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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
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That´s pretty much what happens mushboy. Sucess rate of colonizing BRF cakes is the airy medium which gives the myc a big edge over bacteria thus myc 'wins' the cake. When a BRF cake is grated into once again an airy medium it will colonize a field capacity bulk substrates in 3 days as is the case for me most of the time and for other growers as well. Between 3-5 days max. If you have mushy BRF noodles mixed with coir that´s on the wet side then you´re in a whole other ballpark. Now the bacteria has a time to bounce back, and the more severe the bacterial infection the more the bulk sub will suffer.
Stare, the whole point behind the success with BRF to bulk is that new growers should be able to inoculate with bacterial spore solution and still have pretty consistent results with spawning to bulk. Fruiting miniature substrates such as BRF cakes inside a SGFC is pretty much doomed to be a not success for a new grower. BRF to bulk is a method that I strongly believe in and a method that can take a complete noob from sporesyringes straight to bulk grows with very good results, much better than fruited as cakes inside SGFC.
I have never said that the BRF spawn dies inside the bulk substrate, but with bacterial spawn you always need to give it all the edges in can get. It went sount for me with this method only once, and that was the first time I tried dunking the cakes before spawning. Another member had the same thing happen to him, mushroomnate if I´m not mistaken, but otherwise he has always had success with this method when not dunking.
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stareatclouds said: If this happened to you, I'd say it's more likely because most of your grows are bacterial, no offense.
I have explained to you several times before that I was aware that my WBS spawn was bacterial by I still spawned it because I noticed that I get at least an ounce per qt spawn on first flush with this spawn. I had to start over with new germination plates because of hidden contams on the old plates and I said latest a few days ago that I´m not gonna sit on my hands until I get clean new plates, I´m still gonna continue to slurry the last few BRF cakes in the mean time. You may not agree with my way of doing things but it doesn´t help our communication if you keep bringing this up after I explain it several times already no offense
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Mateah said: Idk if this helps Stare but I´m doing an experiment right now with small shoeboxes and very small substrates. Somehow I land exactly on the 30g dry no matter what size the substrate is. These small substrates are with 200ml WBS and 600ml coir inside 5L shoeboxes.
I´m at the end of my bacterial BRF cakes that I´ve been using as spawn so there is still no shortage of freaks in my tubs. Of course I have a delightful variety of cultures on agar right now that are getting cleaned up, but I´m not gonna sit on my hand until then 
These are the 8 shoeboxes I harvested an hour ago, so that´s 1.6L spawn that´s about two myco quart and I´m counting on easily reaching and maybe going over the 30g dry standard. I have actually gone over with most of the bacterial tubs so far.
   
   
So the total volume of each substrates is 800ml. They are no more than 2cm thick. Looks like this from profile:

With the previous 5 I harvested a few days ago averaged to exactly 30g. These boxes that I harvested today felt like at least 1kg so I´m assuming that I will end up with easily 60g when they dry up, I can update tomorrow when I weigh them. This is todays harvest from the 8 shoeboxes:

Edit for clarification, I´m using BRF cakes as slurry inoculant for WBS, not BRF cakes as spawn to bulk.
Looks like this

And I love your style of informative posts 
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stareatclouds said:
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flowstate said: I've made BRF cakes with a verm layer. My cakes are pretty well on their way to being colonized. I am unclear on whether or not the very layer needs to colonize. It obviously doesn't colonize as well as the BRF but there does seem to be growth on it.
Additionally, my cakes are in 1/2 pints and I don't know if I didn't fill them up enough or if the shrinkage is normal but my cakes seem to be quite small. About an inch of cake and maybe half inch of verm. I would say that the BRF is pretty well colonized.
I'm not sure what to do with my verm layer once I'm ready to birth.
The verm layer is specifically to provide a non-nutritious barrier between the outside air and the nutrient-rich substrate below. This way, if anything falls through your lid holes, they won't get to the BRF mix and will have trouble germinating on verm. The myc can grow up to the verm and eat a bit, but they don't need to and it's not a big deal either way. It likely won't.
Once you birth the cakes at 100% and after consolidation, you wipe off the verm layer while rinsing it under a sink. Again, it's the barrier that caught dirty stuff from the air, so just wipe it off and toss it.
I'd need pictures of your cakes. But I think they should be bigger than 1" of sub, from what I remember. They will shrink a bit though due to the mycelium eating the substrate. It's possible the verm barrier fell down the sides as it shrunk and is making the sub look shorter.
Keep up the good work. You're doing lots of stuff. It's fun, isn't it? I got started doing tons of shit at once and despite a few people being discouraging at the workload, I've found it to be insanely helpful to my cultivation knowledge.
Also, unless you're isolating a monoculture on agar (literally a single strain of dikaryotic mycelium) you're not cleaning up strains, so to speak. A strain is 2 spores that germinate and do the fungal version of sex, joining together via clamp connections. A plate you dropped spores to (whether through syringe or print) will have thousands of strains present. And something like "Albino A+" or "Treasure Coast" is called a "variety" (of Psilocybe cubensis).
Happy growing, bro! Glad to have you here!
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/19/18 06:20 PM)
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flowstate
Stranger
Registered: 01/03/18
Posts: 12
Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006386 - 02/19/18 06:23 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thanks for the insight fellas.
I've:
-ziploc'd 1 cake in the jar (had a wetspot from day 1/looks&smells fine...we'll see)
-dunked 4 cakes, which i will roll in verm and make a FC
-Bucket Tek'd some coir and I will grate and spawn 4 cakes to 2 mini tubs
-Got 20 healthy Grain jars colonizing
Something will work out nicely
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: flowstate]
#25006398 - 02/19/18 06:27 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Crumbling BRF cakes with fingers can work for other methods of fruiting but if you´re gonna spawn 240ml BRF (flour) to 2qt of coir you will need all the inoculation points you can get. 
Did you check out the thread I posted about BRF to bulk?
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/19/18 06:28 PM)
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 32,281
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006410 - 02/19/18 06:33 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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meteah, i cant find your cheese grater cake tek
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006443 - 02/19/18 06:46 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Most of my BRF to bulk were in 2016, but funny you should mention it. I have8 cakes fully colonized yesterday and I´ve been meaning to use them in a BRF to bulk writeup.
Seeing how the BRF to bulk thread has exploded, my posts in that thread are enough good info be crammed in a thread of it´s own. Hopefully in a few weeks that thread will be up 
By the way, please everyone that works with grain please take this poll https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25006429#25006429
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/19/18 06:46 PM)
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mushboy
modboy



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006445 - 02/19/18 06:48 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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i am a bad person to poll with ms to grains because it always went to shit for me.
im bias.
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flowstate
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Registered: 01/03/18
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Last seen: 5 years, 9 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006447 - 02/19/18 06:49 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Mateah said: Crumbling BRF cakes with fingers can work for other methods of fruiting but if you´re gonna spawn 240ml BRF (flour) to 2qt of coir you will need all the inoculation points you can get. 
Did you check out the thread I posted about BRF to bulk?
Yeah man I've read that. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I didn't plan on using my fingers? Excuse my ignorance. I had planned on using a small tub similar to the first picture in that thread, maybe a little smaller. Something like 2 cakes grated to 1 pint of coir. I realize I have been fucking up terminology, apologies for being unclear. If there's anything obvious I'm missing, I'm sorry for spamming this thread.
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mushboy
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Registered: 04/24/05
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: flowstate]
#25006452 - 02/19/18 06:52 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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its the perfect thread for spam discussions imo 
crumbling with your hands will still leave kinda large chunks of cake, you want something that looks like a bag of shredded cheese youd buy at the market.
that way the cake can colonize the bulk mixture quicker and give you more shrooms quicker!!!(in theory)
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mushboy
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
#25006455 - 02/19/18 06:54 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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these were done with large chunks of cakes just covered in a thick layer of coco. really basic shit.

if i did a better job mixing it up and doing proper ratios, id probably would of had better/more even pin sets.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: flowstate]
#25006462 - 02/19/18 06:58 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
flowstate said:
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Mateah said: Crumbling BRF cakes with fingers can work for other methods of fruiting but if you´re gonna spawn 240ml BRF (flour) to 2qt of coir you will need all the inoculation points you can get. 
Did you check out the thread I posted about BRF to bulk?
Yeah man I've read that. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I didn't plan on using my fingers? Excuse my ignorance. I had planned on using a small tub similar to the first picture in that thread, maybe a little smaller. Something like 2 cakes grated to 1 pint of coir. I realize I have been fucking up terminology, apologies for being unclear. If there's anything obvious I'm missing, I'm sorry for spamming this thread.
I mentioned that because Stare said that you could crumble the cakes but I would not advise that for BRF to bulk, just making sure you do it the correct way 
Just post about it in the other thread that is meant for these discusions, it will be more at home there.
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mushboy said: i am a bad person to poll with ms to grains because it always went to shit for me.
im bias.
The poll isnt about MS to bulk, it´s about how much spawn you use and what kind of grain you work with. Take the poll
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/19/18 07:00 PM)
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,887
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
#25006463 - 02/19/18 07:00 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Stare, the whole point behind the success with BRF to bulk is that new growers should be able to inoculate with bacterial spore solution and still have pretty consistent results with spawning to bulk. Fruiting miniature substrates such as BRF cakes inside a SGFC is pretty much doomed to be a not success for a new grower.

It seems like a lot of your goals are to grow things with bacterial spawn in mind. I've seen you make mention of stuff like this more than a few times. That's not a view I I agree with. That's why I brought up your bacterial issues, not to be rude or hurtful. I just think it's more likely your grow failed due to something other than dunking a cake.
BRF to bulk is to get a bulk-size yield in a tub without needing a pressure cooker. You might use it to inoculate with bacterial spore solution, but that's not a given. And I hugely disagree that PF Tek is pretty much doomed to fail. No clue where you're getting that or that all syringes are inherently bacterial. Spores aren't clean, but properly made syringes from trusted vendors are very reliable, IME.
Perhaps I'm misreading your post, but you seem to think fruiting cakes in a SGFC is more likely to fail than shredding them to another substrate? That doesn't make sense.
I think it's time I dust off my wide-mouth 1/2 pints.
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mushboy
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Quote:
stareatclouds said: It seems like a lot of your goals are to grow things with bacterial spawn in mind. I've seen you make mention of stuff like this more than a few times. That's not a view I I agree with..
i think meteah is trying to educate people who may or may not know they have bacterial issues. that requires going balls deep with your own garbage spawn and sharing the results. which we have all made imo.

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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,887
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
#25006510 - 02/19/18 07:24 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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Right, but you can't just apply your own mindset to a cultivation technique that predates you. Inoculating a bulk sub with BRF cakes is not so people can get bulk grows with contaminated subs (which isn't a one-size-fits-all blanket anyway) and PF Tek is not pretty much doomed to fail for a new grower. If he means his own information and guides are for bacterial spawning, then yeah alright, but he should be more clear, IMO.
Fruiting cakes in a SGFC is proven and reliable method of cultivation. I did 24 cakes and 23 colonized without contamination and I was as new as it gets.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
Stare, the whole point behind the success with BRF to bulk is that new growers should be able to inoculate with bacterial spore solution and still have pretty consistent results with spawning to bulk. Fruiting miniature substrates such as BRF cakes inside a SGFC is pretty much doomed to be a not success for a new grower.

It seems like a lot of your goals are to grow things with bacterial spawn in mind.
No my goal is to make sure that complete beginners get some fruits after their effort of buying syringes and making BRF cakes. The more I talk to noobs that do this method the more I realize how bad success rate noobs are having with fruiting BRF cakes inside SGFC. The data I gathered today says that noobs get on average 70gwet per cake spawned per flush. And these are consistent results. Just read trough this whole thread and you will see what new growers say about this.
And once again you are implying that my goals are to grow bacterial grows. How many times do I have to explain the same thing to you Stare? You have gotten the same explanation twice on this page alone.
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stareatclouds said:
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I've seen you make mention of stuff like this more than a few times. That's not a view I I agree with. That's why I brought up your bacterial issues, not to be rude or hurtful. I just think it's more likely your grow failed due to something other than dunking a cake.
That´s up to you do speculate about for yourself why you think the dunked cakes didnt make it, the rest of the cakes that I didn´t dunk produced, and they were all inoculated with the same LI..
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stareatclouds said: BRF to bulk is to get a bulk-size yield in a tub without needing a pressure cooker. You might use it to inoculate with bacterial spore solution, but that's not a given. And I hugely disagree that PF Tek is pretty much doomed to fail. No clue where you're getting that or that all syringes are inherently bacterial. Spores aren't clean, but properly made syringes from trusted vendors are very reliable, IME.
An average Spore solution should be regarded as bacterial even if ever so slightly simply because of the sheer amount of vendors out there. But this is not the point. I advise BRF to bulk because even a total noob can go from spore syringes to successful bulk yield grow after grow after grow, and the results will be very consistent as the statistics in the BRF to bulk thread suggest.
Another thing that I often say is most growers will eventually go over to growing bulk with grain, so what better opportunity to practice a bulk grow or two with success in the mean time one gathers agar work and clean cultures? BRF to bulk is a gift from god to new growers, I´m just trying to be the ambassador and to spread the good word on how new growers can have better success with their Pf Tek cakes.
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stareatclouds said: And I hugely disagree that PF Tek is pretty much doomed to fail.
I didn´t say Pf Tek is pretty much doomed to fail, I said new growers will put a lot of time and effort into Pf just to see a few puny fruits and dried out blue cakes in the SGFC. Or overly saturated cakes that won´t pin. Spawning to bulk is a much safer way to get fruits that fruiting as cakes in the SGFC.
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stareatclouds said: I think it's time I dust off my wide-mouth 1/2 pints.
I´ll look forward to seeing more BRF grows, I will do some too, borth spawning to bulk and fruiting as cakes.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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mushboy
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Registered: 04/24/05
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Quote:
stareatclouds said: you can't just apply your own mindset to a cultivation technique that predates you
sure you can. thats how i do culture work.
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tryptkaloids
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006523 - 02/19/18 07:32 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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When I did cakes I followed the recipe and it doesn't fill the sgfc so it dries out. The sgfc is made to be filled
-------------------- "Remember, kids, the difference between science and screwing around is writing it down" -adam savage Flowchart for Recommended plan of action. Learn the tried and true way to grow mushrooms Use the Damn search engine After you know what you're doing, take a break Pick a book, Make some chips! Josex said:Don't take the site seriously bro, ain't worth it.
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
#25006532 - 02/19/18 07:35 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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SGFC has way too many holes for it to be a good FC for 200ml substrates that are completely unprotected and have a HUGE surface area compared to the amount of water they carry. SGFC is about the worst FC for a beginner and 1/2 pint cakes... of course in my opinion
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (02/20/18 02:51 AM)
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mushboy
modboy



Registered: 04/24/05
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006537 - 02/19/18 07:37 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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add IMO or people will hate on you!
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,887
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
#25006546 - 02/19/18 07:41 PM (5 years, 11 months ago) |
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You're changing what you originally said with each post. First the point behind a successful BRF to bulk grow is that new growers can inoculate with bacterial solution. Now you're referencing the average weights. Right, I said the idea behind BRF to bulk is to get bulk yield without needing a pressure cooker. It has nothing to do with bacterial subs or inoculant. You're calling a spore syringe "bacterial solution" because of the "sheer amount of vendors out there." Uh, right.
I don't think you're trying to grow bacteria, but you're constantly trying to figure out ways to make bacteria a success, which is ass backwards, IMO. Do whatever works out for you, for sure, but it's frustrating that you're seemingly spending your time recommending the best way to patch over bacteria instead of focusing on avoiding it in the first place. Just my opinion, but learning to do shit the right way and getting fruits is optimal and what the site is about (for me, at least).
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I didn´t say Pf Tek is pretty much doomed to fail, I said new growers will put a lot of time and effort into Pf just to see a few puny fruits and dried out blue cakes in the SGFC. Or overly saturated cakes that won´t pin.
No, you didn't. You said it's, "pretty much doomed to be a not success for a new grower" which is a fail. Getting fruits is a success. You're changing what you said after the fact. But if you want to change it to, "the yields are smaller than BRF to bulk" then sure, since that's what it's for.
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Spawning to bulk is a much safer way to get fruits that fruiting as cakes in the SGFC.
Yeah, I don't agree. But to each their own.
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An average Spore solution should be regarded as bacterial even if ever so slightly simply because of the sheer amount of vendors out there.
Yeah, that doesn't make sense. And like I said, buying syringes from trusted vendors are pretty reliable.
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?



Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 9,887
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Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree. There's nothing beneficial about this conversion at this point and I don't want anyone to incorrectly assume BRF to bulk or that standard PF Tek are bad methods of cultivation.
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