Yeah, I found out about pan dosage the hard way. It was not fun
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
Asura just messaged me showing me another overlaid casing with pans that looked like a white blob monster. Look, let me tell you how pans cyans are supposed to work. At about 10% WBS, you will get the overlay. You WANT that whispy kind of overlay at first with pan cyans, but not the uncontrollable white fluff monster from beyond like in this grow. The overlay will then sort of settle back, but it'll keep the casing secured anyway. After it settles back, you should see what appears to be salt sprinkles on the casing or something. Those are the pins, and if you got a good whispy overlay going early on, they'll be dense and grow fast. Soon you'll be flushing. The key is, though, don't make the substrate too rich. If you do, you'll overlay so heavily that you'll seal off the substrate entirely.
|
mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
|
|
I've been gleaning information from your legendary grows for a while now.
I currently have some Jamaican prints that, when taken to fruiting, love to overlay. Your substrate recipe calls for a very small amount of WBS- especially considering that the ratios are by weight.
When you say at 10% WBS- you will get overlay- is that weight of WBS to weight of Hpoo or to all the sub components together?
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
No, I do not get the thick undesirable overlay at 10% WBS. In fact the substrate formula I've had the best luck is 10% dry weight WBS to dry weight horse manure. But if I start trying to pack a lot of nutrients in the substrate like you can do with cubensis, I can get the kind of heavy overlay that is bad.
Speaking of this, though, pan cyans often grows wispy mycelium through the casing and will totally colonize it by day 3 after being laid. That kind of wispy mycelium through and over the casing is desirable, though. When I say the "bad overlay" I mean when the mycelium grows so thick on the top that you can no longer see the casing. Those thick mats prevent pinning in that area. And yeah, I agree that in my experience, even the tendency for pan cyans to form that kind of overlay is partly genetic, although you make it worse if you use too many nutrients in the substrate, don't give the trays a chance to recover and shift gears after you lay them but before you case them, or put something nutritive like coco coir in the casing.
|
mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
|
|
Most growers now do "Spawn to Bulk" grows where the colonized grain spawn is mixed with pasteurized substrate at ~a 1:2 VOLUME ratio of spawn to sub. Since you are doing weight ratios and grain is relatively heavy vs hpoo your grain ratio is WAY less than what people are typically doing now.
Your results show that Pans need very little grain. I guess it makes sense- they are so small they just dont need to eat as much. Have you ever tried NO WBS in the sub?
I have a batch of Jam prints that all want to overlay- We hope to try them using your sub recipe.
|
Just_A_Noob
Breathing



Registered: 12/30/16
Posts: 6,809
Loc: PNW
|
|
-------------------- Wearing a mask is bad for my physical, emotional, and spiritual health. Complying = Consent Wide Mouth 1/2 Pint No-Pour TEK TC Teks & Links
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
What you are showing is what I call the "bad" kind of overlay. I probably should just call it overlay. The reason I don't say that growing through the casing is bad is that all my best grows had it. But enough blabber; I'm going to show some of my pictures.
Look at the following Jamaican trays six days after casing:

In that picture, wouldn't you say that mycelium is growing through the casing? It is, but that resulted in this harvest:

And that kind of casing growth happened almost every time for me. The key here is, though, that the mycelium was growing through the casing, not mating over it like a fluff mycelium cloud monster out of control. And even then it would tend to grow, cover, and sort of relax back in before the pins came.
What makes the difference in how the casing colonizes? I think part of it can be the substrate itself. If it's too rich, the mycelium will tend to grow too thick into the casing. Another thing I think that helps prevent heavy overlay is allowing the trays a little time (day to three) after laying before you put the casing over. And one should never forget the moisture levels too. Too much water can cause casings mycelium to be ropey with mats on top rather than evenly through as you want.
Despite all my concerns and trying various things, I've had trays that did overlay more than I'd have liked but still produced a decent flush. In fact, I'd say when it comes to pan cyans, you're probably better off with a little overlay than an undercolonized casing because an undercolonized casing can mold pretty easily.
Okay, back to the pictures... here are a few more pictures of casings colonizing correctly with pan cyans:
and
And that led to FIVE strong flushes (it just started to get downright silly after the fifth flush so I threw the trays out because I got bored not because they contaminated - they never did). Let me just post the fifth flush, which had, by far, the fewest fruits per square inch:

Here is another grow day 3 post case showing PERFECT colonization through the casing (no overlay just through and over with wispy growth) Notice how the casing almost appears dry... well, it's not; that's just how the mycelium makes it look. NEVER allow the casing to dry out before the first flush!

Which led to this first flush:

Here are a couple more shots on day 4 post case:
 
which led to this harvest :
 
Anyway, I hope I'm getting the point across. Growing through and even over the casing is fine. Big mats over the casing is bad. You can do yourself a favor to prevent those mats by not going overboard on the nutrients in the substrate, giving the mycelium a chance to slow down after you lay the tray but before you case, making sure the casing moisture is not too wet, etc.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/25/18 09:50 PM)
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
Mary, I have not tried a run that uses no WBS, but I think that is a good idea and, in my opinion, we should try it! You see what I want to achieve is casing mycelium penetration without excessive colonization. You WANT the casing to be colonized fully, but you don't want it to be closed off such that the mycelium treats the casing just like more substrate. The issue is that I never had trouble with a 10% WBS per weight addition, but I never really knew if that was even needed. If you think about it, the genetics of these kinds of mushrooms are probably pretty fine-tuned to pure manure, so maybe that's what we should give them! So many things remain to try!
|
mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
|
|
I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
|
Its All Energy
Stranger

Registered: 02/20/18
Posts: 118
|
|
Man, all this talk about wispy mycelia being desirable really has me excited about my Jamaican myc isolate that's 2.5-3X faster than a much thicker, blob like isolate I took from the same clone. It was one of those fruits with a much thicker stem than normal, with vertical ridges and it bruised much darker than the rest. I guess it was a chimera and not a monoculture fruit.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
Just an update: okay I'm looking at a some overlaid Jamaicans now where I tried using a rather large amount of rice bran (20% per dry weight) and did not pause between the try lay and the casing of it. I've never seen this level of overlay in any of my trays, but I know others have seen this with Jamaicans before. I am pretty sure this is not just genetic but also from an overabundance of manure supplementation with rice bran.
To prove or disprove that hunch, I will rerun the exact same liquid culture and will make a new set of trays that will feature my usual 10% WBS (fortified parakeet) manure, vermiculite mix at 65% moisture as well as a two-day post-lay-pre-case recover period That is everything will be the same including the genetics except the substrate fortification and the tray recovery period.
If it's just a matter of genetics, I should get pretty much the exact same results. If, on the other hand, its a matter of genetics and the substrate supplementation being too great, I should see my usual casing development of fine strands of mycelium running through and over the casing before pinning.
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
Quote:
Blue Helix said: Just an update: okay I'm looking at a some overlaid Jamaicans now where I tried using a rather large amount of rice bran (20% per dry weight) and did not pause between the try lay and the casing of it. I've never seen this level of overlay in any of my trays, but I know others have seen this with Jamaicans before. I am pretty sure this is not just genetic but also from an overabundance of manure supplementation with rice bran.
To prove or disprove that hunch, I will rerun the exact same liquid culture and will make a new set of trays that will feature my usual 10% WBS (fortified parakeet) manure, vermiculite mix at 65% moisture as well as a two-day post-lay-pre-case recover period That is everything will be the same including the genetics except the substrate fortification and the tray recovery period.
If it's just a matter of genetics, I should get pretty much the exact same results. If, on the other hand, its a matter of genetics and the substrate supplementation being too great, I should see my usual casing development of fine strands of mycelium running through and over the casing before pinning.
Too much supplementation is something I never even thought about. I'm getting some experiments ready along those lines. But of course I threw out my jam LC moments before you showed up to even give me the idea (fuck me right?) So I have a bit of a wait before I can try anything I want to do.
|
mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
|
Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 1
#25414992 - 08/26/18 04:17 PM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asura said:
Quote:
Blue Helix said: Just an update: okay I'm looking at a some overlaid Jamaicans now where I tried using a rather large amount of rice bran (20% per dry weight) and did not pause between the try lay and the casing of it. I've never seen this level of overlay in any of my trays, but I know others have seen this with Jamaicans before. I am pretty sure this is not just genetic but also from an overabundance of manure supplementation with rice bran.
To prove or disprove that hunch, I will rerun the exact same liquid culture and will make a new set of trays that will feature my usual 10% WBS (fortified parakeet) manure, vermiculite mix at 65% moisture as well as a two-day post-lay-pre-case recover period That is everything will be the same including the genetics except the substrate fortification and the tray recovery period.
If it's just a matter of genetics, I should get pretty much the exact same results. If, on the other hand, its a matter of genetics and the substrate supplementation being too great, I should see my usual casing development of fine strands of mycelium running through and over the casing before pinning.
Too much supplementation is something I never even thought about. I'm getting some experiments ready along those lines. But of course I threw out my jam LC moments before you showed up to even give me the idea (fuck me right?) So I have a bit of a wait before I can try anything I want to do.
Plan sounds good to me. I will wait and see rather than jumping into it now.
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
Mary, if you have the materials I would say go for it. I have to grow out this pan aussie LC first and it's only been going 2 days. Might take me a week to get going.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 4
#25467891 - 09/17/18 06:15 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Tale of Two Pan Cyans grows using different substrate forumlations
Any of you looking at this may have recalled my suggestion that overlay can be reduced by changing the substrate nutritional content down. Well, I tried that and it did nothing of the sort. In fact, the opposite happened.
Substrate 1 1) Manure 80 oz 2) Rice bran 30 oz 3) water 200 oz (~1.48 gallon) 4) vermiculite 2.5 liter Final moisture content ~65% +/- 1% (ideal)
Substrate 2 1) Manure 80 oz 2) WBS 20 oz 3) water 200 oz (~1.48 gallon) 4) vermiculite 3 liter 5) gallon of wood wool (maybe aspen?) - cut into 6" or so lengths
With substrate 1 I laid in 8 x 13"9" glass trays. I cased with about 1/4" of a 50-50 style casing. The overlay was obvious by day 2 of laying the casing. I did nothing to stop it. The final yield of the first two flushes was about 35% biological efficiency at 110g dried.
The second run was the same liquid culture and amount of substrate but was cased with about 1/4" of a 50-50 style casing into 6 (rather than 8) 13"x9" glass trays. With the addition of the wood wool, the bags colonized faster and more evenly (and I do recommend it or chopped straw), but the overlay in the slightly thicker trays was even WORSE with the lower-nutrient substrate - quite a bit worse really. To counter it I kept adding casing to the overlaid regions for about 3 or 4 days until I'd worn out the substrate. By day 4 it stopped emerging from the patching, so I stopped. The overall yield was roughly half the first run at 60g, with the second flush being very poor (nearly absent).
Conclusion: From these runs, I have concluded that reducing nutrients in the substrate does not prevent overlay as I had thought. I also think the thicker substrate might have resulted in a worse overlay problem. I also conclude that patching in Pan Cyans does not work very well and may actually reduce the yield.
What to do? My inclination is that maybe I should allow the trays to recover from laying them better before casing and case a bit deeper rather than patch while keeping the thinner substrate depth. The first run had no tray recovery period before the case, but the second run had a single day, which I don't think was enough. Given how bad the overlay was in the second run, I have concluded that maybe the key here is to allow the substrate to recover for close to 3 or even 4 days after laying them to allow them a bit of time to colonize better. Another approach would be to allow the spawn bags to colonize longer, but I'm going to try the longer tray recovery.
Another observation of the second run was that mushrooms tended to be in tight dense clusters rather than evenly spread. Again, I think this is a result of the patching, so I cannot recommend for this species now (I also have heard others say that scratching doesn't work well with pan cyans either - even though it rocks for cubes). So I'll get rid of the patching because if it kills the second flush, it kills the yield too.
One thing that is promising is that if I could make the pin density across the tray surface the same as the clusters, I'd have a record-producing genetic line, so I'm going to keep playing with it.
A picture of the first run (no patching and higher substrate nutrition):

A picture of the second run (patching, lower substrate nutrition, slighly thicker substrate)

Note: that the pictures do not really show why the second run had such a lower yield. It was because there was almost no second flush, and the flush that did occur was stunted. I think the reason was the patching.
Edited by Blue Helix (09/17/18 08:52 PM)
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
Quote:
mary fairchild said: I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
Mary, I'm pretty sure we have the same Jamaicans now with the overlay issue. I've never had a gene expression that I could not deal with that centers around aggressive colonization, though, so I'm tempted to keep working with it to solve it. My theory is that if the overlay can be tamed somehow, this same genetic line could be record-breaking in terms of yield. So your best run so far was through letting it sit post tray lay for 3 days then casing then? I was thinking of giving that a try unless you have something else you've come up with. Another thing I've been considering is that these guys might have some unusual enzymes that allow them to digest the peat a little better than most. That would explain why they are growing it is so well. If that's the case, it could be better to case them with say vermiculite alone?
Edited by Blue Helix (09/22/18 10:21 AM)
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said: I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
Mary, I'm pretty sure we have the same Jamaicans now with the overlay issue. I've never had a gene expression that I could not deal with that centers around aggressive colonization, though, so I'm tempted to keep working with it to solve it. My theory is that if the overlay can be tamed somehow, this same genetic line could be record-breaking in terms of yield. So your best run so far was through letting it sit post tray lay for 3 days then casing then? I was thinking of giving that a try unless you have something else you've come up with. Another thing I've been considering is that these guys might have some unusual enzymes that allow them to digest the peat a little better than most. That would explain why they are growing it is so well. If that's the case, it could be better to case them with say vermiculite alone?
I can save you the trouble right there, BH. I did a tray with verm alone and it didn't make a difference. But I think you should try it as you have the skills.
|
Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
|
|
Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said: I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
Mary, I'm pretty sure we have the same Jamaicans now with the overlay issue. I've never had a gene expression that I could not deal with that centers around aggressive colonization, though, so I'm tempted to keep working with it to solve it. My theory is that if the overlay can be tamed somehow, this same genetic line could be record-breaking in terms of yield. So your best run so far was through letting it sit post tray lay for 3 days then casing then? I was thinking of giving that a try unless you have something else you've come up with. Another thing I've been considering is that these guys might have some unusual enzymes that allow them to digest the peat a little better than most. That would explain why they are growing it is so well. If that's the case, it could be better to case them with say vermiculite alone?
I had a lot of overlay issues with Jamaicans as well. Best I did with em was vtek, they loved vtek.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 1
#25483756 - 09/23/18 07:17 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Thanks! I'll not do that then.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
|
Back 9 years ago, I grew Jamaicans here (and a peek at what a homerun looks like):
   
Now, with that history, I'm in love (who wouldn't be with a solid pinset like that!), but as you can see, they did not overlay back then either. The mycelium was aggressive no doubt in those days, but it didn't do what these new Jamaicans are doing for me. I love the way the current Jamaicans tear through the substrate like cubes almost, but somehow they need the message "fruit now" after they colonize the casing. I just don't know how to do it either. I've even been thinking of cold shocking, but I'm not a big fan of it with tropicals like pan cyans. It just seems so overkill, but this is a special situation too. Surely someone on here has figured this out, right?!
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
I did the cold shocking. Can't remember if mary did, too. It just delayed the overlay for me. And caused lots of bruising.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 1
#25483966 - 09/23/18 08:38 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asura said: I did the cold shocking. Can't remember if mary did, too. It just delayed the overlay for me. And caused lots of bruising.
Well, let me mark that one off too then. I don't think it'll work for me if it hasn't worked for you all. This is really strange. There has to be something. I wondering if just letting the mycelium go a bit longer in the bags might help. Say it colonizes in a week (which it definitely does), but what if we let it keep going for say another week before we cased...
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
I had trays that I let consolidate for 5 days after the mycelium had completely colonized the sub. Still overlay. Maybe go longer in the hopes it will tire out?
I've been working with isolating the wispy growth on agar. Once I get a plate of nothing but wispy growth (if I do) I will grow that out and see what happens.
Edit: Oh, other stuff that was tried was knocking the overlay back using a q-tip and spraying with hydrogen peroxide 
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 1
#25484162 - 09/23/18 10:18 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asura said: I had trays that I let consolidate for 5 days after the mycelium had completely colonized the sub. Still overlay. Maybe go longer in the hopes it will tire out?
I've been working with isolating the wispy growth on agar. Once I get a plate of nothing but wispy growth (if I do) I will grow that out and see what happens.
Edit: Oh, other stuff that was tried was knocking the overlay back using a q-tip and spraying with hydrogen peroxide 
This is so crazy because I used to say Pan Cyans could NOT overlay, and until this, I never had one do it hardly. Most of them grew through the casing fully, but the growth in the casing was very wispy stuff that supported pins. This is really strange because the growth is like cubensis overlay.
|
Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 4 hours
|
|
When I first grew pans about 6 years ago, the mycelium was very light and wispy. Had a very delicate look to it. Whatever I have now is very aggressive, even on agar. Thick and cottony and it grows like a tank. A trait one might want for cubes, but not here. I am trying to isolate the wispy stuff on agar and hopefully get a decent grow.
|
Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
|
Re: PAN [Re: Asura]
#25486812 - 09/24/18 09:56 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Asura said: When I first grew pans about 6 years ago, the mycelium was very light and wispy. Had a very delicate look to it. Whatever I have now is very aggressive, even on agar. Thick and cottony and it grows like a tank. A trait one might want for cubes, but not here. I am trying to isolate the wispy stuff on agar and hopefully get a decent grow.
Well, the irony of this is that you are trying to isolate what every single pan cyans projection on agar has always been... until now. There is something strange going on with Ryche Hawkeye's Jamaicans. It's nothing bad, mind you, but it will take something to counter the overlaying tendency. I've even considered maybe drying out the casing a bit to prevent the heavy overlay. That seems very counterintuitive, but it might be what is needed here. It's almost like the mycelium just isn't getting the signal "Hey, this isn't substrate, so prepare yourself for pinning". I never seen anything like it.
|
Bart84
Newbie cultivators

Registered: 10/29/20
Posts: 33
Loc: SE Asia
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
|
|
Blue helix sorry for bringing up the old thread.. Im a newb and the fans of u and some others here, I would like to know why did my agar wedge did not growth bigger on LC, what is the possibility for the cause. My LC ingredients in 250ml water and 10g Malt extract not LME. Could that be the issue?
|
Puduwoke
mushroom enthusiastic

Registered: 06/25/17
Posts: 1,666
Last seen: 12 hours, 7 minutes
|
Re: PAN [Re: Bart84]
#27192922 - 02/08/21 01:31 AM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Why did you use so much malt?
Thats waaay to much malt.
--------------------
Trade List LAGM2021
|
Bart84
Newbie cultivators

Registered: 10/29/20
Posts: 33
Loc: SE Asia
Last seen: 2 years, 8 months
|
|
I read it somewhere even i tried cut the malt half its still not working, or the pile water are not suit in this case? Idk 😔
|
coversall
إِنْ شَاءَ ٱللَهُ



Registered: 06/06/20
Posts: 2,749
Loc: संसार
|
Re: PAN [Re: Bart84]
#27193689 - 02/08/21 12:50 PM (2 years, 11 months ago) |
|
|
Woah that was an old thread to bump.
1g LME to 500ml of water...
Check some of the active and current LC thread.
|
|