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Wiscoregon
Harmonic Surfer


Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 108
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ora]
#27456519 - 09/04/21 10:51 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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OK so two small facts I left out which makes it further strange. Also let me preface this by saying I'm entirely retarded.
1/ The spawn is definitely still bacterial. Very mild (a novice might not even see it), but I knew it was there and spawned it. 2/ I added 100g of Oyster Shell Flour to the sub (15.3%) wanting to add calcium to the mix but completely spacing out (it's been years since I last grew) that it's a PH buffer used in casings and jacked the PH to 8. A fact I learned searching after spawning like a dunce.
Should be a really interesting experiment I guess. A few facts I learned. Number one the bacteria I think is present serratia marcescens thrives in ph 8 But I also learned that the metabolites it puts off are highly acidic which would normally acidify the sub hard and ultimately suicide the bacteria itself (or at least put it in conditions it wont thrive).
Not sure what's gonna happen, but I would be most pleased if the high PH somehow increased the health of the cake by buffering against the metabolites. Or maybe the extra calcium is boosting it? I dont know, it's weird af, looks really healthy, and looking forward to seeing what happens. It's also obvious by now that my tub design is working well (also pleasing). 
@wahhwahh what's your spawn to sub ratio?
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wahhwahh
stupid idiot


Registered: 07/19/21
Posts: 296
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Wiscoregon]
#27456524 - 09/04/21 11:00 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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1:4-5 thereabouts, just eyeballed it. Then a 1" top layer on it, so prob like 1:6 all-in. The top layer stops right about an inch or so below the lid of a 6qt shoebox. I'm hoping all the extra moisture gives me bigger fruit than I've had before with 1:2-3 or so ratios.
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Wiscoregon
Harmonic Surfer


Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 108
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: wahhwahh]
#27456530 - 09/04/21 11:06 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Interesting, thank you for sharing that. Tbh I dont even know how to calculate spawn to sub ratio. Is it by volume or by weight? I just know that 650g CV uses 5 quarts spawn and translate that into my tub size. Maybe you can tell me what my spawn ratio is.
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wahhwahh
stupid idiot


Registered: 07/19/21
Posts: 296
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Wiscoregon]
#27456542 - 09/04/21 11:18 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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From what I've seen, if you're having contam problems it's probably a bad idea to up the sub because it leaves more time for contam to take over.
I just use volume for ratio.
This is the tek I'm following for these tubs:
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27426583
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Wiscoregon
Harmonic Surfer


Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 108
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: wahhwahh]
#27456552 - 09/04/21 11:31 PM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah definitely keeping it where it is, I actually did 6 quarts in the tub that followed and (being so impressed with the colonization rate of the first one) decided to put more oyster shell flour in, half as much 7.5%. Almost done with this culture thankfully. Everything else on agar is clean so far and into t2. Also thanks for sharing that.
Edited by Wiscoregon (09/04/21 11:35 PM)
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BrownBear
Warrior-Traveler



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 1,539
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Wiscoregon] 1
#27456591 - 09/05/21 01:21 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Are they actual quarts of spawn or myco quarts of spawn? A 650g brick of coir hydrated equals roughly 8 qts of substrate. So if you are using 5 actual qts to 8 qts of coir. That would be a 5:8 ratio so a little more spawn than a 1:2. If using 5 myco qts its roughly 4 actual qts of spawn which would make the ratio a 1:2.
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Guerrilla
Bumbaclart

Registered: 01/30/21 
Posts: 3,170
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: BrownBear] 1
#27456632 - 09/05/21 02:53 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Moved into a new place a month ago, got an electric oven so haven't done any form of mycology.
My gas set-up arrives tomorrow and I can't wait. Even had dreams about tubs fruiting LOL
Got so many varieties to get going.
-------------------- Being pissed on does not make you a real man.
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Guerrilla]
#27456753 - 09/05/21 07:30 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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If anyone would like to debate verts ability to grow on agar I'm over here.
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=27456751&page=0&vc=#27456751
Hoping I'll have an infection soon actually so I can try and grow it out lol
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sandman420
Saint PP



Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,384
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27456794 - 09/05/21 08:03 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: sandman420]
#27456806 - 09/05/21 08:16 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Ya did you see their recipe? They have raffinose for a carbon source. So you think it would grow on a regular Malt plate?
I'll add that to my thread tho
And ya I know Malt has carbon but it's clearly different.
Idk if you looked at the info I added to my thread but I found a study saying it won't grow on mycelium
""place in the casing, as it appears that L. fungicola cannot infect A. bisporus vegetative mycelium in the compost (Bernardo et al., 2004; Calonje et al., 2000a; Cross and Jacobs, 1968
""In agreement, Thapa and Jandaik (1987) demonstrated that, although spores of the pathogen can germinate in sterile water, germination and germ tube growth are greatly stimulated by the addition of nutrients. It was suggested that carbon is the stimulating factor. Fungistasis is not only caused by nutrient depletion; the production of inhibiting compounds also contributes to the inhibition of spore germination. In the case of L. fungicola, it was demonstrated that volatiles from compost inhibited spore germination
Edited by QM33 (09/05/21 08:23 AM)
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27456818 - 09/05/21 08:25 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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"" In casing, L. fungicola spores did not germinate, except in the immediate vicinity of Agaricus hyphae
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sandman420
Saint PP



Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,384
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27456830 - 09/05/21 08:35 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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The immediate vicinity of hyphae would be everywhere within days.
Yes it would grow on a regular medium too, the selective media is something that just favors it over say the mushroom mycelium or perhaps the regular mushroom mycelium wont grow on it at all.
As the paper says later in 1987 they demonstrated it can germinate in sterile water but is greatly enhanced by yada yada
Edited by sandman420 (09/05/21 08:40 AM)
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: sandman420]
#27456846 - 09/05/21 08:48 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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I know but I'm talking about agar. If the spores wouldn't germinate in casing without hyphae why would they germinate on a plate without hyphae
And if I understand correctly there is a difference between hyphae and mycelium and hyphae is the first step towards a fruitbody.
Now clarify me here cause if anything this may be my fault, the edges of mycelium on a petri dish are not hyphae, mycelium itself is not hyphae, hyphae turns into primordia.
I would like to see it grown on a plate, isolated, without raffinose. Any links for that?
Damn quirk, pace yourself ha. Good luck with the cement mixer, you try it yet? I had no luck with a 3 cubic foot, couldn't even mix 30lbish of sub at a time
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sandman420
Saint PP



Registered: 06/17/04
Posts: 5,384
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27456852 - 09/05/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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That was an earlier study. If they will germinate in sterile water on the (much much) later study then it's reasonable to assume they will germinate practically anywhere wet.
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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27456853 - 09/05/21 08:54 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hyphae is a cell, mycelium is an organism of dikaryotic hyphae
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Wall.E]
#27456880 - 09/05/21 09:14 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
sandman420 said: That was an earlier study. If they will germinate in sterile water on the (much much) later study then it's reasonable to assume they will germinate practically anywhere wet.
Just because the spores germinate doesn't mean they have appropriate means to grow.
My points not that it isn't present, but if it will really effect mycelium. Would it even grow next to it. And if the spores are present in a mushroom culture that was not previously infected I would believe that culture to grow out much more appropriately than trying to grow a clone from an infected mushroom.
Quote:
Wall.E said: Hyphae is a cell, mycelium is an organism of dikaryotic hyphae
There are different types of hyphae as well From wiki "" Generative hyphae are relatively undifferentiated and can develop reproductive structures. They are typically thin-walled, occasionally developing slightly thickened walls, usually have frequent septa, and may or may not have clamp connections. They may be embedded in mucilage or gelatinized materials. Skeletal hyphae are of two basic types. The classical form is thick-walled and very long in comparison to the frequently septate generative hyphae, which are unbranched or rarely branched, with little cell content. They have few septa and lack clamp connections. Fusiform skeletal hyphae are the second form of skeletal hyphae. Unlike typical skeletal hyphae these are swollen centrally and often exceedingly broad, hence giving the hypha a fusiform shape. Binding hyphae are thick-walled and frequent branched. Often they resemble deer antlers or defoliated trees because of the many tapering branches. Also from wiki ""Hyphae may be modified in many different ways to serve specific functions. Some parasitic fungi form haustoria that function in absorption within the host cells.
Definition haus·to·ri·um /hôˈstôrēəm/ nounBOTANY plural noun: haustoria a slender projection from the root of a parasitic plant, such as a dodder, or from the hyphae of a parasitic fungus, enabling the parasite to penetrate the tissues of its host and absorb nutrients from it.
I think we all know what molds look like isolated on agar. Except maybe vert..
AND! EDIT
honestly your steering me a little bit sandman. But now I'm almost wondering if a mushroom culture dish is contaminated with vert spores, if what we see on some plates isn't vert myc, but the mycelium reacting the the parasite.
Edited by QM33 (09/05/21 09:20 AM)
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Wall.E
Bacteria's Bitch



Registered: 06/05/20
Posts: 2,860
Loc: Fungal Void
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27456895 - 09/05/21 09:27 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Strange, it looks like their definition holds it as a cell. I wonder what the definition of mycelium is….
-------------------- Life’s shit, but I’m loving it
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gone-pear-shaped
Stranger than fiction

Registered: 10/30/17
Posts: 822
Last seen: 5 months, 17 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: QM33]
#27456896 - 09/05/21 09:28 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
QM33 said: I know but I'm talking about agar. If the spores wouldn't germinate in casing without hyphae why would they germinate on a plate without hyphae
Isn't that pretty normal? If molds grew readily on casings, we wouldn't use them as casings.
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Ora
Stranger


Registered: 07/09/21
Posts: 734
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Wall.E]
#27456898 - 09/05/21 09:29 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Atmoz I found some info on short tubs vs taller and the consensus seems to be taller holds more air so it's easier to dial in FAE so it's more self regulating whereas shorter tubs have less air and a breeze or no breeze can impact the conditions more extremely.
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Wall.E]
#27456907 - 09/05/21 09:36 AM (2 years, 4 months ago) |
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Is all aerial myc hyphae? On a 2 dimensional plane like agar would it even produce hyphae beyond the edges? I'm sure it would in a substrate.
In if the purpose of hyphae is growth, I wonder if it has potential to grow past vert spores without being infected...
And what do you mean pear?
Whats normal?
Apperantly vert spores in casing is the most common case of vert, in bottom mushroom farming. But assuming they prep their casing right it probably comes in from being dirty while in the fruiting room, not bad inoculant, or spawn.
And I think I get what your saying actually, it makes since it hits the fruits and not the casing. And that's not my point.
My point is I don't think vert myceloum will grow on a regular petri dish.
When people say they're seeing vert on a dish it's either bacteria, Or like I just said in New she'd light the reaction of the mushroom mycelium to the parasite that is vert. Fungicola
But at this point I'm still convinced that vert won't grow in absence of either fruitbody/primordia/or hyphae that is destined to be primordia
Why I'm going to try and isolate vert on agar without raffinose.
I'm not saying vert won't be on agar, but I don't think we're actually seeing vert mycelium, this white mold everyone talks about but nobodies seen. I've seen what happens to fruits. And I've even seen the fuzz that grows on them and maybe even the tubs they grew in. But noone can seem to differentiate it on a petri dish
Unless someone can find that for me real quick
Show me something better and show me the vert vs mushmyc!
Quote:
Mad Season said: [
Quote:
blindingleaf said: here is a good pic of a hidden contam. its verticillium fungicola and its a white mold. it was a nuisance to me for many months. found out it was riding on the myc, but would not show itself until a week+ after full colonization of plate. top left is vert only top right is vert + cube mycelium after plate consolidated for a week or two bottom plate is healthy cube mycelium after 2 week consolidation.

note the intertwined plate has a 3d fuzz look to it. starts in the middle, and works its way out

Meh I don't see it.
Lol I'm sure you guys hate me
Edited by QM33 (09/05/21 09:47 AM)
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