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tryptkaloids
Learner



Registered: 02/08/15
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014449 - 02/22/18 08:19 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mateah said:
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stareatclouds said:
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mushboy said: dont those use steam??(not under pressure) im not trying to be one of those 'i can get away with it' types. i know what you mean stare.
im just asking a question.
No, I'm pretty sure they use steam and pressure. Maybe you can run some experiments with different sterilization times and longer waits between inoculating? Just for the hell of it.
I know someone that will.. I´ll make very well hydrated grain so that it doesnt dry out if it stands for longer periods. I´ll do Like a canning procedure with unmodified lids so that grains come of of the PC hermetically sealed. I´ll keep the jars at a nice 25C to try to wake up whatever may be 'alive' in there. This should answer some questions at least. How do you think I should sterilize it? I´m thinking I wanna try 4h on 20PSI with a bunch of 300ml jars. I want to make sure that as much of the grain has been exposed for as high as temp as long as possible, so I can feel intuitively that NOTHING survived.
I almost want to support mushboys notion that grain can be sterilized so that it can remain 'sterile' for up to 4-5 months and be successfully inoculated and fruited after that. This is at least my notion but who the hell know before the test is done right? 
I think I´ll make me a tea and do a little WBS prep
I think it would be best to mimmick what we already do. 2h at 15-20 I would worry about botulism without ge
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: tryptkaloids]
#25014490 - 02/22/18 08:37 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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If the sterilized grain can sit un colonized in a jar for 6 weeks without showing any signs of contamintation then I don´t see how a fully colonized jar could even contam if top fruited.
My very first WBS jar was top fruited and it went 5 or 6 flushes and never showed any contam only gradually smaller and smaller flushes after the third or fourth flush and then it was spent.
This is the only photo I got from one of the later flushes, inoculated with agar wedge
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/22/18 08:39 PM)
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: cronicr]
#25014494 - 02/22/18 08:38 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
cronicr said: Whats your plan mateah
With the experiment?
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cronicr



Registered: 08/07/11
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014517 - 02/22/18 08:47 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yep
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  It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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RomeoPapa
Jackass of All Trades



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014529 - 02/22/18 08:51 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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I always try for at least 2 hours. I also have extra weight on my juggler to get it above 15psi.
Even though the temp increase is minimal my pc just sits there and doesn't make any noise when I get my burner set right.
-------------------- It's better to have it and not need it Than it is to need it and not have it.
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,887
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: RomeoPapa]
#25014586 - 02/22/18 09:11 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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I don't see your connection between sterilized jars sitting around and a colonized jar being top fruited. That's the whole point, colonize shit immediately and other stuff can't fuck with it.
I think you should sterilize 10 jars at 15 PSI with 5 different times, 2 jars in each batch. I'd go with 60 minutes as the minimum and go up 30 minutes each batch, topping out at 3 hours. I'd just run 10 each time, stow away 2, and inoculate the other 8 so I'm not spending all my time doing this shit.
Your guess is as good as mine as to how long you should wait before trying anything. Maybe with more jars in each "batch" you can inoculate one of each at timed intervals. Like after 2 weeks of sitting out, you G2G a pint into one of each. And then another at the 1 month point. And if you had extra, just leave them out as long as you want to see visible contams, although I don't think this is a very good test.
I also don't think you should use unmodified lids or just let them all sit there. They should be as close to our applications as possible unless you're going to run endospore stains or some shit. A jar sitting unperturbed without possibility of SFD fail, inoculant fail, user fail, clean inoculant doing nothing, or other demonstrable evidence that something is fucked with the grains isn't very helpful to us. You can't always eyeball contamination. I've had my fair share of jars that have healthy mycelium, but stall out completely with no visible growth on any of the grains.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: cronicr] 1
#25014597 - 02/22/18 09:14 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well I guess my plan is to find out how long that window is before endospores come back to life.
I mostly want to understand more what makes a tub trich out even when spawned with clean spawn. Is it those endospores that awakened after a certain time or is it something else?
If it is the endospores then it should be possible to test this out. If the uncolonized grain jars can survive 2 months then colonized they should theoretically be invincible for 2 months, so one should be able to go to flush 3 or 4 consistently with bulk.
Perhaps I´m not clear about something in that case just remind me what I have missed. And also I kind of want to confirm to myself that some of the info here is true or not and only way I can see that for myself is if I do my own experiments. I´m not trying to say I don´t trust more experienced growers who say one thing, but to be honest the more I read the more I realize that a lot of 'facts' are really just theories and many of these theories don´t have any studies to confirm them. I´m not talking about anything specific I´m just describing my mentality. I´m gonna learn faster by doing everything myself then by reading what others have done and trying to remember it if that makes sense
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Quote:
stareatclouds said: I don't see your connection between sterilized jars sitting around and a colonized jar being top fruited. That's the whole point, colonize shit immediately and other stuff can't fuck with it.
If a uncolonized grain jar can be safe for 6 weeks then it should be immortal after being fully clonized. (if inoculated right away) If an un colonized grain jar shows signs of contams bouncing back after 3 weeks, then if you inoculate with an agar wedge, yeah you do the math... This is why it is important to me to know how many weeks my sterilized grain can sit before the stuff starts to awaken.
Quote:
stareatclouds said: I think you should sterilize 10 jars at 15 PSI with 5 different times, 2 jars in each batch. I'd go with 60 minutes as the minimum and go up 30 minutes each batch, topping out at 3 hours. I'd just run 10 each time, stow away 2, and inoculate the other 8 so I'm not spending all my time doing this shit.
This seems reasonable, 15 PSI starting at 45,60,90,120, and 180min. I will probably compliment this experiment with another one later on, I feel the data from both tests will compliment each other and give a clearer insight.
Quote:
stareatclouds said: Your guess is as good as mine as to how long you should wait before trying anything. Maybe with more jars in each "batch" you can inoculate one of each at timed intervals. Like after 2 weeks of sitting out, you G2G a pint into one of each. And then another at the 1 month point. And if you had extra, just leave them out as long as you want to see visible contams, although I don't think this is a very good test.
I also don't think you should use unmodified lids or just let them all sit there. They should be as close to our applications as possible unless you're going to run endospore stains or some shit. A jar sitting unperturbed without possibility of SFD fail, inoculant fail, user fail, clean inoculant doing nothing, or other demonstrable evidence that something is fucked with the grains isn't very helpful to us. You can't always eyeball contamination. I've had my fair share of jars that have healthy mycelium, but stall out completely with no visible growth on any of the grains.
As I said I think it will be helpful to me to know after how long time these contams supposedly bounce back, and I explicitly don´t want my grower errors to affect these results, becuase I´m doing it for a reason as I said.
But you are totally right about this test shoul later be complimented with a similar one with GE filters and those grains will be inoculated later. This topic can not be covered by the same blanket test hehe so I´m counting on several different methods to extract some useful data.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/22/18 09:26 PM)
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,887
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014679 - 02/22/18 09:49 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
This is why it is important to me to know how many weeks my sterilized grain can sit before the stuff starts to awaken.
Right, and I'm saying I don't think this an accurate test for grain viability/sterility. You aren't going to suddenly see an explosion of trichoderma with a sealed off jar, even if there are bacterial endospores present. And unless I'm mistaken, you can't just stare at a jar and always see bacteria, especially not endospore production. There isn't just one type of contamination overall and more importantly, there's not a specific number or calculable threshold for "enough bacteria to overtake my jars." It's not even JUST endospores leftover that can fuck shit up. I'm sure grains drying out lessens viability, too.
I guess what I'm asking is, what are we trying to determine? If we're truly sterilizing everything, including all bacterial endospores? Because if so, I don't think an eye test is sufficient. Or are we trying to see how long can grain sit out and remain viable under normal conditions for the at-home cultivator?
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Quote:
Or are we trying to see how long can grain sit out and remain viable under normal conditions for the at-home cultivator?
thats what id like to know and i know for me, its a few months. but they do loose performance because(i think) they dry out.
Edited by mushboy (02/22/18 10:09 PM)
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: stareatclouds] 1
#25014718 - 02/22/18 10:10 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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I honestly don´t have a clear objective in mind, I´m just really curious about what causes contams in later flushes. I understand that the colony gets weaker and contams take over. From my experience they seem to spontaneously spring up from the grain itself and then start to colonize the rest of the substrate. I´m talking about green molds now specifically.
If those green molds are endospores that are awakening after 4 weeks inside the grain then different sterilization times will have different contamination times as well. If the green eminates from another source than the inside of the grain then I will pursue inquiry in that direction instead. But for now I would like to see what happens with grain after being sterilized for 45min at 15 PSI and left alone, and compare that to the other sterilization times.
And I will on purpose make the grain over hydrated so that they still remain moist even after several months.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014723 - 02/22/18 10:13 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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just make some jars like normal and let em sit. stash em somewhere. make more and keep it rolling.
check back each month IME, unless the filter or the prep is crap they should be fine.(to a degree)
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tryptkaloids
Learner



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014726 - 02/22/18 10:14 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Trich is coming from the air and germinating on the myc itself. Its consuming it. They don't produce endospore AFAIK
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: tryptkaloids]
#25014728 - 02/22/18 10:16 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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That doesnt sound right.. Trich is everywhere in the air, if it was eating myc no BRF cake would ever survive the green
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tryptkaloids
Learner



Registered: 02/08/15
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014738 - 02/22/18 10:18 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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It takes time. Healthy myc has good defence mechanisms. After its done it's job and reproduced it has no need for this protection. It wants to die because it can't live forever and it knows this so it gives us mushrooms
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
Loc: where?
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: tryptkaloids]
#25014752 - 02/22/18 10:26 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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damn.
then after the network dies, we toss it and eat the dried offerings? we suck. im glad ham has the recycle spent cubes to oysters write up..
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tryptkaloids
Learner



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
#25014757 - 02/22/18 10:28 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Naw, it's a means to an end. They aren't making the mushrooms to be saved, they are making them to produce spores and repopulate. The mushrooms being highly edible only helps them spread their genes farther. Its a win win
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: tryptkaloids]
#25014761 - 02/22/18 10:30 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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I´m sipping on a 10g tea right now so I might fall out of this conversation at some point, but yo Trypts, are you really saying that trich germinates on top of myc after the first or second flush and that´s why a tub turns green? I was almost certain that it in most cases had to do with dirty spawn 
Like if it turns green before the first flush it is definitely in the spawn I think we can all agree to that, but when it appears after the first or second flush then I suppose what you say seems plausible. At the other hand I hear growers say trich eatc myc is super aggressive, and at times I hear that trich is not that aggressive at all and does not eat myc. I really don´t know who to trust or what to listen to.
It´s not that I don´t believe that what you say is true, it seems plausible to me but then again I don´t feel very confident yet when it comes to infections of kinds.
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tryptkaloids
Learner



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25014775 - 02/22/18 10:35 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm pretty sure actual trichodermas is predatory and eats anything it can, including other organisms. Someone with a better understanding could chime in (i hope they come make me look a fool) and other green molds like aspergillus doesnt and myc can combat it
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: tryptkaloids]
#25014785 - 02/22/18 10:39 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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I snapped these pics a few days ago suddenly I had green mold on ALL my plates lol, I thnk it was from pouring, I bumbed the stack several times and even poured agar on the side of the stack of petris. Really retarded pouring session haha.

But got me thinking, are all of these greens the one and the same or is this both asp and trich? There is another one white mold in one ape germination plate.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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