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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 2 hours
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Yeah, I found out about pan dosage the hard way. It was not fun
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Asura just messaged me showing me another overlaid casing with pans that looked like a white blob monster. Look, let me tell you how pans cyans are supposed to work. At about 10% WBS, you will get the overlay. You WANT that whispy kind of overlay at first with pan cyans, but not the uncontrollable white fluff monster from beyond like in this grow. The overlay will then sort of settle back, but it'll keep the casing secured anyway. After it settles back, you should see what appears to be salt sprinkles on the casing or something. Those are the pins, and if you got a good whispy overlay going early on, they'll be dense and grow fast. Soon you'll be flushing. The key is, though, don't make the substrate too rich. If you do, you'll overlay so heavily that you'll seal off the substrate entirely.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
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I've been gleaning information from your legendary grows for a while now.
I currently have some Jamaican prints that, when taken to fruiting, love to overlay. Your substrate recipe calls for a very small amount of WBS- especially considering that the ratios are by weight.
When you say at 10% WBS- you will get overlay- is that weight of WBS to weight of Hpoo or to all the sub components together?
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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No, I do not get the thick undesirable overlay at 10% WBS. In fact the substrate formula I've had the best luck is 10% dry weight WBS to dry weight horse manure. But if I start trying to pack a lot of nutrients in the substrate like you can do with cubensis, I can get the kind of heavy overlay that is bad.
Speaking of this, though, pan cyans often grows wispy mycelium through the casing and will totally colonize it by day 3 after being laid. That kind of wispy mycelium through and over the casing is desirable, though. When I say the "bad overlay" I mean when the mycelium grows so thick on the top that you can no longer see the casing. Those thick mats prevent pinning in that area. And yeah, I agree that in my experience, even the tendency for pan cyans to form that kind of overlay is partly genetic, although you make it worse if you use too many nutrients in the substrate, don't give the trays a chance to recover and shift gears after you lay them but before you case them, or put something nutritive like coco coir in the casing.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
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Most growers now do "Spawn to Bulk" grows where the colonized grain spawn is mixed with pasteurized substrate at ~a 1:2 VOLUME ratio of spawn to sub. Since you are doing weight ratios and grain is relatively heavy vs hpoo your grain ratio is WAY less than what people are typically doing now.
Your results show that Pans need very little grain. I guess it makes sense- they are so small they just dont need to eat as much. Have you ever tried NO WBS in the sub?
I have a batch of Jam prints that all want to overlay- We hope to try them using your sub recipe.
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Just_A_Noob
Breathing



Registered: 12/30/16
Posts: 6,809
Loc: PNW
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-------------------- Wearing a mask is bad for my physical, emotional, and spiritual health. Complying = Consent Wide Mouth 1/2 Pint No-Pour TEK TC Teks & Links
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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What you are showing is what I call the "bad" kind of overlay. I probably should just call it overlay. The reason I don't say that growing through the casing is bad is that all my best grows had it. But enough blabber; I'm going to show some of my pictures.
Look at the following Jamaican trays six days after casing:

In that picture, wouldn't you say that mycelium is growing through the casing? It is, but that resulted in this harvest:

And that kind of casing growth happened almost every time for me. The key here is, though, that the mycelium was growing through the casing, not mating over it like a fluff mycelium cloud monster out of control. And even then it would tend to grow, cover, and sort of relax back in before the pins came.
What makes the difference in how the casing colonizes? I think part of it can be the substrate itself. If it's too rich, the mycelium will tend to grow too thick into the casing. Another thing I think that helps prevent heavy overlay is allowing the trays a little time (day to three) after laying before you put the casing over. And one should never forget the moisture levels too. Too much water can cause casings mycelium to be ropey with mats on top rather than evenly through as you want.
Despite all my concerns and trying various things, I've had trays that did overlay more than I'd have liked but still produced a decent flush. In fact, I'd say when it comes to pan cyans, you're probably better off with a little overlay than an undercolonized casing because an undercolonized casing can mold pretty easily.
Okay, back to the pictures... here are a few more pictures of casings colonizing correctly with pan cyans:
and
And that led to FIVE strong flushes (it just started to get downright silly after the fifth flush so I threw the trays out because I got bored not because they contaminated - they never did). Let me just post the fifth flush, which had, by far, the fewest fruits per square inch:

Here is another grow day 3 post case showing PERFECT colonization through the casing (no overlay just through and over with wispy growth) Notice how the casing almost appears dry... well, it's not; that's just how the mycelium makes it look. NEVER allow the casing to dry out before the first flush!

Which led to this first flush:

Here are a couple more shots on day 4 post case:
 
which led to this harvest :
 
Anyway, I hope I'm getting the point across. Growing through and even over the casing is fine. Big mats over the casing is bad. You can do yourself a favor to prevent those mats by not going overboard on the nutrients in the substrate, giving the mycelium a chance to slow down after you lay the tray but before you case, making sure the casing moisture is not too wet, etc.
Edited by Blue Helix (08/25/18 09:50 PM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Mary, I have not tried a run that uses no WBS, but I think that is a good idea and, in my opinion, we should try it! You see what I want to achieve is casing mycelium penetration without excessive colonization. You WANT the casing to be colonized fully, but you don't want it to be closed off such that the mycelium treats the casing just like more substrate. The issue is that I never had trouble with a 10% WBS per weight addition, but I never really knew if that was even needed. If you think about it, the genetics of these kinds of mushrooms are probably pretty fine-tuned to pure manure, so maybe that's what we should give them! So many things remain to try!
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
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I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
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Its All Energy
Stranger

Registered: 02/20/18
Posts: 118
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Man, all this talk about wispy mycelia being desirable really has me excited about my Jamaican myc isolate that's 2.5-3X faster than a much thicker, blob like isolate I took from the same clone. It was one of those fruits with a much thicker stem than normal, with vertical ridges and it bruised much darker than the rest. I guess it was a chimera and not a monoculture fruit.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Just an update: okay I'm looking at a some overlaid Jamaicans now where I tried using a rather large amount of rice bran (20% per dry weight) and did not pause between the try lay and the casing of it. I've never seen this level of overlay in any of my trays, but I know others have seen this with Jamaicans before. I am pretty sure this is not just genetic but also from an overabundance of manure supplementation with rice bran.
To prove or disprove that hunch, I will rerun the exact same liquid culture and will make a new set of trays that will feature my usual 10% WBS (fortified parakeet) manure, vermiculite mix at 65% moisture as well as a two-day post-lay-pre-case recover period That is everything will be the same including the genetics except the substrate fortification and the tray recovery period.
If it's just a matter of genetics, I should get pretty much the exact same results. If, on the other hand, its a matter of genetics and the substrate supplementation being too great, I should see my usual casing development of fine strands of mycelium running through and over the casing before pinning.
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 2 hours
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Quote:
Blue Helix said: Just an update: okay I'm looking at a some overlaid Jamaicans now where I tried using a rather large amount of rice bran (20% per dry weight) and did not pause between the try lay and the casing of it. I've never seen this level of overlay in any of my trays, but I know others have seen this with Jamaicans before. I am pretty sure this is not just genetic but also from an overabundance of manure supplementation with rice bran.
To prove or disprove that hunch, I will rerun the exact same liquid culture and will make a new set of trays that will feature my usual 10% WBS (fortified parakeet) manure, vermiculite mix at 65% moisture as well as a two-day post-lay-pre-case recover period That is everything will be the same including the genetics except the substrate fortification and the tray recovery period.
If it's just a matter of genetics, I should get pretty much the exact same results. If, on the other hand, its a matter of genetics and the substrate supplementation being too great, I should see my usual casing development of fine strands of mycelium running through and over the casing before pinning.
Too much supplementation is something I never even thought about. I'm getting some experiments ready along those lines. But of course I threw out my jam LC moments before you showed up to even give me the idea (fuck me right?) So I have a bit of a wait before I can try anything I want to do.
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mary fairchild
Pantheist


Registered: 12/06/14
Posts: 777
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Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 1
#25414992 - 08/26/18 04:17 PM (5 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Asura said:
Quote:
Blue Helix said: Just an update: okay I'm looking at a some overlaid Jamaicans now where I tried using a rather large amount of rice bran (20% per dry weight) and did not pause between the try lay and the casing of it. I've never seen this level of overlay in any of my trays, but I know others have seen this with Jamaicans before. I am pretty sure this is not just genetic but also from an overabundance of manure supplementation with rice bran.
To prove or disprove that hunch, I will rerun the exact same liquid culture and will make a new set of trays that will feature my usual 10% WBS (fortified parakeet) manure, vermiculite mix at 65% moisture as well as a two-day post-lay-pre-case recover period That is everything will be the same including the genetics except the substrate fortification and the tray recovery period.
If it's just a matter of genetics, I should get pretty much the exact same results. If, on the other hand, its a matter of genetics and the substrate supplementation being too great, I should see my usual casing development of fine strands of mycelium running through and over the casing before pinning.
Too much supplementation is something I never even thought about. I'm getting some experiments ready along those lines. But of course I threw out my jam LC moments before you showed up to even give me the idea (fuck me right?) So I have a bit of a wait before I can try anything I want to do.
Plan sounds good to me. I will wait and see rather than jumping into it now.
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 2 hours
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Mary, if you have the materials I would say go for it. I have to grow out this pan aussie LC first and it's only been going 2 days. Might take me a week to get going.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 4
#25467891 - 09/17/18 06:15 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Tale of Two Pan Cyans grows using different substrate forumlations
Any of you looking at this may have recalled my suggestion that overlay can be reduced by changing the substrate nutritional content down. Well, I tried that and it did nothing of the sort. In fact, the opposite happened.
Substrate 1 1) Manure 80 oz 2) Rice bran 30 oz 3) water 200 oz (~1.48 gallon) 4) vermiculite 2.5 liter Final moisture content ~65% +/- 1% (ideal)
Substrate 2 1) Manure 80 oz 2) WBS 20 oz 3) water 200 oz (~1.48 gallon) 4) vermiculite 3 liter 5) gallon of wood wool (maybe aspen?) - cut into 6" or so lengths
With substrate 1 I laid in 8 x 13"9" glass trays. I cased with about 1/4" of a 50-50 style casing. The overlay was obvious by day 2 of laying the casing. I did nothing to stop it. The final yield of the first two flushes was about 35% biological efficiency at 110g dried.
The second run was the same liquid culture and amount of substrate but was cased with about 1/4" of a 50-50 style casing into 6 (rather than 8) 13"x9" glass trays. With the addition of the wood wool, the bags colonized faster and more evenly (and I do recommend it or chopped straw), but the overlay in the slightly thicker trays was even WORSE with the lower-nutrient substrate - quite a bit worse really. To counter it I kept adding casing to the overlaid regions for about 3 or 4 days until I'd worn out the substrate. By day 4 it stopped emerging from the patching, so I stopped. The overall yield was roughly half the first run at 60g, with the second flush being very poor (nearly absent).
Conclusion: From these runs, I have concluded that reducing nutrients in the substrate does not prevent overlay as I had thought. I also think the thicker substrate might have resulted in a worse overlay problem. I also conclude that patching in Pan Cyans does not work very well and may actually reduce the yield.
What to do? My inclination is that maybe I should allow the trays to recover from laying them better before casing and case a bit deeper rather than patch while keeping the thinner substrate depth. The first run had no tray recovery period before the case, but the second run had a single day, which I don't think was enough. Given how bad the overlay was in the second run, I have concluded that maybe the key here is to allow the substrate to recover for close to 3 or even 4 days after laying them to allow them a bit of time to colonize better. Another approach would be to allow the spawn bags to colonize longer, but I'm going to try the longer tray recovery.
Another observation of the second run was that mushrooms tended to be in tight dense clusters rather than evenly spread. Again, I think this is a result of the patching, so I cannot recommend for this species now (I also have heard others say that scratching doesn't work well with pan cyans either - even though it rocks for cubes). So I'll get rid of the patching because if it kills the second flush, it kills the yield too.
One thing that is promising is that if I could make the pin density across the tray surface the same as the clusters, I'd have a record-producing genetic line, so I'm going to keep playing with it.
A picture of the first run (no patching and higher substrate nutrition):

A picture of the second run (patching, lower substrate nutrition, slighly thicker substrate)

Note: that the pictures do not really show why the second run had such a lower yield. It was because there was almost no second flush, and the flush that did occur was stunted. I think the reason was the patching.
Edited by Blue Helix (09/17/18 08:52 PM)
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Quote:
mary fairchild said: I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
Mary, I'm pretty sure we have the same Jamaicans now with the overlay issue. I've never had a gene expression that I could not deal with that centers around aggressive colonization, though, so I'm tempted to keep working with it to solve it. My theory is that if the overlay can be tamed somehow, this same genetic line could be record-breaking in terms of yield. So your best run so far was through letting it sit post tray lay for 3 days then casing then? I was thinking of giving that a try unless you have something else you've come up with. Another thing I've been considering is that these guys might have some unusual enzymes that allow them to digest the peat a little better than most. That would explain why they are growing it is so well. If that's the case, it could be better to case them with say vermiculite alone?
Edited by Blue Helix (09/22/18 10:21 AM)
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Asura
Cyantist


Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 5,047
Loc: Texas
Last seen: 12 days, 2 hours
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said: I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
Mary, I'm pretty sure we have the same Jamaicans now with the overlay issue. I've never had a gene expression that I could not deal with that centers around aggressive colonization, though, so I'm tempted to keep working with it to solve it. My theory is that if the overlay can be tamed somehow, this same genetic line could be record-breaking in terms of yield. So your best run so far was through letting it sit post tray lay for 3 days then casing then? I was thinking of giving that a try unless you have something else you've come up with. Another thing I've been considering is that these guys might have some unusual enzymes that allow them to digest the peat a little better than most. That would explain why they are growing it is so well. If that's the case, it could be better to case them with say vermiculite alone?
I can save you the trouble right there, BH. I did a tray with verm alone and it didn't make a difference. But I think you should try it as you have the skills.
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Blue Helix said:
Quote:
mary fairchild said: I'm all in for giving this batch of Jams a try with no WBS. Considering how aggressive the mycelia is that may be whats necessary to switch it to fruiting mode.
BTW- if you want to give this batch a try yourself-let me know!
Mary, I'm pretty sure we have the same Jamaicans now with the overlay issue. I've never had a gene expression that I could not deal with that centers around aggressive colonization, though, so I'm tempted to keep working with it to solve it. My theory is that if the overlay can be tamed somehow, this same genetic line could be record-breaking in terms of yield. So your best run so far was through letting it sit post tray lay for 3 days then casing then? I was thinking of giving that a try unless you have something else you've come up with. Another thing I've been considering is that these guys might have some unusual enzymes that allow them to digest the peat a little better than most. That would explain why they are growing it is so well. If that's the case, it could be better to case them with say vermiculite alone?
I had a lot of overlay issues with Jamaicans as well. Best I did with em was vtek, they loved vtek.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Re: PAN [Re: Asura] 1
#25483756 - 09/23/18 07:17 PM (5 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks! I'll not do that then.
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Blue Helix
bold hand


Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1,565
Last seen: 6 months, 19 days
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Back 9 years ago, I grew Jamaicans here (and a peek at what a homerun looks like):
   
Now, with that history, I'm in love (who wouldn't be with a solid pinset like that!), but as you can see, they did not overlay back then either. The mycelium was aggressive no doubt in those days, but it didn't do what these new Jamaicans are doing for me. I love the way the current Jamaicans tear through the substrate like cubes almost, but somehow they need the message "fruit now" after they colonize the casing. I just don't know how to do it either. I've even been thinking of cold shocking, but I'm not a big fan of it with tropicals like pan cyans. It just seems so overkill, but this is a special situation too. Surely someone on here has figured this out, right?!
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