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QM33
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Registered: 04/09/20
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Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow]
#27675132 - 02/27/22 07:24 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Ya I mean if you get your water from the city... We're we talking about sterilizing potable water or water? Water. Maybe don't go around telling people that boiling water sterilizes it, when it doesn't, it simply makes it just that, potable "po·ta·ble /ˈpōdəb(ə)l/ Learn to pronounce adjectiveFORMAL safe to drink; drinkable."
And sadly bro, my brotha, who I've taken a good amount of info from, you do need more research if you think 212 degree water sterilizes anything in any given amount of time, by the definition of sterile.
If that's what you consider sterile you would probably have the same result rinsing it with alcohol.
Sterile and SAL are bound by definition. Your only muddying your understanding of sterile.
And not only thermophiles,more so endospore.
-------------------- OmManiPadmeHum,OmManiPadmeHum, OmManiPadMeHum... There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, there are also unknown unknowns. With great privilege comes great responsibility.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Adas] 1
#27675133 - 02/27/22 07:28 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Adas said: For steaming to be effective you need to run it for like 8 hours. Which is energy-intensive to say the least.
Yes if you're steaming grains, not water.
@forrester- dude fahts steamer is NOT above 212F. It cant be since it's not under pressure and it releases into atmospheric conditions. That steam is exiting his tube at 212 just like boiling water. Sounds like you all are confused about the difference between grains and water, and atmospheric pressures.
I made a thread where I turned my cooker into a steam pasteurizer doing the exact same thing as faht, connecting a tube to the stop cock on my cooker. The steam comes out at 212 because the cooker isnt under pressure
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27675134 - 02/27/22 07:32 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
QM33 said: Ya I mean if you get your water from the city... We're we talking about sterilizing potable water or water? Water. Maybe don't go around telling people that boiling water sterilizes it, when it doesn't, it simply makes it just that, potable "po·ta·ble /ˈpōdəb(ə)l/ Learn to pronounce adjectiveFORMAL safe to drink; drinkable."
And sadly bro, my brotha, who I've taken a good amount of info from, you do need more research if you think 212 degree water sterilizes anything in any given amount of time, by the definition of sterile.
If that's what you consider sterile you would probably have the same result rinsing it with alcohol.
Sterile and SAL are bound by definition. Your only muddying your understanding of sterile.
And not only thermophiles,more so endospore.
Ya no. There are no thermophiles in any of the water that anyone uses for myco shit. You tried arguing that i need to do research on thermophiles and that is just flat wrong.
Maybe if I use water from a geiser at yellowstone
By definition steam sterilization works at atmospheric pressure with temps at 212 degrees, same as boiling water.
Sure if you want to be technical ther sterile may not be the word to use, but it works just fine for syringes. Ive done it countless times.
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27675178 - 02/27/22 08:25 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
natedawgnow said:
Quote:
Adas said: For steaming to be effective you need to run it for like 8 hours. Which is energy-intensive to say the least.
Yes if you're steaming grains, not water.
@forrester- dude fahts steamer is NOT above 212F. It cant be since it's not under pressure and it releases into atmospheric conditions. That steam is exiting his tube at 212 just like boiling water. Sounds like you all are confused about the difference between grains and water, and atmospheric pressures.
I made a thread where I turned my cooker into a steam pasteurizer doing the exact same thing as faht, connecting a tube to the stop cock on my cooker. The steam comes out at 212 because the cooker isnt under pressure
Your right on that one, I wanted to mention it but to often I feel like I'm poking the bare.
But why tho? You think thermopiles are on your ship lol?
Quote:
natedawgnow said: @forrester-Steam sterilization works just fine and steam is the same temp as boiling water so i disagree with the assertion that boiling water doesnt sterilize.
Quote:
QM33 said: All you have to do is read a little bit on endospores and thermolific bacterias and you would know that's is simply not true. Read the links. If you even understood how low acid canning worked you would know that's not true.
You said you think boiling water sterilizes. I told you understanding what boiling water won't kill will help you understand why that's not true. I said endospores and acid canning too, theirs more than thermophiles to work about when trying to sterilize.
And atmospheric steam sterilization is a vague definition only used in mushroom farming, it is not used in any other sterilization practice as far as I can't tell, and again is by definition not sterile. Although making something absolutely sterile and sterilizing something to the point of use is something I mentioned earlier, finding the balance of practicality, like many of us have .
Again, all you have to do is understand the hardest of the organism to kill, endospores and themrofiles, and you'll know what it takes to make something truly sterile, and even then it's based on SAL, not absolute.
Ya maybe sterile was the wrong word. But I mean in mushroom farming if your going to understand any 1 thing really well, ide say that should be it.
-------------------- OmManiPadmeHum,OmManiPadmeHum, OmManiPadMeHum... There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, there are also unknown unknowns. With great privilege comes great responsibility.
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MysticMycologist
Dirt Sherpa



Registered: 10/14/21
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow]
#27675186 - 02/27/22 08:30 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I agree that boiling water is probably fine to clean syringes as they probably don’t contain any endospores, and boiled tap water is clean enough for most of my uses. I’m not trying to be argumentative here, just generally curious about steam at standar pressure only being 212f.
Steam is emitted at almost the same temp and the boiling water producing it. If the boiling water is under pressure and is 250f, the steam leaving it would be the same temp, even if vented into standard pressure. The steam will rapidly cool down, of course, but it would still be much hotter than 212f when first leaving the pressurized boiler, would it not? Like if a super heated steam pipe under pressure ruptured, the dry, superheated steam leaving the pipe will be mush hotter than the boiling point of water at atmospheric pressure? Or am I making bad assumption do to my like of thermodynamic understanding?
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QM33
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Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Probably isn't something alot of people like to count on, and unless your syringe is already sterile in the package, in which case you need not sterilize it, there's a good chance it's been in the air, which is full of god knows what. A breeze of outside air container millions of spores of hundreds of organisms I'm sure, the same with a single breath from your mouth.
But ya there probably aren't endospores anywhere..
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33] 1
#27675228 - 02/27/22 09:02 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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As far as the cleaning of SHIPs goes, That’s why I made a point to say that the steam is blowing that already iso’d wiped area clear of anything the iso left behind because it does take longer than the 5 seconds I have the steam jet there to kill certain bacteria… I’m not worried that the water I put into the pc isn’t going to be sterilized by boiling it as I use treated city water.. same with the syringes.. I’m still going to be doing the same method I’ve been for the last 3 months and I’ve had 0 problems with it. BUT if I want to be absolutely sure the water/syringes are sterile when I use with something that’s really important not to lose.. let’s say, a culture I don’t want to risk something crazy happening with where if that gets facked I lose the culture, I’ll do the pc thing with it.
It’s just a matter of definition.. I think you’re both right.. there’s probably a very small chance that water contains something that doesn’t get killed above 212F using already treated city water but still a chance, albeit tiny.
It was just a matter of me changing the word sterile even when it probably is. But medically, it wouldn’t be classified as such.. it’s just about language.
I’m not going to change my methods because they’ve been working but if you’re having problems doing the boil/suck method, maybe there’s something fucked with your drinking water and you should consider a more hardy way of cleaning your water for myco use
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QM33
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Registered: 04/09/20
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: fahtster]
#27675234 - 02/27/22 09:09 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Totally!
Just like that don't pasteurize coir shit.
I failed all last year because I took the advice of a couple tcs recommending that. And I got a year of trichoderma.
The rules are not the same for all. Not all things are created equal.
And you can get away with far beyond sterile, I think we've all had that experience at least once or twice.
And with that said, treat you coir or do trials, don't assume shit with your ingredients!
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: fahtster]
#27675471 - 02/27/22 12:36 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
fahtster said: As far as the cleaning of SHIPs goes, That’s why I made a point to say that the steam is blowing that already iso’d wiped area clear of anything the iso left behind because it does take longer than the 5 seconds I have the steam jet there to kill certain bacteria… I’m not worried that the water I put into the pc isn’t going to be sterilized by boiling it as I use treated city water.. same with the syringes.. I’m still going to be doing the same method I’ve been for the last 3 months and I’ve had 0 problems with it. BUT if I want to be absolutely sure the water/syringes are sterile when I use with something that’s really important not to lose.. let’s say, a culture I don’t want to risk something crazy happening with where if that gets facked I lose the culture, I’ll do the pc thing with it.
It’s just a matter of definition.. I think you’re both right.. there’s probably a very small chance that water contains something that doesn’t get killed above 212F using already treated city water but still a chance, albeit tiny.
It was just a matter of me changing the word sterile even when it probably is. But medically, it wouldn’t be classified as such.. it’s just about language.
I’m not going to change my methods because they’ve been working but if you’re having problems doing the boil/suck method, maybe there’s something fucked with your drinking water and you should consider a more hardy way of cleaning your water for myco use
Bro dont change your methods, your results speak for themselves 
Seriously your grows blow me away when I consider how you do it.
@mysticmyco- how can the cooker be under significant pressure when it is venting? Sure it might hit 1 or 2 psi during the vent but that isnt much hotter than 212f and by the time it gets to the end of the tube and into atmospheric pressure it is absolutely cooled significantly.
250f is at 15psi which the steam definitely isnt at because, again, the stopcock is open and venting.
My point is simply that yes, it takes significant energy to sterilize grains at atmospheric pressures; But boiling works fine for aqueous solutions. If it didnt, microwave agar WOULD NOT WORK but we know it does.
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rockyfungus
dirty


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27675475 - 02/27/22 12:40 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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It's all about your water source and coir source. I've stopped recommending no pasteurization. Started biting me in the ass too.
I've been notified in many states that our water supply needed to be boiled due to contamination. The water coming from the taps is mostly fine. The dissolved minerals, chemicals, and hardness is more of a concern to me. Brain eating acanthamoeba or pathogens is quite rare.
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PrimalSoup
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow] 1
#27675494 - 02/27/22 12:52 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
natedawgnow said: By definition steam sterilization works at atmospheric pressure with temps at 212 degrees, same as boiling water.
No it doesn't. https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/disinfection/sterilization/steam.html
Quote:
The basic principle of steam sterilization, as accomplished in an autoclave, is to expose each item to direct steam contact at the required temperature and pressure for the specified time. Thus, there are four parameters of steam sterilization: steam, pressure, temperature, and time. The ideal steam for sterilization is dry saturated steam and entrained water (dryness fraction ≥97%).813, 819 Pressure serves as a means to obtain the high temperatures necessary to quickly kill microorganisms. Specific temperatures must be obtained to ensure the microbicidal activity. The two common steam-sterilizing temperatures are 121°C (250°F) and 132°C (270°F). These temperatures (and other high temperatures)830 must be maintained for a minimal time to kill microorganisms. Recognized minimum exposure periods for sterilization of wrapped healthcare supplies are 30 minutes at 121°C (250°F) in a gravity displacement sterilizer or 4 minutes at 132°C (270°F) in a prevacuum sterilizer (Table 7). At constant temperatures, sterilization times vary depending on the type of item (e.g., metal versus rubber, plastic, items with lumens), whether the item is wrapped or unwrapped, and the sterilizer type.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: PrimalSoup]
#27675498 - 02/27/22 12:54 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Dude, steam sterilization works at atmospheric pressure at 212f.
Ask anybody who does large scale edible production. Seriously I hate to bicker but you are way off base if you say that atmospheric steam sterilizing doesnt work
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow] 1
#27675500 - 02/27/22 12:55 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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How does a TC not know that you can steam sterilize supped sawdust and even grains at atmospheric pressure?
I've run thousands of blocks that were sterilized at atmospheric pressures as have dozens of other growers. Takes a while, but it works
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Edited by natedawgnow (02/27/22 12:56 PM)
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QM33
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Registered: 04/09/20
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow] 2
#27675527 - 02/27/22 01:12 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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He said it doesn't meet the definition of sterile for fucks sake! He didn't say it didn't work.
For like the fifth time, this is us understanding our balance of PRACTICALITY and TRUE STERILITY. Which again is not ABSOLUTE and is based on SAL!
The term steam "sterilization" is misleading. Sure it sterilizes 99% of bioburden, but thermopiles, and more importantly, ENDOSPORES, 2ill survive 212 for potentially 100s of hours. There's not enough research on it I think, again, and the more I thought about it it's probably because pressure cooking came out and people don't have any need to steam "sterilize", or maybe I should say atmosphericly sterilize.
But as mushroom cultivators have come to realize, we can't fit out substrates in the autoclaves we can afford, so we build steam apperatuses. Which by no mean accomplish what an autoclave can. And by no definition, there is absolutely no scientific proof that atmospheric steam sterilizes by definition.
Look at the links I posted a page or two back it talks about this specifically.
Or even reference p9s endospore thread, Iirc it has similar info. Endospores are primarily why pressure cookers we're invited I believe, because of the endospores that cause botulism more specifically, not thermophiles like geothermus stereobaccilus or whatever lol. But the 250F rating achieved at 15psi is however revolved around thermophile for the sake, as I think that common endospores die around 230 ish, where iirc some thermophiles like mentioned above can even grow in temps of 230! However also iirc the death rate drops significantly at like 240.
That's why I think more test need to be done, with modern technology, regarding our applications. Even if we could culture the botulism causing endospores , or a thermophile, and then steam it for different amounts of time and then test it for recover, then we may be able to more appropriately judge. But I can't find anything like that. Really it's a fools errand for a scientist, we have pressure cookers, duh. But like I said this is why I want biological indicator strips, for steam trials.
Ide love to see better info than I posted regarding endospores and thermophiles, besides p9s experiment as well.
-------------------- OmManiPadmeHum,OmManiPadmeHum, OmManiPadMeHum... There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, there are also unknown unknowns. With great privilege comes great responsibility.
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Edited by QM33 (02/27/22 01:19 PM)
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
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Loc: ation
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27675539 - 02/27/22 01:19 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I said in my post that steam sterilization works at atmospheric pressure
He literally quoted it and said "no it doesnt" and posted a link with highlighted sections saying that temps of 250f are required.
Not sure what else you take from his post but
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Adas
Lonely Dreamer



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow]
#27675545 - 02/27/22 01:22 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I wish I had the resources to build an X-ray sterilizing room so that I wouldn't have to heat-sterilize ever again. Imagine the convenience. You load an entire room full of substrates, let the X-ray run for half an hour or what, turn it off and you can use the substrates immediately. Every mycologist's dream! Also, minimal energy cost.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



Registered: 02/09/15
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow] 1
#27675546 - 02/27/22 01:22 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Honestly all of your opinions and links mean jack shit to me.
If boiled didnt work then microwaved agar wouldnt work, boiled syringes wouldnt work, atmospheric sterilizing wouldnt work, shit even acidic canning wouldnt work.
I will die on this hill mother fuckers
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QM33
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Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: natedawgnow]
#27675547 - 02/27/22 01:22 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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My bad I thought he said no it doesn't to you saying it sterilizes, not that at works. Of course it works. This is a huge topic for me. Understanding these things really allow people to produce on bigger scales. For reasons like not necessarily needing an autoclave and understanding why that is and how to work it ha.
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QM33
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Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27675553 - 02/27/22 01:25 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Hey now, I bet I could make an opinion that you thought was cool. But fine be like that.
Alot of things work man, again your just muddying the waters. Whatever I still like you.
And as far as acidic canning goes, there is a reason it's acidic dumdum.
https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/the-importance-of-food-ph-in-commercial-canning-operations.html
I'll let you die on that hill. But hopefully others understand it's your choice, I don't want you to die. I actually think you'll be okay.
And your really taking all my research and on top of that shitting on it ha.
Read that link at least, might save someone's life in case you try to can somethinglol
-------------------- OmManiPadmeHum,OmManiPadmeHum, OmManiPadMeHum... There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, there are also unknown unknowns. With great privilege comes great responsibility.
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natedawgnow
Rocky mountain hood rat



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33] 2
#27675587 - 02/27/22 01:53 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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King crankey was supposed to give off the "we're coo this isnt that serious" vibe but it doesnt always work 
Yes I understand that the acidity helps it's just a point to be made, and only one of at least 4 that I was making.
I've been doing this a long ass time and the main takeaway is that everything I listed above works even though it isnt pressure sterilized because boiling is sufficient.
Boiling water for syringes is sufficient and that's all that really needs to be said
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