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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Samskara92]
#26982929 - 10/13/20 08:26 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Should work, but might not. Just a cheap way to get anti-biotic agar. I also use it for experiments, and base agar media for various wood-lovers.
T-Gel antibacterial agar (updated original recipe). Good luck.
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BrownBear
Warrior-Traveler


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26982938 - 10/13/20 08:31 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Should work, but might not. Just a cheap way to get anti-biotic agar. I also use it for experiments, and base agar media for various wood-lovers.
T-Gel antibacterial agar (updated original recipe). Good luck.
I read somewhere that myc will grow on non nutrient agar whereas bacteria cannot. If it works it would save money. Has anyone tried this?
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Becky G. Spot
Good Necky Becky

Registered: 10/12/20
Posts: 111
Loc: The Sunny Side
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Samskara92]
#26982939 - 10/13/20 08:33 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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@samskara
I was a cunt hair away from buying the T-shirt version of your avatar LOL! 😅
The code word me and my ex had when we talked about mushrooms in places we might be overheard was "jellyfish", and then I saw that psychedelic jellyfish on a shirt and in retrospect I should have pulled the trigger on it. I miss that shirt and never even owned it.
😘
-------------------- - Becky G. Ditch the double standards boys. Girls like to have fun as much as you do.
Sisters if you find yourself hating, read my bio.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: BrownBear]
#26982941 - 10/13/20 08:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Fungi cant grow without nutrients, end. What they probably mean is an agar absent of common carbon sources, like sugar or starch. The answer is yes. As I previously posted, I can grow Cubensis on plant phenols, absent of common carbon sources, like sugar or starch.
Nutrients is a generic term, in reality this means: Carbon, Nitrogen, Potassium, so on.
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BrownBear
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26982953 - 10/13/20 08:42 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: Fungi cant grow without nutrients, end. What they probably mean is an agar absent of common carbon sources, like sugar or starch. The answer is yes. As I previously posted, I can grow Cubensis on plant phenols, absent of common carbon sources, like sugar or starch.
Nutrients is a generic term, in reality this means: Carbon, Nitrogen, Potassium, so on.
I get what you're saying but the difference between fungi and bacteria is that bacteria cannot replicate and spread without a food source. Whereas fungi can replicate and spread out in search of food because the colony can transport nutrients out to where ever it needs it. So in theory, when transferring bacteria contaminated mush culture, it can out run the bacteria on a no added nutrient agar dish. Perhaps I am wrong. But has anyone tried this method?
Edit: just so I am making myself clear. If you take a bacterial mush culture wedge from one dish a transfer it to another dish. The bacteria will essentially be restricted to the wedge whereas the myc can and will spread to the new agar dish in search of food. The myc would simply be yransporting nutients from the original wedge used to inoculate the new dish.
Edited by BrownBear (10/13/20 09:03 AM)
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: BrownBear]
#26982971 - 10/13/20 09:00 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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That still only really works if the bacteria is not getting carbon, or is somehow restricted (inhibited by materials, pH, so on), in terms of reproduction.
Carbon source: [Common sugars], germinates and grows almost anything, almost everything can utilize it as carbon. Carbon source: [Common starch], germinates and grows almost anything, almost everything can utilize it as carbon. Carbon source: [Special], germinates and grows almost nothing, almost nothing can utilize it as carbon.
So I select, carbon source [Special]
I have contamination that 'cannot' utilize [Special] as carbon, and its also inhibited by materials, pH (acidic). At the same time I have a fungi I want, that 'can' utilize [Special] as a carbon source.
----
Carbon source: [Cellulose], when complex it doesn't support germination, fungi utilize it as carbon.
Edited by Ferather (10/16/20 09:30 AM)
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footpath
ὕδωρχοίρος

Registered: 07/16/19
Posts: 1,367
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: BrownBear]
#26982973 - 10/13/20 09:01 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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In theory, but not always practice.
One of my last projects before shutting down shop last March was riddled with a sneaky bacterial nuisance. Grew weird and slow transfer after transfer and never did any hyphal knotting and expanded to grain like shite...
     ...aside from one small ridge in a swab plate.
 (looks kinda like a morel/cube hybrid.. I definitely considered an exotic/gourmet spore mixup.) A lot of them ended up like this after many weeks.
 I know, superficially it kind of looks like mold, but the smell was a dead-ringer for cube myc. Eventually I isolated this before isolating a cube culture and tossed the syringe.
 I've had plenty of success running myc away from contaminants with low-nutrient media, but that did fuck-all in this circumstance. Also, mold is often a much more vigorous contamination, so, if that's what you've got, I don't see low-nutrient media doing too much extra good. Definitely more of a hassle than just trying some new spores.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: footpath]
#26982983 - 10/13/20 09:07 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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By low nutrient, you mean low ratio, but the same actual nutrients (sugars etc)?
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BrownBear
Warrior-Traveler


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26982985 - 10/13/20 09:08 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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So the agar agar used is a nutrient source all by itself?
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Darkshadow
Waiting In The Shadows


Registered: 06/11/20
Posts: 55
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26982989 - 10/13/20 09:10 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Shook these pint jars on 10/8, how much longer should I wait to put these to a bulk substrate? Thanks for any recommendations.
-------------------- Ignored by me? Leave a rating.
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footpath
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26982990 - 10/13/20 09:12 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: By low nutrient, you mean low ratio, but the same actual nutrients (sugars etc)?
Correct. So, agar agar with as low as 10% malt extract. I've never tried with agar as the sole nutrient source, so I definitely wasn't thorough in that regard.
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: BrownBear]
#26982992 - 10/13/20 09:13 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Iambrownbear said: So the agar agar used is a nutrient source all by itself?
Agar is a two part polysaccharide (agarose and agaropectin, types of carbohydrate), however fungi and bacteria 'cannot' utilize it as carbon.
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ttching8475
Spawn

Registered: 03/01/18
Posts: 739
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather] 1
#26982995 - 10/13/20 09:14 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: I’m going to be frank; I’ve seen you going on about T gel, wood pegs, paper substrates, etc yet I haven’t the slightest idea where you’re going with all this. So far it looks like a lot of R&D to grow a small number of fruits.
You're doing that thing again where you totally overlook the data provided and fail to apply it. No offense but I had to explain my yield results to you twice, before you understood it. You have chosen to select the tea directly as your point of view, in fact you totally missed the point (again).
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Research and understanding of biological process is great but if it cannot translate into results it’s not much use to most people here. I once accidentally grew cubes on a wood based medium, very little flour or added supplements. The fruits grew and sporulated. But the yield was crap, aside as a momentary interesting observation on the resilience of the species it was an utterly useless grow.
You didn't apply experience and information on wood, if we are talking plain wood, even oyster produces less yield on plain wood, than modified wood. I have already explained about the acidic pH and lack of nitrogen in wood, Cubensis likes a much higher pH and nitrogen ratio.
Some people already understand me, and are applying my methods to their grows (I even got large donations).
The oyster clone I’m working on loves the tea agar.

I’m going to be plugging some logs and I included some black tea in the hydrating boil of the dowels before PC’ing and inoculating them with RGS. Colonization has been fast & vigorous.

Here is RW on tea agar:

The cube is slower on tea agar, but I used it to verify a clean and select a more vigorous culture before putting it to grains. I have a master of that culture colonizing now.
Experimenting with growing on enriched paper substrates doesn’t seem all that different from experimenting with growing on polar fleece soaked in an agar mix. While probably not the solution for everyone, for apartment dwellers, being able to just make agar, LC and grow using enriched cat litter or some blankets is going to be a more efficient use of space than traditional growing methods are.
-------------------- LAGM 2.022
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: ttching8475]
#26982998 - 10/13/20 09:16 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26983023 - 10/13/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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I once put oysters on T-Gel (plain, no ME), but left the leaf in to see what would happen, ultimately it made a mess in terms of growth. When the mycelium reached the pockets of nutritional leaf (cellulose, nitrogen, so on), growth went potty.
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BrownBear
Warrior-Traveler


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26983025 - 10/13/20 09:26 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said:
Quote:
Iambrownbear said: So the agar agar used is a nutrient source all by itself?
Agar is a two part polysaccharide (agarose and agaropectin, types of carbohydrate), however fungi and bacteria 'cannot' utilize it as carbon.
So then essentially its "non nutritive"?Which would leave the bacteria restricted to the wedge used to inoculate the no added nutient plate. Wouldn't this give the mycelium the ability to colonize the new plate and leave the bacteria behind?
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Ferather
Mycological



Registered: 03/19/15
Posts: 6,325
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: BrownBear]
#26983029 - 10/13/20 09:29 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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No, the fungi has no carbon source (cannot utilize, decay agar), and probably there is no notable nitrogen, potassium in the agar either. It would be a thing by now otherwise. Due to the above reason, you add soluble nutrients to the agar as the complete food source (carbon, nitrogen, so on).
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Becky G. Spot
Good Necky Becky

Registered: 10/12/20
Posts: 111
Loc: The Sunny Side
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Darkshadow]
#26983038 - 10/13/20 09:34 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darkshadow said: Shook these pint jars on 10/8, how much longer should I wait to put these to a bulk substrate? Thanks for any recommendations.

Those are pints? Not quarts?
Not all of the grains don't look fully colonized to my eyes, and I cant tell for sure looking through the fogginess/condensation but the top of the jars looks a bit thick and matted, which IME isn't a good sign.
Others will weigh in I'm sure. 
XOXOX
-------------------- - Becky G. Ditch the double standards boys. Girls like to have fun as much as you do.
Sisters if you find yourself hating, read my bio.
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Gastronomicus
3-0-G



Registered: 03/31/05
Posts: 9,727
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Darkshadow]
#26983040 - 10/13/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Darkshadow said: Shook these pint jars on 10/8, how much longer should I wait to put these to a bulk substrate? Thanks for any recommendations.

They look ready to me but I don't use oats
-------------------- Make my Funk the P Funk, I wants to get Funked up
LAGM2024
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BrownBear
Warrior-Traveler


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Ferather]
#26983041 - 10/13/20 09:35 AM (3 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferather said: No, the fungi has no carbon source (cannot utilize, decay agar), and probably there is no notable nitrogen, potassium in the agar either. It would be a thing by now otherwise. Due to the above reason, you add soluble nutrients to the agar as the complete food source (carbon, nitrogen, so on).
But the mycelium does have a nutrient source. The original agar wedge would have the nutients. Like I stated on the last page. Bacteria will not typically colonize a substrate without nutrients while fungi can because it can transport nutients from the original agar wedge out to where its needed in order to search for another food source. I'm sure growth would be slow but I don't see why it woildn't be a viable option for transferring away from bacteria. I only mean bacteria though because all fungi have this ability so mold can do the same thing.
Edited by BrownBear (10/13/20 10:19 AM)
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