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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911075 - 01/13/18 02:31 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
Just throwing this out there. I started to do some research on endospores and found out that there are in fact some endospores that can withstand the 250f temp we get when PC'n. I also found out that there is bacteria smaller, like WAY smaller than 0.2 microns. So our filters are not 100% capable of filtering everything and our PC may not be killing everything. I tried researching what bacteria is found on grains but found next to no info. It is possible that oats just happen to have a bacteria endospore on them, that could survive the 250f temp of our PC.



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagibacter_ubique thats generally regarded at the smallest bacterium. Which is filtered out by 0.3 micron hepa filters. 0.3 microns That's the test size used in DOP tests. Hepa filters have the hardest time capturing particles in the 0.3micron range. They actually capture smaller and larger particles more efficiently. 0.3 is the most penetration prone size.


Filtering liquids requires 0.22 or 0.2 micron filters. For sterile filtration

Some endospores will survive 15m at 250. These extremophiles wouldn't ever germinate on grain or in any conditions we ever encounter. So they're no concern. All the endospores that actually would germinate on grain are easy to kill


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InvisiblemushboyMDiscord
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911077 - 01/13/18 02:33 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

in those cases id assume its me and either switch grains or keep trying until i get it right.

my 'issues' with oats went away after i realized how dry they need to be pre loading. i was used to soaked wbs. which you can load wet as fuck.

i think most people are not drying them enough. maybe some endospores may survive?
that explains the occasional jar or two. not the whole batch of potentially poorly prepped oats.

i even pced oats with weevels in it. fuck it.

thats what in here..


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
    #24911078 - 01/13/18 02:34 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:

there's a few species that take stupid long times to kill at 15psi. they're anaerobic extremophiles that are hard to germinate in the lab and if for some reason where in your grain wouldn't fucking matter in the least anyway. all the ones that would pose a risk to us if they did germinate and could germinate die at 15psi no problem. but grain is harder to sterilize than liquids hence the long times. if you think your grains are culprit because of bacteria just try 15-30m longer and venting 5-10m longer than you normally do.




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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24911081 - 01/13/18 02:35 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

These are rod shaped and the 1st I cam upon jus now, but are smaller.

The Spirochetes contain very thin bacteria with some species having cell diameters of about 0.1 to 0.15 µm that are at least 5 to 6 µm in length.

What I am trying to get at, is many of us probably do not fully understand our enemy and are fucking up the sterilization process.

I will try to find the original info I found.

@ Mush, I to use to make my oats way to set wet. Less water and things have gotten better.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911083 - 01/13/18 02:37 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

:takingnotes:


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911090 - 01/13/18 02:40 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

5-6 microns in length is easily captured even if the dimensions are smaller in one plane.

that's like saying hair can get through a filter if it threads itself in like a needle.


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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24911097 - 01/13/18 02:42 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

And it can in rare occasions. That's like trying to say we can not fit through a door way because, if put on our sides, we are to big to go through. That does NOT mean it will happen BUT if they can fit one way it is a legit possibility.


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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911106 - 01/13/18 02:45 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Small enough to fit through filters and found in soil. Who knows what is still to be found. Who knows what COULD end up on our grains. They exist, but would be ever encounter them? :shrug:

Ultramicrobacteria are bacteria that are smaller than 0.1 μm3 under all growth conditions[1][2][3]. This term was coined in 1981, to refer to cocci in seawater that were less than 0.3 μm in diameter.[4] These cells have also been recovered from soil and appeared to be a mixture of Gram-positive, Gram-negative and cell wall lacking species


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911107 - 01/13/18 02:47 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

maybe if you were specifically working with that organism and had an astronomical load of them a couple could pass. thankfully these extreme examples are nothing that is a concern to us and all the stuff that is is easily filtered out by hepa filters. you're talking about things that even when found are hard to grow in a laboratory giving them everything they want.

Ultramicrobacteria gets in and has no bacteria to parasitize 


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911111 - 01/13/18 02:48 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

@TheMadHatter420.

So you are able to get endospores in a visible state and test methods to kill or damage them?


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24911116 - 01/13/18 02:50 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

I guess I should have said jar filters. Makes me wonder about micropore tape on grain jar lids. How big do those pores measure? They are not true "micro" pore, they are just to small to see with our eyes.

My point is maybe many of us misunderstand our enemy. Maybe you do, but how many of us have not fully grasped what it is we are fighting against. Maybe some of us follow practices, or use things that does not truly keep these badies away.

@ ferather I never said I could get endospores and test them. I have been trying to look into what actual research has been done.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911120 - 01/13/18 02:53 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Bummer!

I was hoping you could test various methods to kill anything found in grains.

That would be a write-up I would love to read.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911122 - 01/13/18 02:55 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

micropore tape is gigantic.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=2&Number=13642707&fpart=1&PHPSESSID=

filters don't necessarily act like a sieve though.

Quote:

The air space between HEPA filter fibres is typically much greater than 0.3 μm. The common assumption that a HEPA filter acts like a sieve where particles smaller than the largest opening can pass through is incorrect and impractical. Unlike membrane filters at this pore size, where particles as wide as the largest opening or distance between fibres can not pass in between them at all, HEPA filters are designed to target much smaller pollutants and particles. These particles are trapped (they stick to a fibre) through a combination of the following three mechanisms:

Interception
    where particles following a line of flow in the air stream come within one radius of a fibre and adhere to it.
Impaction
    where larger particles are unable to avoid fibres by following the curving contours of the air stream and are forced to embed in one of them directly; this effect increases with diminishing fibre separation and higher air flow velocity.
Diffusion
    an enhancing mechanism that is a result of the collision with gas molecules by the smallest particles, especially those below 0.1 µm in diameter, which are thereby impeded and delayed in their path through the filter; this behaviour is similar to Brownian motion and raises the probability that a particle will be stopped by either of the two mechanisms above; this mechanism becomes dominant at lower air flow velocities.

Diffusion predominates below the 0.1 μm diameter particle size. Impaction and interception predominate above 0.4 μm. [6] In between, near the most penetrating particle size (MPPS) 0.21 μm, both diffusion and interception are comparatively inefficient.[7] Because this is the weakest point in the filter's performance, the HEPA specifications use the retention of particles near this size (0.3 μm) to classify the filter.[6] However it is possible for particles smaller than the MPPS to not have filtering efficiency greater than that of the MPPS. This is due to the fact that these particles can act as nucleation sites for mostly condensation and form particles near the MPPS.[




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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24911127 - 01/13/18 02:57 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Just pointing out that I could also be miss interpreting information I have found. That is why I like to discuss things and I try to have an open mind. Think about all the shit that people thought was true 10 years ago, but we now know is BS in this hobby. Imagine what another 10 years may bring.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24911135 - 01/13/18 03:02 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

exactly, I've thought these same things especially working in QA with real world problems like tossing out 6200 gallons of beer more than a few times.


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24911233 - 01/13/18 03:52 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

If you somehow could quantify FAE inside a SGFC and compare to that of a tub with flipped lid. How many times more FAE is created inside a SGFC  do you think? (I will just assume SGFC provides more air exchange than a un-mod tub with flipped lid for the sake of this post)

My plan is to build another SGFC but with half as many holes and holes half the size. What are your thoughts about this? My thoughts are that the nr one problem growers are having with a SGFC setup is that cakes dry out too quickly, or that cakes are overly misted. But what if the FAE is no issue at all and that by raising the humidity in the chamber the results with cakes will improve?

Just the sheer surface area of short 1/2 pint cakes is terrifying to think about when one considers how little water there is in a cake to begin with. They are practically designed to dry out fast, tho the verm layer help out a lot of course, but it also gets colonized or falls off and at some point the cakes start drying out too much because of too much exposed mycelium. But I wonder how cakes would behave in this other SGFC I´m planning to do, I guess we´ll see soon...


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InvisibleLizardWizard
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Mateja]
    #24911275 - 01/13/18 04:08 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

I think you'd end up losing too much in the evaporation field; Evaporation can be a bitch, but it's also needed for a healthy shroomy life cycle. I'm thinking the standard SGFC will work better.


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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24911343 - 01/13/18 04:40 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
exactly, I've thought these same things especially working in QA with real world problems like tossing out 6200 gallons of beer more than a few times.





BEER ABUSE!!!

:badmanthisfeels:


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InvisibleMateja
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: LizardWizard]
    #24911372 - 01/13/18 04:58 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

LizardWizard said:
I think you'd end up losing too much in the evaporation field; Evaporation can be a bitch, but it's also needed for a healthy shroomy life cycle. I'm thinking the standard SGFC will work better.



Thanks for your input. I personally feel that small cakes are evaporating too fast, and we know that larger substrates that evaporate off very slowly still produce great pinsets. I would equate a small cake inside a SGFC to a bulk substrate inside a tub fruited with the lid off in terms of moisture loss :shrug: do you agree with this guys or not


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Offlinetombosley8
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: mushboy]
    #24911418 - 01/13/18 05:26 PM (6 years, 17 days ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
Its in the spawn tho.  Mold wont germinate on coco alone.  Unless its introduced. 

If straight coir molded then id dig the theory of quickly colonizing coir to avoid it contaming...the 'window' but it doesnt so i wont.



every batch of coir I make will mold in the bucket after 8-11 days almost everytime.

I've tried with multiple brands of coir and that is always the result.

Coir can mold and will given the right/wrong conditions.

All coir should be used within a day or two of bucketing IMO. ibviously the muc could still outrun mold in that week window but better safe than sorry.

I think I was careless about this too often leading to mold in my tubs and in casing layers that would normally get eaten up by myc in a couple days before the mold could germinate...

also I think I was careless about field capacity and overhydrating coir leading to the issues you guys are describing.

slow colonization and bringing out the worst of a slightly bacterial situation.

I'm on a very long and slow moving journey to be a reliable clean spawn producer but I know I'll get there. 'Tis about the journey, right? :dogpipe:


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Edited by tombosley8 (01/13/18 05:31 PM)


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