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Feasoghorm

Registered: 10/24/18
Posts: 4,384
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal]
#27416282 - 08/06/21 01:26 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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multifractal
Student


Registered: 05/08/15
Posts: 1,019
Loc: Cumtown
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Feasoghorm] 1
#27416285 - 08/06/21 01:27 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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It always interests me how people are so comfortable saying things are true that they themselves don't know to be true.
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Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal]
#27416286 - 08/06/21 01:30 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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TedsDead



Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 4,998
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Josex]
#27416324 - 08/06/21 02:35 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Derp ya. Best to comment only if u have experience with the situation. Otherwise whats the point oh ya... ego. Eat more shrooms
-------------------- weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed... -the fabulous furry freak bros If you can buy it, you can burn it!
https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396
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gone-pear-shaped
Stranger than fiction

Registered: 10/30/17
Posts: 822
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal] 1
#27416356 - 08/06/21 04:09 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
multifractal said: It always interests me how people are so comfortable saying things are true that they themselves don't know to be true.
Agreed. Yet in this hobby, I find myself saying more things that I don't know to be true than in other endeavors. The details aren't well studied and published. The other day I told someone to transfer myc away from contam, not vice versa. That's the way everyone does it, but I don't know why for sure, and I don't know if there are circumstances where doing it the other way is better.
I think the only way to speak from a place of certainty is to test every aspect of cultivation. That would be a full time job for several people. We will have to settle for dogma.
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The Fresh Prints
Smell ya later



Registered: 05/19/12
Posts: 1,377
Loc: Bel-Air
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal]
#27416440 - 08/06/21 07:20 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
multifractal said: This variety comes from a clone culture so it is unlikely crosses will be occurring since di-mon mating is off the table(even so crossing might be possible, I'm not sure)
For the record, that PEUxMM cross was made using PEU MS and a Melmak clone culture.

^Exact same Melmak clone on the left. Mixed spawn on the right

^This was the pheno that popped up in a different mixed bag.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Was that ms spawn of one variety mixed with clone spawn of another, or were both sets of spawn from clone?
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27416547 - 08/06/21 08:28 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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I did spore mixes lately, and I almost feel like too much breeding occurred for me to get anything close to what I might have wanted in some cases. I've recently thought it might be more valuable to mix spawn because you'll get less breeding..? I had a tub I mixed spawn on before, and had much more varied results. All the tubs I've made recently by mixing spores, all the shrooms in them look nearly identical..although different than the original strains used.. mixing spawn seemed to produce a majority of this or that, but a small amount of otherwise interesting specimens, but I only did that twice.. I just fruited like 10 tubs that were spores mixed and I found 1 fruit worth taking a print from imo
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LtLurker
Lost Sailor



Registered: 01/03/18
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal] 1
#27416555 - 08/06/21 08:32 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Feasoghorm said: It's not an efficient way to go about a cross, but it does happen.
Quote:
multifractal said: Could you provide a citation on that?
The process is called anastomosis and it can happen at any point during myc's growth. Seems counter intuitive when myc sectors, but yea, you can attempt to hybridize with myc in a bunch of ways, including putting 2 different spawn jars in the same tub. Not efficient but possible.
Quote:
QM33 said: I did spore mixes lately, and I almost feel like too much breeding occurred for me to get anything close to what I might have wanted in some cases. I've recently thought it might be more valuable to mix spawn because you'll get less breeding..? I had a tub I mixed spawn on before, and had much more varied results. All the tubs I've made recently by mixing spores, all the shrooms in them look nearly identical..although different than the original strains used.. mixing spawn seemed to produce a majority of this or that, but a small amount of otherwise interesting specimens, but I only did that twice.. I just fruited like 10 tubs that were spores mixed and I found 1 fruit worth taking a print from imo
Usually you need to run the second generation to start seeing changes. First gen doesn't usually show ressesive traits and hybrids just look like typical fruits. If you check out the Rusty White project or see that old APE flow chart, you see it took them a couple gens and some selections to show and then stabilize the traits.
Edited by LtLurker (08/06/21 08:35 AM)
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fahtster
Now With 33%More Faht



Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 9,270
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: LtLurker] 1
#27416577 - 08/06/21 08:44 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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These are the f1 of PE and Aa+ (mixed spores)
Pea+
Nothing too exciting but then the spores from one of those fruits did this on the next grow:

Faht
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multifractal
Student


Registered: 05/08/15
Posts: 1,019
Loc: Cumtown
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: LtLurker]
#27416588 - 08/06/21 08:51 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes, I'm familiar with anastomosis. Anastomosis is a general term for fusion and does not imply di-di fusion. I find nothing to support that two distinct haploid dikaryotic hyphae fuse in this manner. Mixing grain spawn can easily produce crosses simply by di-mon or mon-mon mating also called the buller phenomenon. A clone culture with a MS culture would produce crosses through di-mon. By citation, I meant something other than a post on this thread, a paper or article that clearly outlines that strains can cross from two distinct haploid pair dikaryons exchanging nuclei. I know, a tall order. I'm not saying this doesn't occur but that scientific literature on the matter is difficult to find. I'd love to see some information either way.
Edited by multifractal (08/06/21 09:01 AM)
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Bacchuschillin
Wanderer

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 1,082
Loc: USA
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal]
#27416592 - 08/06/21 08:57 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Multifractal the true scholar!
-------------------- Eat, Drink, Smoke, and be Merry!🍻
Just Be Chill
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The Fresh Prints
Smell ya later



Registered: 05/19/12
Posts: 1,377
Loc: Bel-Air
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Stipe-n Cap]
#27416593 - 08/06/21 09:00 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
p9hu7 said: Was that ms spawn of one variety mixed with clone spawn of another, or were both sets of spawn from clone?
Yes MS PEU spawn, Melmak clone spawn
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: LtLurker]
#27416596 - 08/06/21 09:00 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Anastomosis occurs between compatible monokaryons, and dikaryons to compatible monokaryones via buller phenomenon, but not between dikaryons as they are no longer capable of receiving nuclei.
That's why he was asking for a citation regarding dikaryons fusing and exchanging nuclei.
Edit:
Fuck I'm slow to the party lol, he already answered.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
The Fresh Prints said: Yes MS PEU spawn, Melmak clone spawn
Ok this makes sense as there should still be some available monokaryotic hyphae present in the MS culture to create crosses. Two clone cultures shouldn't be able to exchange nuclei.
Whoops on the double post.
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QM33
(NOT A PUPPET!) ❤❤❤❤❤



Registered: 04/09/20
Posts: 4,739
Loc: Oregon
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal]
#27416599 - 08/06/21 09:03 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Im so impatient i guess lol. I guess I knew that. And honestly I was pretty impressed with some white rabbit phenos I got I think and plan to mess with those, and that one print I made.
I do like the idea of Ms x clone culture.
I've also wondered if your sporeA to sporeB ration makes a difference. I made some plates with a solution of Like 95%ape-5%pf if that, and the whole tub was red and very typical looking. Same thing with a gandalfxpf. Definetly surprised me, but definitely non look like my regular pf. They both seemed to grow on agar and grain much faster than their albino donors.
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LtLurker
Lost Sailor



Registered: 01/03/18
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal]
#27416604 - 08/06/21 09:11 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
multifractal said: Yes, I'm familiar with anastomosis. Anastomosis is a general term for fusion and does not imply di-di fusion. I find nothing to support that two distinct haploid dikaryotic hyphae fuse in this manner. Mixing grain spawn can easily produce crosses simply by di-mon or mon-mon mating also called the buller phenomenon. A clone culture with a MS culture would produce crosses through di-mon. By citation, I meant something other than a post on this thread, a paper or article that clearly outlines that strains can cross from two distinct haploid pair dikaryons exchanging nuclei. I know, a tall order. I'm not saying this doesn't occur but that scientific literature on the matter is difficult to find. I'd love to see some information either way.
I can only tell you that it does work. I'm not a scientist, I just grow mushrooms. I don't have studies on hand and not interested enough to search tbh.
When 2 monokaryotics merge they become Dikaryotic, but we know a single fruit contains thousands of strains working together and myc sectors out with fewer. Is that not evidence of more anastosmosis after dikaryotic myc is made already?
Edited by LtLurker (08/06/21 09:15 AM)
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multifractal
Student


Registered: 05/08/15
Posts: 1,019
Loc: Cumtown
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: LtLurker] 1
#27416608 - 08/06/21 09:17 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not sure how you could be so confident of that. There could be many other phenomena occurring to explain what you see in your plastic tubs of mushrooms but glad you have faith. 
And we don't know a fruit contains thousands of "strains" beyond mutations occurring in DNA replication. That would be called genetic mosaicism and it shouldn't be assumed to exist. It's been detected in the honey fungus where a mushroom had 9 genotypes (not thousands) through a process of diploid mycelium formation, and not di-di mating, but that could easily be an exception for that species. I plan to do DNA sequencing of a cubensis clone culture in the future.
Edited by multifractal (08/06/21 09:27 AM)
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LtLurker
Lost Sailor



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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal] 1
#27416617 - 08/06/21 09:25 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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ew, not faith. No i just trust the people I learned from that have a far better grasp on the science than I do(like every single person that's not a scientist).
Plus, we can plainly see this happen when spawn with 2 different recessive traits are mixed. IE a red spore spawn mixed with leucistic spawn will give some fruits with red spore, some fruits that're white, and some fruits that're 100% normal because the mixed genetics are preventing the recessive traits from presenting. This happens often enough by accident, go ahead and do a test yourself.
But w/e, beleive me or don't. Keep searching for your answer to satisfy your doubt.
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Stipe-n Cap


Registered: 08/04/12
Posts: 7,623
Loc: Canada
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: multifractal]
#27416620 - 08/06/21 09:28 AM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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We all know that I'm a proponent of mosaicism, but dikaryons don't anastosmose in the Hymenogastraceae family.
But there is a thread dedicated to this discussion....
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