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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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If the jar is super hot when you’re popping the PC open a mold spore ain’t going to live long. Even if one magic bulleted past the threads it’s landing in super hot grain. It’s likely dead in 5.
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junk_f00d



Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Tight Lunchbox said: A lot of people get by with unmodified lids on jars and media bottles, some of them are tc's
Yeah, I tend to remind myself of this all the time with my plastic lids. Though I disagree about the vaccuum being significant, IMO it's more likely of a function of how extreme the tempature difference is when removing the jars. Very extreme tempature differences will be much more likely to suck contams in.
Quote:
Pastywhyte said:
If the jar is super hot when you’re popping the PC open a mold spore ain’t going to live long. Even if one magic bulleted past the threads it’s landing in super hot grain. It’s likely dead in 5.
If that were true it would imply we don't need to be PC'ing for nearly as long as we do.
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


Registered: 11/06/16
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: junk_f00d]
#26877269 - 08/12/20 05:52 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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We pc to kill bacterial endospores.
Vacuum can be created by cooling grain jars, just as a vacuum is created as your pc cools. That's why your pc will suck in a bunch of air once it reaches zero psi and the weight is removed.
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junk_f00d



Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Tight Lunchbox said: We pc to kill bacterial endospores.
Vacuum can be created by cooling grain jars, just as a vacuum is created as your pc cools. That's why your pc will suck in a bunch of air once it reaches zero psi and the weight is removed.
Well, yeah, but not _only_ endospores. Obviously we want to kill trich and friends too.. I'm not really sure what that was intended to imply, since all spores are pretty tough to kill.
And yes I understand what a vaccuum is, lol. That's my whole point.
At any rate, I'm going to start waiting until the PC isn't hot to the touch. I've had a mysterious bout of contaminations lately that coincedentially aligns with my new habit of yanking jars out ASAP (I'm running my PC way more lately, so often I try to squeeze multiple cycles in a day).
Just hear me out as I've been troubleshooting my contam issue for months now: - I've tested my hood multiple times by holding open agar plates for 30 seconds at various positions and elevations and it always passes. My agar work is almost always contam free. - My grain prep is always close to perfect as I can get it. The issue persist when doing oats and millet (the only grains I buy right now, implying it's not just the oats or something). - And I'm pretty sure it's not my technique either as I never really had issues with my SAB that I used for years, and I've watched enough videos on proper A2G and G2G technique when in front of a hood (it's also dead simple..).
IDK, hopefully this is the cause (I know you guys don't think so, but you should see how loose these lids are when I remove them). That'd be an easy fix. I still grow successfully but my grain contamination has been averaging like 20-30% lately, so something's clearly up.
One last thing:
Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Even if one magic bulleted past the threads it’s landing in super hot grain. It’s likely dead in 5.
It's not really a magic bullet, since the air _is_ going up the threads and into the jar. It's more like it's along for the ride, as far as I understand it.
Edited by junk_f00d (08/12/20 06:06 PM)
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: junk_f00d]
#26877284 - 08/12/20 06:10 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
If you have a flow hood then I'd suggest letting the pc cool enough to handle and then opening it up and doing all of your post pc stuff in front of the hood.
-------------------- "it's all a joke between mom contractions and coffin fittings" The most useful tool for noobs
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Pastywhyte
Say hello to my little friend



Registered: 09/15/12
Posts: 37,810
Loc: Canada
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Trich spores die at 130F in 30 min. At 212 F they die in seconds.
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Pastywhyte]
#26877311 - 08/12/20 06:26 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think what he was getting at is that some spores could potentially contaminate the grains as the jars continue to cool below the temp required to terminate trich and other molds.
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junk_f00d



Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Pastywhyte said: Trich spores die at 130F in 30 min. At 212 F they die in seconds.
Intersting, I was trying to find the numbers for trich spores. If that's the case I still don't know how trich is getting in my jars. Do you have a source handy for that info? I can't seem to find exact numbers for this
Quote:
I think what he was getting at is that some spores could potentially contaminate the grains as the jars continue to cool below the temp required to terminate trich and other molds.
And yes that is correct, but trich is a big offender in my spawn still. I remember reading post from RR about this too
Edited by junk_f00d (08/12/20 06:31 PM)
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: junk_f00d]
#26877328 - 08/12/20 06:36 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Given the temps used for proper pasteurization it's probably fair to assume pasty's numbers are close.
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


Registered: 11/06/16
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How long are you pc'ing and at what pressure? Are you venting for ten minutes? If all that is in check then opening the pc in front of your hood should let you know if loose lids are causing your contam woes.
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junk_f00d



Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Tight Lunchbox said: How long are you pc'ing and at what pressure? Are you venting for ten minutes? If all that is in check then opening the pc in front of your hood should let you know if loose lids are causing your contam woes.
Ten minute vent, PC'ing at least 2.5 hours at 15psi. Thanks for the tip, I'm happy to see a possible solution to this issue; I've been getting so tired of troubleshooting with no luck and I've been running out of ideas. From now on I'll start either letting the PC cool for like 6 hours or only remove jars in front of PC.
And IDK I have doubts that trich spores would die that easy (30 minutes at 130F just seems too weak, spores are generally pretty tough).
Also, I don't think pastuerization is intended to kill spores (unless you mean double pastuerization?) but I could be wrong.
Edited by junk_f00d (08/12/20 06:45 PM)
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: junk_f00d]
#26877367 - 08/12/20 06:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43965604/PDF
While it doesn't back up pasty's claim or mention trich specifically, it does support the idea that pasteurization temps kill other common molds. Pasteurization is some pretty old tech but it works pretty good I think.
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Yeetusdeetus


Registered: 11/23/19
Posts: 1,242
Last seen: 7 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: junk_f00d]
#26877417 - 08/12/20 07:31 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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It’s a good thing your pc gets to near double that temp for at least 90 minutes when operated correctly lol
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Josex
#cheat_code


Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,995
Loc:
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: Yeetusdeetus]
#26877651 - 08/12/20 10:29 PM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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@junk_f00d, you seem to not trust plastic lids and having to loosen them before PC'ing them, so why don't you just seek that peace of mind and switch to metal and filters?
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junk_f00d



Registered: 12/04/15
Posts: 933
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Quote:
Josex said: @junk_f00d, you seem to not trust plastic lids and having to loosen them before PC'ing them, so why don't you just seek that peace of mind and switch to metal and filters? 
I have a lot of plastic lids (like 300+) so the switch would involve a lot of labor, and I like the look of the plastic. Plus, as mentioned earlier, other growers have success with plastic, implying it's just something dumb I'm doing, not the lids. I have run expirimental batches with metal lids and still had the same similar rates; really hoping being more careful about removing hot jars fixes my issue.
Quote:
Tight Lunchbox said: https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/IND43965604/PDF
While it doesn't back up pasty's claim or mention trich specifically, it does support the idea that pasteurization temps kill other common molds. Pasteurization is some pretty old tech but it works pretty good I think.
Thanks! Though not to come off as pendantic I don't know if I'm totally buying it, I haven't fully read the paper, but I'm skeptical of their claims because wikipedia straight up says, in their article on pastuerization, that it "does not kill mold spores". I'll read it in more detail tomorrow.
Edited by junk_f00d (08/13/20 01:38 AM)
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Tight Lunchbox
Drunk cat


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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: junk_f00d]
#26877908 - 08/13/20 05:31 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you are referring to the second paragraph in the wikipedia article, it seems that it is making a statement about bacterial endospores. It's hard to tell for sure without reading the books that are cited.
-------------------- "it's all a joke between mom contractions and coffin fittings" The most useful tool for noobs
Edited by Tight Lunchbox (08/13/20 05:39 AM)
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Celestialexplorer1



Registered: 03/25/20
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Does anybody use a portable stove for the pressure cooker and if so which one do they use? I have a portable induction stove and have to use an interface disc to use my PC but I loose too much heat to get to the right pressure unless the of and interface disc are set in exact right position which is a bitch to find.
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Phrontist
Determined



Registered: 07/17/13
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: junk_f00d]
#26878055 - 08/13/20 08:27 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
junk_f00d said: because wikipedia straight up says
Never, and I mean never, stop at Wikipedia if you want a definitive answer on something. Use it as a reference tool to find the real information.
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AlsetAlokin
Student

Registered: 07/30/20
Posts: 182
Last seen: 3 years, 20 days
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Quote:
Celestialexplorer1 said: Does anybody use a portable stove for the pressure cooker and if so which one do they use? I have a portable induction stove and have to use an interface disc to use my PC but I loose too much heat to get to the right pressure unless the of and interface disc are set in exact right position which is a bitch to find.
I've got a generic cusimax "cast iron" top single burner that works great for my 27qt AA. The entire thing gets very hot and it smells awful the first few times using it so I'd recommend using it on something fire resistant and someplace well ventilated.
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Celestialexplorer1



Registered: 03/25/20
Posts: 1,803
Loc: Floating in a tin can
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
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Re: Cultivation General Discussion [Re: AlsetAlokin]
#26878081 - 08/13/20 08:51 AM (3 years, 5 months ago) |
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thank you. Is it this one here CUSIMAX Portable Hot Plate Burner for Electric Cooking, 1500w Single Countertop Burner with Knob Control to Adjustable Temperature and Anti-Skid Feet Electric Stove for Dorm Office Home RVs, Compatible for All Cookwares https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RTSW8JS/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_znvnFbPM4W3JN
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 To spend just one moment in eternity
Edited by Celestialexplorer1 (08/13/20 08:51 AM)
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